/tg/Station 13

PUT DOWN YOUR PITCHFORKS I HAVE DECENT REASONING FOR THIS.

PR LINK: https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/15630

Death is literally nothing more than a small inconvenience in a spaceman's life on-station.

Ways to get back into the round post-death:

• Botany Pod Cloning
• Robotics (brain cubes and being borged via brain surgey)
• Defib (unless you were hidden or somewhere not well-traveled you'll probably get this)
• Chemistry shenanigans (theres a chemical that isn't too hard to make that can literally revive people as ugly zombies)
• pAI
• Drones
• Xenobio (golems, sentience potions, ect)
• Revenant ghost
• Abductor
• Holoparasites
• Syndicate borgs/reinforcement ops
• Wizard apprentices

Not even accounting all the admin events/away mission spawns/general fuckery that can happen within a single round. Death means at worst, you'll be out of a round for another 40-50 minutes at most and will be forced to actually be a productive citizen of society (oh god).

I'm making this change solely because I'm interested to see how people will change their thought process when it comes to throwing themselves at the antag if the most readily-available way back into the round isn't always guaranteed to be there. It also doesn't make any sense if apparently even central command doesn't have one (this was the exact reasoning I was given when I asked why assassination objectives counted with the corpse on the shuttle when it docked), but the station does right at round-start.

This will remove the roundstart cloning room altogether, turning the space it used to occupy into a sort of mini-lobby outside of Genetics. The research requirements for each cloning board has been bumped up by 1 (each were originally programming 3 and bio 3, now both 4).

Map Change:


Map change is currently not commited because I get the feeling this isn't going anywhere for awhile and I'd rather not deal with map conflicts.

R E M O V E D E F I B S
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CLONING DID NOTHING WRONG

points for removing cloning:
1. "Death is literally nothing more than a small inconvenience in a spaceman's life on-station."
2. "RnD can make it pop out a fresh, defect clone in a minute with 10-15 minutes of research"
3. "can speedclone for cloning multiple people"
4. "DEFIB BECOMES 100% USELESS AFTER KICKING THE PERSON TO 181 BRUTE."

counterpoints:
1. This wasn't true until we had defibs. If you died, you had to fucking WAIT YOUR TURN at genetics and pray the geneticist knew his shit. Death was a fucking chore that you wanted to avoid at all costs. Defibs are the problem, not cloning.
2. Medbay gets 3 defibs roundstart, no R&D required. They make perfect "clones" minus maybe a little bit of bloodloss and a few seconds getting a patch applied/being put in a sleeper.
3. Speedcloning takes a dedicated doctor/geneticist and a chemist that can actually make cryoxadone. Not to mention, it's FUN. Defibs, on the other hand, don't even need effort to "speedclone," as you can defib like 10 people in the span of one minute with zero effort aside from stabilizing the revived corpses. Once again, defibs are more problematic than cloning.
3b. Cryo sucks so much ass that speedcloning isn't nearly as fast as it used to be.
4. Cloning becomes 100% useless the second a corpse is gibbed, unless you have an autocloner, which, you know, you could remove instead. Not to mention, if kicking somebody to 181 is so easy, how come 9/10 deaths are resolved with a defib? Nobody does it, and saying they do is just lying to yourself. This change won't make them start, either.

Remove defibs, cloning din'du nuffin

Remove defibs. Make cloning run on a flesh soup derived from the dead.

Make defibs bring back from crit instead.

We don't even need to remove defibs. The hard counter to someone being defibbed is just hitting them a few more times - it's not hard.

Gating defibs behind R&D would be a solid compromise.

As a notice, I'm posting most of my rebuttals and reasoning in the PR. I made this thread mostly to make sure people can't just say "well you didn't even try to show people the changes."

Post here too faggot

ShadowDimentio wrote:Post here too faggot

It'd be just a bunch of quoting of shit I've already said and it'd probably be easier just to skim through my replies to see what I was even responding to for context but if you're that lazy not to look at the PR link theeeen.

Get better at hiding bodies or just kick someone who's already dead until they're past 180 you whiny fucks, removing cloning/defibs won't do anything to prevent random greyshits from rushing antags because random greyshits don't value their lives at all and will just suicide with an oxygen tank if they go long enough without validing something anyway

Not to mention, if kicking somebody to 181 is so easy, how come 9/10 deaths are resolved with a defib?

I love random numbers pulled out of people's asses, you clearly have never played medbay if you think that's remotely true

Nobody does it, and saying they do is just lying to yourself. This change won't make them start, either.

Well that's tough shit for them then, huh? If you're too lazy to take an extra 2 seconds to drop another 60 brute revolver round into someone or 2-3 more esword swipes or whatever after putting someone to crit, or hide their body in maint, don't cry when your victim gets back on their feet

Don't shit on medbay and make things 100x more tedious because of some vague "muh lethality" boogeyman, because someone who is set on trying to find antags to kill isn't going to stop just because death is more inconvenient, because the whole reason they're playing is to fight antags in the first place, and everyone else is already fighting their hardest to survive as is

You might as well throw genetics into research altogether, since it no longer has the "Health" counterpart of the job (do note that this would also nerf geneticists as a job, since right now they have a bit of sci access and a bit of medbay access.)

EDIT: Darn people posting replies and forcing me to read them, it has happend 3 times already. First people want to remove AI (again), then cloning... My list of favorite jobs is shrinking quickly.

Shaps wrote: Don't shit on medbay and make things 100x more tedious because of some vague "muh lethality" boogeyman, because someone who is set on trying to find antags to kill isn't going to stop just because death is more inconvenient, because the whole reason they're playing is to fight antags in the first place, and everyone else is already fighting their hardest to survive as is

I guess those who play only to beat up bad guys are probably gonna have a hard time after this PR, then.

Anyone else smart enough NOT to blindly zergrush the op/wizard/blob will probably have minimal actual effect from this PR since they aren't throwing themselves in harms way for free valids.

Jazaen wrote:You might as well throw genetics into research altogether, since it no longer has the "Health" counterpart of the job (do note that this would also nerf geneticists as a job, since right now they have a bit of sci access and a bit of medbay access.)

EDIT: Darn people posting replies and forcing me to read them, it has happend 3 times already. First people want to remove AI (again), then cloning... My list of favorite jobs is shrinking quickly.

Eh, genetics still has a decent connection between both Medbay and Research, even after this change.

MMMiracles wrote:

Shaps wrote: Don't shit on medbay and make things 100x more tedious because of some vague "muh lethality" boogeyman, because someone who is set on trying to find antags to kill isn't going to stop just because death is more inconvenient, because the whole reason they're playing is to fight antags in the first place, and everyone else is already fighting their hardest to survive as is

I guess those who play only to beat up bad guys are probably gonna have a hard time after this PR, then.

Anyone else smart enough NOT to blindly zergrush the op/wizard/blob will probably have minimal actual effect from this PR since they aren't throwing themselves in harms way for free valids.

I don't know what effect you think this'll have on people "rushing" ops/wizards/blobs when that's literally the entire point of those gamemodes/the round likely won't be enough for them to get cloned anyway

There's a difference between planning out some actual form of ambush/attack and "THE TIIIIIDE" blindly charging headfirst into danger with their spear and toolbox.

Good luck on defeating that newcult/ops without the zerg rush though.

Jazaen wrote:Good luck on defeating that newcult/ops without the zerg rush though.

1. remove newcult it sucks anyway

2. if the nuke ops take long enough to allow a significant number of people be cloned to re-enter the fight they've probably fucked up by then.

>Implying you're going to get cloned on an OPs round anyway
>Implying there's anything left to defib/clone after newcult sacrificing you to the Blood God and Skull Throne
Besides, OPs only need to unload enough bullets in you to knock you into crit, it's a waste of ammo for them to make you undefib-able on purpose.

Also nerf defibs to 2 or 2 and a half minutes after death imo

MMMiracles wrote:There's a difference between planning out some actual form of ambush/attack and "THE TIIIIIDE" blindly charging headfirst into danger with their spear and toolbox.

Literally when have people ever skillfully ambushed ops (AKA the people who have the element of surprise in the first place and are always on the move), a blob (it's a blob???) or a wizard (element of surprise + jaunting means 99% of the time he's the one laying ambushes)

Implying that the game will suddenly become super deep and tactical and people will form up massive plans instead of just continuing doing what's most effective (chucking spears at ops because that's one of the only weapons a greyshirt can make) just because death is more inconvenient is silly. Not to mention this would pretty much invalidate the point of controlling Medbay during gang/rev and end up buffing science even more since they would control every single way for people to get back into the round on the station short of botany cloning

The defib is rarely if every useful for dealing with murders because of tissue damage. It's only good for when people die from crit suffocation/toxins/regular suffocation.

People throw themselves at antags because they are bored and want to do something fun or engaging, not because "i'll get cloned anyways". People who die and are revived seldom get to throw themselves at the antag again.

The thing about ops is that if you do manage to defeat them, and for some reason someone recalls the shuttle all people that died in zerg rush (and most likely anyone that ever got close to ops) will be left dead, just because some dingus thought that recalling was a good idea. (EDIT: Especially after HoP relases all-access IDs)

Speaking of newcult, maybe focusing on real tumors first instead of controversial department ideas is a better way to improve the experience.

TechnoAlchemist wrote:The defib is rarely if every useful for dealing with murders because of tissue damage. It's only good for when people die from crit suffocation/toxins/regular suffocation.

People throw themselves at antags because they are bored and want to do something fun or engaging, not because "i'll get cloned anyways". People who die and are revived seldom get to throw themselves at the antag again.

Also this, if you're trying to kill someone, you don't beat them until they're just barely in crit and then leave them laying in the middle of the halls to bleed out, you keep beating their head in until they die. Since people die at 200 damage, and 180 damage is the limit for people becoming undefibbable, most people who actually get beat to death are already undefibbable or would only need 2-3 more hits to cross the threshold as is. Again, where you got "9/10 dead people get defibbed" from is beyond me pkp

Remove defibs or cloning, I don't care which.

Me from the PR wrote:I'd support:

Removal of speedcloning.
A slowing down of current cloning.
Removal of defibs.

Personally this PR currently goes too far.

crossposting because discussion or something.

Yeah this is a terrible idea as a whole.

Shaps wrote:

TechnoAlchemist wrote:The defib is rarely if every useful for dealing with murders because of tissue damage. It's only good for when people die from crit suffocation/toxins/regular suffocation.

People throw themselves at antags because they are bored and want to do something fun or engaging, not because "i'll get cloned anyways". People who die and are revived seldom get to throw themselves at the antag again.

Also this, if you're trying to kill someone, you don't beat them until they're just barely in crit and then leave them laying in the middle of the halls to bleed out, you keep beating their head in until they die. Since people die at 200 damage, and 180 damage is the limit for people becoming undefibbable, most people who actually get beat to death are already undefibbable or would only need 2-3 more hits to cross the threshold as is. Again, where you got "9/10 dead people get defibbed" from is beyond me pkp

exaggeration ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
but you have to admit that a lot of deaths are resolved by defibs, even if it's not 9/10.

i don't know, maybe i'm biased because geneticist was the first job i was really interested in when i started playing, but i just think that cloners have a lot more value over defibs.

speedcloning back in the day before defibs was difficult but rewarding. medbay had to run like a machine, with doctors moving people out of genetics and managing cryo tubes (which weren't automatic release like they are now, iirc) while also managing any other people that came in injured, chemists had to make alkysine (give trekchem)/clonexadone (pls give trekchem)/cryoxadone at a high rate and keep the tubes full, geneticists had to ensure the cloner was always running and keep track of who still needs to be cloned/who was already cloned...

it was fun and an actually engaging experience to work in the medbay. nowadays the cloner is used so infrequently that there's rarely a line, and when there is, half the corpses in the line just disconnect/become a new antag from ghost roles.

defibs were novelty at first when they only revived people that died 2 or 3 minutes beforehand (i forget the exact number). people considered them to be practically useless, but this wasn't true: i distinctly recall, as a traitor, escaping from the brig and killing the detective on the way, only to find out due to cries of joy over the radio that the detective had been saved by a diligent doctor who rushed down as fast as he could with a defib. unfortunately, defibs got buffed, and now they live next to the cryo tubes so that every other corpse can get zapped-brutepatched and be good to go. it's not engaging, it's not enticing, it doesn't make death any more threatening, and it's not fun.

if you actually read all this, you're cool

the shit ideas thread is on the other board dummy

As others have said, defibs are way more shit than cloners.
Also being able to upgrade cloners is also shit - autocloners are serious cockblocker9000's.

For that matter, a lot of machines that can be upgraded, that were never designed to be upgraded, are made shit because upgrades make them OP.

was willing to entertain the idea as optional hardmode until I saw that speedcloning was apparently on the list to be taken out

>taking out speedcloning

that's fucking haram as shit, it's a mark of skill and competency, even fun, to run genetics in a time of emergency and plow through corpses waiting to be cloned.

Once again, armchair balance experts who never play medbay overstate how good defibs are and act like it's impossible to counter them. I've never seen anyone have an issue with defibs in game, it's only when people get to talking about abstract concepts like "make the game feel more paranoid!" or "make everything more hardcore!" that people ever think to complain about them. I assure you that they are not the magic hex on fun that you guys are painting them as, they're a tool for doctors to use in certain scenarios to make everyone's lives easier, but are easily countered by hitting a body for 3 seconds longer than normal

For that matter, tier 4 cloning is overpowered? I rarely ever see it get done, and I really doubt an upgraded cloner ever ruined someone's round, "balance" be damned

It's not as skillful as it used to be, it's way too easy to speedclone nowadays. It's a mark of stupidity to not know how to speedclone and I've rarely seen Geneticists step away from their research consoles to clone corpses.

Honestly I'm on the fence, removign cloning in it's entirety might be going to ofar but the default, unupgraded cloner needs a nerf in terms of the healthiness of the clone it produces beyond retardation and cell damage. Give the clone some defects (and a whole bunch of other downsides if you eject at the earliest possible time) and remove the mutadone/mannitol pill bottles from genetics so Geneticists can use the clean SE they have on file for stuff beyond fixing specimens.

Also remove the access requirement for deleting cloning records to counter auto-cloning backup memes.

Defibs aren't the same as they were when you could patch corpses, or when the timer was twice as long or some shit. But it's still an extremely powerful, if situational alternative to cloning.
Before THREE defibs got added to medbay, for all practical purposes there was one cloner that was used to revive everyone, barring the occasional pod person etc.

And if someone wants to keep someone permanently dead, they're not going to just 'hit them for three more seconds', they're going to hide the corpse or space it.
Defibs are not for that - they're for when someone has been murdering people (like a dude with a revolver or ops or whatever), leaving around dead or dying people that are easily defibbed.
Prior to defibs that meant a big queue at the cloner, but now there are 3 defibs to go around.

This is not 'arm chair balance', this is the direct result of me playing round after round as an EMT - defibs do not replace cloners, but they clearly surpass them in plenty of situations.

Also t4 cloner upgrades as far a I'm aware do precisely nothing - t3 enabled autocloning and results in 100% healthy clones, and the research for this can and is done in a matter of minutes almost every round.

I think T4 poops them out faster

Add a "fuck yes" option. I'd love to see alternative, imperfect resurrection systems used, such as clone pods.

I don't want this merged because when I play botany I don't want every round to be "oh you're competent at botany shit out replica pod seeds or we'll all get shitty at you".

I don't want to be chastised for going to play xenobio as the only scientist because otherwise there's not going to be any cloning the entire round.

Nerf defibs, not cloning. Defibs shouldn't work on anyone with fatal wounds, hell I'd argue they shouldn't even work on someone with >100 damage, aka anyone in crit. Would at least force medical to patch up a corpse BEFORE defibbing and trying to stabilize them, and it should be very circumstantial/induce organ damage. Hell just remove defibs.

Cloning, as it stands, is fine. If someone wants to cheese and hyper clone, you can fix that, but having a proper cloning lab with 2-3 tubes is actually pretty impressive to watch work if anyone ever builds it. We could also go to the bay system of biomass for cloning, requiring meat to be inserted prior to cloning and give the synthflesh reaction a purpose aside from making the chef like you.

And @MMMiracles, nice strawman. Except for the first 3 examples you gave in your post, none of them have anything to do with your experience or participation thus far into the round, and acting upon said information can get you slapped with metagaming and banned. Aside from many of them just being rare, they are equally available for people who observed and had no part in the round prior to being spawned in as a special role.

pAI - Bound to your creator, can be deleted on a whim and are basically just a way for validhunters to power game since you can't stop a pAI from radio announcing when their master gets stunned or killed in a dark tunnel.

Drones - Not allowed to interact with the crew and stuck doing maintenance work or building a dronefort of autism.

Xenobio (golems, sentience potions, ect) - Non-human, no memories of your previous life and usually an uphill struggle to just get a basic ID for Golems in addition to being bound to follow their creators will and half baked schemes (I've been used as a suicide bomber by Science more than once). Sentience potion slimes and gold extract monsters are liable to be killed by security and general crew just because they can, under the argument that anything from Xeno is a potential threat and dangerous.

Revenant ghost - Rare enough as is, usually spawned at the start of a round and the most noteable thing you can do is pulse robots to make them behave as if emagged.

Abductor - Late round abductors are always an admin event, abductors are so rare to begin with that if you get one mid-round you're so lucky it's a shock you died in the first place.

Holoparasites - No free will, literally tied to your creator and can only interact with the enviroment as a simple mob (dragging and using your stand special ability)

Syndicate borgs/reinforcement ops - Syndi borgs are almost exclusively nuke ops and people don't use them nearly as much as they used. They are almost always bought within the first 10 minutes of a round so if you died to the ops you're not getting to be a syndiborg. Strike Teams are about as Rare as ERT, I.E. they almost never happen unless the admin is bored. I've never once seen a strike team in 4 years of playing game.

Wizard apprentices - Again, round start thing. If you died to a wizard, odds are pretty good you aren't going to get to be an apprentice contract unless nobody observed at round start.

You can't patch corpses anymore, patches being used on corpses was specififcally removed.

Davidchan wrote:

Spoiler:

Nerf defibs, not cloning. Defibs shouldn't work on anyone with fatal wounds, hell I'd argue they shouldn't even work on someone with >100 damage, aka anyone in crit. Would at least force medical to patch up a corpse BEFORE defibbing and trying to stabilize them, and it should be very circumstantial/induce organ damage. Hell just remove defibs.

Cloning, as it stands, is fine. If someone wants to cheese and hyper clone, you can fix that, but having a proper cloning lab with 2-3 tubes is actually pretty impressive to watch work if anyone ever builds it. We could also go to the bay system of biomass for cloning, requiring meat to be inserted prior to cloning and give the synthflesh reaction a purpose aside from making the chef like you.

And @MMMiracles, nice strawman. Except for the first 3 examples you gave in your post, none of them have anything to do with your experience or participation thus far into the round, and acting upon said information can get you slapped with metagaming and banned. Aside from many of them just being rare, they are equally available for people who observed and had no part in the round prior to being spawned in as a special role.

pAI - Bound to your creator, can be deleted on a whim and are basically just a way for validhunters to power game since you can't stop a pAI from radio announcing when their master gets stunned or killed in a dark tunnel.

Drones - Not allowed to interact with the crew and stuck doing maintenance work or building a dronefort of autism.

Xenobio (golems, sentience potions, ect) - Non-human, no memories of your previous life and usually an uphill struggle to just get a basic ID for Golems in addition to being bound to follow their creators will and half baked schemes (I've been used as a suicide bomber by Science more than once). Sentience potion slimes and gold extract monsters are liable to be killed by security and general crew just because they can, under the argument that anything from Xeno is a potential threat and dangerous.

Revenant ghost - Rare enough as is, usually spawned at the start of a round and the most noteable thing you can do is pulse robots to make them behave as if emagged.

Abductor - Late round abductors are always an admin event, abductors are so rare to begin with that if you get one mid-round you're so lucky it's a shock you died in the first place.

Holoparasites - No free will, literally tied to your creator and can only interact with the enviroment as a simple mob (dragging and using your stand special ability)

Syndicate borgs/reinforcement ops - Syndi borgs are almost exclusively nuke ops and people don't use them nearly as much as they used. They are almost always bought within the first 10 minutes of a round so if you died to the ops you're not getting to be a syndiborg. Strike Teams are about as Rare as ERT, I.E. they almost never happen unless the admin is bored. I've never once seen a strike team in 4 years of playing game.

Wizard apprentices - Again, round start thing. If you died to a wizard, odds are pretty good you aren't going to get to be an apprentice contract unless nobody observed at round start.

>strawman

I don't think that means what you think it means.

All the roles I listed ARE valid ways back into a round post-death. I never said it entailed the ability to remember things from your past life. Those roles exist as ways to both spice up a round in some form and give the dead a way to enter the round to continue actually playing the game without breaking any rules. Just because you aren't allowed to use meta info (just like you aren't when as a ghost when you get cloned!) doesn't instantly invalidate those roles.

I still don't understand all the negative backlash. I'd totally understand if it was 2-3 years ago when there was almost no real way back into a round without cloning that wasn't some serious RNG luck or admin intervention. Now, with literally several ways back in, some even given ANTAG status, I see no issue with trying to make death a liiiitttlle more concerning to the average spaceman.

>defibs shouldn't work on people with fatal wounds

Why not just remove them at that point

Strongly suggest you read all the comments here MMMiracles https://www.reddit.com/r/SS13/comments/ ... e_removed/

They make a lot of good points

Zilean my dude please do even a basic level of reaearch before you go off spouting total bullshit abut real life. In real life if your heart is stopped entirely you are more or less dead. A defibrillator can bring you out of atrial fibrillation, where your heart is kinda flip flopping but not pumping. Not to mention this is a game, and realism is more or less irrelevant

Oh fucking rip I was going over my reply and forgot to delete that part because it was retarded

I fully support this, death needs to be meaningful and feared.

How did you even decide this was a good idea?

1. We have cult in a bit of a tangle right now. With a large majority of the player base asking for it to be reverted back.
2. Sleeping carp removed from gangs because MUH balance. With only a select few players moaning about their scroll.
3. HOG has been left in the dust.
4. Another round type, lings. Got removed. Because the player base, and admins dislike it that much.

Why didn't you choose one of the MANY other things to make balanced changes to. You decided to take a stable and fairly balanced part of the game, and want to fuck that up as well?

Where have you all been playing recently? Because It can't be TG.

Defibs sit on the table next to cyro tubes all round. Every corpse is tested with them. And you know what? Most of them keeping on going to the cloning pods. Because defibs, just arn't that great.
Anybody coming out of the away mission, can't be defibed.
Anybody beat during crit, to death, can't be defibbed.
You received two bursts from the nuke ops m90, can't be defibbed.

I don't understand where all this theory crafting bullshit comes from. Defibs are a small tool, that get used in a select few occurrences.

To, which. Might I add. Defib's give doctors just as much work, as cloning. Once revived, you have to pull them back out of the early death they where put into. And lets just hope it isn't blood loss. Because that person is going to be walking around passing out for the remainder of the round. Even with a IV, blood bag and IRON pumping around their system.

Horrible terrible armchair PR balance changes, with it's only function to fuck over the playerbase more.

The logic that death needs to be meaningful and feared. Doesn't hold up.

Because when people die. They will just press that beautiful Red X in the top right hand corner. Not hinder their own play, so they can carry on dodging anything dangerous.

TheLongbowMan wrote:I fully support this, death needs to be meaningful and feared.

ok here's an idea the second you get sent into crit the server autobans you for 48 hours and you can't appeal. death is never going to be "meaningful", so frig orf.

I'm curious to see how this plays out. It's not like we can't undo it if it doesn't work.

Super Aggro Crag wrote:ok here's an idea the second you get sent into crit the server autobans you for 48 hours and you can't appeal. death is never going to be "meaningful", so frig orf.

mmkay

I really like the synthflesh/biomass ideas a few posts up. Add a resource requirement for cloning.

Atlanta-Ned wrote:I'm curious to see how this plays out. It's not like we can't undo it if it doesn't work.

yeah just like newcult, goofchem, carnesprites, and countless other bad decisions we are no longer saddled with the burden of :^^^^^^^))))))))))))))))))))))))))))