/tg/Station 13

it's a pretty cool concept but too early in development for genuine feedback

What PK said, I like what the Design Document has to say but until this is in a far more developed stages there's not much for us to say.

There's a difference between a design document and a real playable game mode.

I'm sure other, more veteran, players of conversion game modes will have more to say however.

The thread is here for people to offer their thoughts on the gamemode and any suggestions they might have.

This reads like a fucking league of legends champion spotlight

Yeah it sounded like a Dota 2 hero when I first saw it

Thought Xhuis accidentally put a Dota 2 mod in our repo instead of somewhere else

I'm a huge fan of cult, so I already like this. It shows a lot of promise. +1

There's been a lot of commits made to the PR if you want to give feedback or ideas. You can find them at the PR body itself, but don't look if you don't want it spoiled.

I'm all for not getting wordlessly flashed-killed/blown as a borg in 80% of roundtypes. A+

This gamemode is officially DONE! Give your feedback here or on the PR.

Haven't played it yet but two very important thoughts:

1) The name. Ratvar? That sounds like some kind of rodent-king instead of some kind of mechanical god. I also have no idea how "Justiciar" plays into this, is he part of a broader Clockwork empire? I feel like the whole clockwork theme could've launched a much more coherent foe, think Vex from Destiny (http://www.destinypedia.com/Vex).

2) One thing I learned in my time playing and then in making changes to the game is that SS13 consistently loses experienced players while gaining new ones. This leads to a very hard limit in how experienced a server population can get with a single mode. I am among those active players that know every mode inside and out, and yet when I see that design document even as Oldman "Walls O' Text" Robustin, I feel like there's way too much to read. Judging from what I've been able to make of the mechanics, its going to be insanely overwhelming for most players to handle these roles and even with enough rounds there are not going to be enough competent Ratvar (ugh) worshippers to let the round reach its full potential.

Oldman has a very good point. Ratvar doesn't sound good, and like he said, I don't see anything about justice that involves summoning an old god that will (also) destroy everything. The PR is a long read but I feel like it really isn't that complicated. You just choose components and you get a thing, woo. Build some turrets, set up a base, Hail something other than Barfvar, I don't know man, the Vex was a really good example.

Now, this is my other thing. The borg conversion mode doesn't really seem like a problem. Like, you change all the borgs, okay... I guess it would be? I'd make the borgs when you convert them accidentally harmful to others around so people want to shut it down, like the longer it's alive the more ratvarian (i'm doing the oldman ugh) tech it has and thus the more deadly to people around it. Yes? No? I don't know, haven't played yet either because i'm in san francisco right now.

Oldman is right, Ratvar is a very shitty name.

i don't like it

it's gonna be super dope
there is so much content that will be added
a wiki page will be critical xhuis

The name is not changing. Ever.
The rest I can look into.

MORE NAR SIE FIGHTS

Played two rounds of "Worst God's Name Ever"'s cult. Both times Worst Name Ever was a little distraction to the real event of the round - the Grey Tide.

I also dislike his sprite for several reasons. First, it looks literally better than anything the game has - sans maybe lavaland shelters. Second, when he's actually moving, blinking and he has all those special effects, it physically hurts my eyes to look at him. If I had epilepsy, WNE's special effects would probably trigger it.

Make Ratvar and Nar-sie teleport around and fight each other when both are summoned, with how many constructs/cultists each has scale their health.

Give the anima constructs some light source holy shit.

How does it differ from Cult? I'm not talking about the details.

Ok played 2 rounds as a Ratvar (really?) Cultist:

1) I was right, its very overwhelming when you start off. There's no way the average ratvar player is going to be ever be able to competently fill their role in its current state.

2) The god clash is the best part of this mode, but realistically its never going to happen unless the cult v. cult mode changes the rules for summoning both gods.

3) The actual tactics for the cult was disappointing. Most of the recitations were pointless or felt like filler. The only things you actually use to capture/convert/combat other crew are ~~~invisible stunmines~~~ and goggles that give you an AOE stun attack. Compared to most of the other useless recitations, these goggles give a ~15 seconds stun on a 30 second cooldown that can be bypassed by quickly swapping out goggles. They're easy to make and easy to spam. I'd say its a big problem if not for the fact that Ratvar cultists lack any other useful combat tools, but its still a problem. An AOE stun baton that you can summon into your hand is a little crazy.

4) It's really hard for me to support any gameplay where you're dependent on invisible stunmines for defense. It's just bad.

5) The slab material seems really easy to cheese. You can virtually spam slabs, slabs produce material every so often, and then you dump the material into a cache for almost infinite materials.

6) Materials are a nightmare to collect. Theres very little reason for the cultists to "share" since they all need materials for various recitations, but somtimes I would accidentally dump 15+ materials into a cache when I meant to retrieve some and it would take ~1 minute of spam clicking to get those materials back. Even when I'm not accidentally dumping materials, when it comes time to gather mass materials for revenants or Ratvar, I'm still spending 2+ minutes spam clicking to gather them, its just not enjoyable. Please let me collect a cache by using my slab on it, then let me empty my self with a self_attack option.

7) Paralysis stuns aren't good either. No way for people (or victims) to tell that they're stunned or get a notification when the stun ends. Weaken is obvious, on the ground? Stunned. Not on the ground? Not stunned. Use it.

8) Using a recitation to talk is just busywork, make it one of the first options or just make it innate.

9) Not sure how I feel about many items being super-effective against Nar-Sien cultists. Does that mean Nar-Sien cultists will need to get buffs to their stuff v. Ratvar when cult v. cult becomes a thing?

10) Borg conversion is just in a bad place. Not only does it feel really easy (just stand near a borg for 6 seconds), but the AI/anyone else can easily identify/meta the borg's conversion and have it destroyed. While there's an obvious thematic connection to borgs, I feel like it places an undue amount of power in whether or not Ravar's cultists have a roboticist in their ranks.

11) How is the crew supposed to deal with Ratvar revenants and/or Ratvar summoning? There's no obvious counter to either.

There's a lot more to discuss but this is just what comes off the top of my head after 2 rounds.

Oldman Robustin wrote:
1) The name. Ratvar? That sounds like some kind of rodent-king instead of some kind of mechanical god. I also have no idea how "Justiciar" plays into this, is he part of a broader Clockwork empire? I feel like the whole clockwork theme could've launched a much more coherent foe, think Vex from Destiny (http://www.destinypedia.com/Vex).

I thought the mechanical rodent name was intended to give off a Skaven vibe.

Made an account today just to state how awesome this idea is! You have my support!

We need more official cults, and i particularly like this one, the sprites for Ratvar and his constructs are amazing!~<3
Nar-sie having a rival is such a fun little idea with so many implications! I rather enjoyed last round's big fight between the two!

I recommend a change of name though, "Ratvar" just isn't doing the Clockwork Justiciar much justice.
Recommended names: Rivatar / Ritavar

I put forward the name Ryvita.

i suggest the name "Bloatvar, Sprocket King of Snowflakes."

i suggest that super aggro crag stops being such a super aggro fag tbh

FUCK I HAVE TO MAKE A WIKI PAGE AND I BET NOBODY HAS PICTURES
AAAAAAAA

Thanks so much for all the feedback! I'm here to address some concerns.

• Regarding Ratvar's name: It's very unlikely I'm changing it. "Ratvar" literally translates to "Engine" in the Ratvarian language (which is rot13) and I don't well want to change it. If you can find a better name that still has meaning in the language, I'll be happy to change it. Otherwise, no can-do.
• Regarding a wiki page: I will be creating a wiki page.
• Regarding Ratvar vs. Nar-Sie: It will eventually be its own gamemode, but not in this PR. In addition, blood cult objects will be more effective against Ratvarian objects, but this will also not be in the initial PR.
• Regarding the "overwhelming" beginning: Learn to read. The introduction message directs you to Recollection, which walks you through all the scripture and all the slab functionality. It's your own fault for not reading the messages, so don't get upset at me when your laziness confuses you.
• Regarding Hierophant's difficulty of access: I agree with you and will be moving it the initial menu.
• Regarding multiple goggle/slab abuse: This will be nerfed before the PR is merged.
• Regarding lack of true combat tools: I will be buffing the Ratvarian spear's base damage. Armor is not a problem, as Fellowship Armory equips extremely potent armor already.
• Regarding the Sigils of Transgression and Submission: These sigils are both intended to be traps. I'm not concerned about them; the Sigil of Transgression immediately gives away the presence of servants unless it's followed up immediately. It also doesn't mute you at all, meaning that they can just shout for help.
• Regarding component tedium: This is mitigated by a large factor if the cult contributes. Tinkerer's caches are now linked, and scripture can draw from the overall component store and will do so before drawing from your slab. It's up to the whole cult to contribute their parts and set up clockwork walls and tinkerer's daemons to passively generate components more quickly.
• Regarding paralysis stuns: As far as I know, this only occurs with Vanguard overload and Justiciar's Gavel, both of which are for balancing.
• Regarding silicon conversion: I'm mostly happy with the spot silicon conversion is in. As they're immune to control via the Robotics control console, I don't want them to have easy disguise outside of headlights. It isn't actually possible to complete two of the cult's objectives without converting the AI, so that should be one of the cult's priorities.
• Regarding invincible structures: Structures will soon be destroyable by hitting them with things while on harm intent.
• Regarding difference from Nar-Sie cult: The two cults are very different. Ratvar's cultists are focused more around stealth, subterfuge, and base-building. Nar-Sie's cultists are focused around sowing chaos and paranoia.
• Regarding Ratvar's sprite: It's being replaced with this.

what is the old one?

Armhulen wrote:what is the old one?

I'm afraid I don't have it on me, but it was essentially that sprite but with the right rings being a stream of red fire. That was a frozen image that flickered with static, distorted, and multiplied at random.

Xhuis wrote:Thanks so much for all the feedback! I'm here to address some concerns.

• Regarding the "overwhelming" beginning: Learn to read. The introduction message directs you to Recollection, which walks you through all the scripture and all the slab functionality. It's your own fault for not reading the messages, so don't get upset at me when your laziness confuses you.

I hope this isn't directed at me because I read your entire design document before I even played the role and (largely because the design document is also outdated with bad information) I was still extremely confused about the role. You just can't expect every new player to read 1,000 words when they step into the role, and those 1,000 words don't even give a complete description of how things work. It takes 2-3 readings before you really grasp how everything behaves.

Like I explained, there are limits to how much "expertise" you can expect for a single game mode when its only going to run in ~10% of rounds and only 10% of crew will get meaningful exposure to the role in those rounds.

Xhuis wrote:

Armhulen wrote:what is the old one?

I'm afraid I don't have it on me, but it was essentially that sprite but with the right rings being a stream of red fire. That was a frozen image that flickered with static, distorted, and multiplied at random.

oh shit waddup that was on the github pr, okay

Oldman Robustin wrote:snip

It's not directed towards you - you were one of the few servants that truly caught on - but at the many people who ahelped rather than read the provided documentation.

The biggest problem with complicated antag roles is that very few people will play it enough to become proficient in it and get that role on a consistent basis.

Its also the reason why Wizards are still oft a joke years on, since your odds of getting a Wizard role are fantastically low (In all the years I've played SS13 I've NEVER gotten a Wizard role via round start antag selection for example) which means few people can play the role enough to be proficient or even to experiment with the role outside of meta selections as the risk of you fucking up with a bad spell loadout and losing your Wizard round for the year are too high.

Wizard is a poor example though considering how most of it comes down to the player being good at the game, the Wizard spells just give you a nice big fat combat bonus.

But modes such as this Ratvar one where the player is thrown into a compleatly foreign and alien role with a LOT of responsibility can not only be intimidating but hard to grasp.

Not to mention the average SS13 player is pants on head retarded at the best of times.

Who cares if the average player is dumb?? Get good.

Back in the oldcult days, your average cult player had no idea how to research words or even craft talismans, which led to cult's horrible winrate and sec easily roflstomping an theoretically strong antag. Clockcult is much, much more complicated than oldcult ever was - and weaker too. From my limited experience with the game mode, clockcult has all the weaknesses of cult (has to maintain a base, conversion relies on kidnapping) but lacks it's key strengths (no reliable stun, no summon cultist). Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't believe clockcult will have a significant winrate any time soon.

Xhuis wrote:Regarding difference from Nar-Sie cult:[/b] The two cults are very different. Ratvar's cultists are focused more around stealth, subterfuge, and base-building. Nar-Sie's cultists are focused around sowing chaos and paranoia.

Both cults have:

-conversion
-magical stun runes and other
-constructs
-ultimate goal to summon the Big Guy.

Revs and Gangs seem to be much more different than these, at least from my limited experience.

Xhuis wrote: Regarding Ratvar's sprite: It's being replaced with this.

I'unno. Given the design doc:

The Clockwork Justiciar, a hideous amalgamation of metal parts ... Ratvar was banished to a labyrinthine prison deep within the void known as the Celestial Derelict, or Reebe. And he has rusted there for thousands of years.

... something about it just seems a little.. clean to me. Too neat and tidy and shiny for what it is, if you catch my drift - it's got a bit of a elder scrolls dwemer look about it, but doesn't really convey the "fucked up from being left alone untended for thousands of years" bit.

So how many flavors of cult are we gonna get? I want a cult of Iqthuul the Moist, so cultists can turn into half-carp Deep Ones.

>Clown performs show in the theatre, summons the king in yellow

Wyzack wrote:>Clown performs show in the theatre, summons the king in yellow

FUND IT! MAKE IT AN EVENT! RESPRITE SINGULOTH/NAR'SIE/RATVAR AND DO IT.

And speaking of Clockcult, again, Nar'sie cultists could use some anti-Ratvar stuff, since so far they get the advantage.

Honestly i kinda like how tg station is getting its own pantheon of elder gods. Call of Cthulu in spess when

ah fuck when we talk about the gods in a couple months it won't even be the admins it'll be the 15 summonable cult god conversion gamemode

A problem a lot of our gamemodes have is that they're too easy. Nobody has to work to figure anything out, so there's no challenge and no desire to keep wanting to try to learn them because if you've done it once you've done it all. If we obscure information more it would really benefit the game I feel.

I like the idea of randomizing the combos to build something...

I stunned a floor tile with my meme glasses when I meant to stun a sec officer after I finally managed to make a move after 20 minutes of needing the mats for a tinkerers cache, then got away but still failed despite having all access because the hop was cult.
10/10

nar'sie v ratvar battle was WAY LAMER than i hoped it would be
1. shouldn't be stacked in either god's favor by default (currently ratvar has a straight 10% chance to just win in one hit)
2. gods should have identical health and damage pools, but damage should scale based on how many followers they have
3. in nar'sie's case since he gibs his followers, harvesters should increase his damage, but at a much much much smaller rate than full cultists

just saw a battle between the two and after 40 gorillion years of waiting ratvar just tapped narsie on the shoulder and it ended without as much as a loud noise to show for it, was very dissapointed

PKPenguin321 wrote:sad

This was due to a bug where harvesters could become servants of Ratvar. It will be fixed in the final version.

Ratvar should fully augment his followers and people that are turned with clockwork parts.

>They think Ratvar is a bad name

http://rot13.com

Type Ratvar in you shits