/tg/Station 13

So the bulldog slugs did 60 damage a shot, and you got 8 of them per magazine. This was generally regarded as too strong by the person who added them. The shotgun was single shot. The shotgun was recently changed to taser slugs.

Now the m90 has 30 rounds, a 3 round burst, and 35 damage a bullet.

It seems odd to have nerfed the bulldog for doing 60 damage a shot but now there is a weapon that instantly crits a person every burst with 105 damage.

inb4 "i ded" these are my observations from observing ops.

I think the guns are almost equal price as well.

you want nerf or price change.

both can be done quickly and efficiently
I was planning to change some of that. not because I ded but god damn 105 is insane when bulletproofs don't even the arms and regs.

Well I was HoS just now and I got my pda blown up followed by being taken out by a single burst worth of M90-GL bullets.

Just make it 30 and call it good

Zilenan91 wrote:Just make it 30 and call it good

acceptable

Should probably lower the damage, otherwise it just fills the same role as the L6 with none of the downside.

30 damage that is

This weapons has been around for a long time, I'm honestly shocked now someone wants it nerfed.

You have a clear choice between weapons here. The C20r takes five bullets to crit but one or two bullets will stun a target forever, while the M90 takes three bullets to crit but its bullets do not stun.

If you desperately need to wave your nerf boner around then just remove the burst fire ability of the gun.

Jesus, people complain about antags being boring and weak yet they all turn around and are ready to nerf antagonists.

It was because of the nerf to bulldogs that this came to people's attention. Before, why would you ever use anything but bulldogs. Since they aren't standard anymore different things are being used.

Yes and how long until we nerf the next Op weapon when people use that over the M90 (which is the most expensive long arm sans the LMG)?

At some point you have to draw the line in the sand. I personally think that so long as you have to actually expend a limited resource in buying the M90 that then its fine.

So, out of slight boredom, decided to compare the SAW and M90.
The Saw
Heavy Weapon
Burst of 3 Shots per Click
Holds 50 Shots per Magazine (16 Full Bursts)
Costs 18 TC (Each Magazine costs 6 TC)
45 Damage and ignores 5 Armor per Shot
Total Damage per Click/Burst: 135 Brute.
Also can not fit in backpacks.

M90
Can shoot grenades.
Burst of 3 Shots per Click
Holds 30 Shots (10 Full Bursts)
Costs 12 TC (Each Magazine costs 4 TC, 4 Grenades cost 4 TC)
35 Damage per Shot
Total Damage per Click/Burst: 105 Brute.
Grenade does 60 damage and a small explosion.
Can also be bought in a bundle for 15 TC including a magazine and 4 Grenades, plus Syndie Smokes.

Main disadvantage of the M90 over the Saw is that most armor will prevent a 1 Burst Crit, while the Saw will One Burst-Crit ANYONE cept the captain or someone wearing bulletproof stuff. Maybe someone who stole some syndi gear as well?
While the Saw can't be used accurately with a shield due to the heavy weapon (Even a chance to be disarmed if the other hand isn't empty when you shoot!).
Both have the chance of being blocked by a shield admitedly which helps reduce some of the One-Burst Crit stuff, but shields arn't that common.

On a side note, Saws with armor piercing bullets will probobly One Burst Crit ANYONE, and would be pretty hard to block since armor piercing makes it harder to block too I think.

Yea between this and WAROPS, its not very fun going up against Nukeops anymore.

IMO the WAR bonus should be reduced a little. Cut their TC by a moderate amount but give them a couple reinforcements to compensate. I'd rather have a tough fight against several ops rather than a handful of immortal elite hardsuit+shield+healgun demigods with M90's.

They remind me too much of the "nodrop" implant nukeops. And liches. There are just too many enemies where maxcap bombs are the only reliable answer.

@Bored

Last I checked the SAW didn't burst, it was just one bullet per click.

@Steelpoint

If WAR operatives weren't a thing I might agree. Unfortunately 12 TC is trivial when the average op team is playing with 400+ TC.

SAW can shoot in 3 round bursts

Also you're literally the only person who goes out of their way to make maxcaps to try and ggnore antags, in the months since you've been gone people have been getting along fine without doing that every round

Basically: Not every antagonist must have a reliable counter. Most, in fact, SHOULDN'T have a reliable counter. You should never be able to thing "well I've got x y z, so I feel safe in confronting this antagonist." Confronting an antagonist directly should ALWAYS be a hazardous event with no guarantee of success.

Fuck I keep forgetting about ""WAR"".

In that case I agree with a nerf, that or a system to increase weapon costs during a WAR scenario to compensate for Ops buying less Op weapons and more support items.

12tc is trivial anyway because when they lost starting bulldogs they got 10 extra tc each to buy a gun.

I understand not liking nerfs, but a spammable one hit kill weapon as the default/free choice is probably not the best place for the line in the sand.

A ranged weapon doing this much damage is pretty dumb.

Bump it down to 30 brute, call it good. Grenades do 60 brute too so you may want to give them a look.

I'm not asking for a reliable counter, I'm asking for ANY counter that doesn't involve ultrahot plasma mixing with chilled o2.

I'll give it more time, but I feel like I'm forced to resort to the absolute cheesiest shit (lube, TTV's) if I ever want a chance to drop some elite hardsuit shitter behind a shield with another elite hardsuit shitter constantly pumping heals into him from a safe distance.

Think about shit other than bombs man. Explosive lance and spear throwing work wonders. Lances in particular loaded with now-buffed IEDs KO people roughly 50% of the time no matter what armor they're wearing.

I think what Oldman is saying is that it's rediculous that you have to resort to using the highest level of cheese tactics and shifty makeshift weapons to even have a chance of stopping a Op, since the Ops near 100% counter all real station weapons.

What's the point in Lasers and Rifles when these Ops are utterly immune to them?

Steelpoint wrote:I think what Oldman is saying is that it's rediculous that you have to resort to using the highest level of cheese tactics and shifty makeshift weapons to even have a chance of stopping a Op, since the Ops near 100% counter all real station weapons.

What's the point in Lasers and Rifles when these Ops are utterly immune to them?

there are 5 ops.
there can be more than 70 people on station.
And "shifty makeshift weapons" lethal shotty from armory or detectives revolver is able to kill an op, even batons could get one down.

If you make the m90 not 1 burst crit it's hugely shitter as a consequence, since you effectively have to use 6 shots to down someone. If you use single fire instead, then that's an even larger nerf then reducing the damage for what should be obvious reasons.
If you're strafing (shit like 1 maint corridors aside)it should be impossible to actualy eat an entire burst unless you're already crippled. 1 burst crit is far, far worse then a genuine 1 hit crit like bioterror bulldog was.

Also literally no one has complained about the m-90 till now, so IF it is an actual problem, then that's due to tc changes, not the gun itself.
The bulldog was only considered OP because it was FREE, while all the other gun were expensive, so there was zero reason to buy any other guns ever.

2 shot (or in this case 3 shot) crit is not in of itself an issue.

Set it to 2-round burst (instead of 3), but keep it at 3-shot crit. This means it's two clicks to crit (unless you miss a burst), but the rounds themselves still hit like a truck.

Or just increase the cost, as the guns have been in the game for fucking ages with no problem, and this thread has only appeared after the tc/price rework. Hmm, I wonder which is the issue?

REMOVE MORE OF THE GUNS

The unloved rock wrote:

Steelpoint wrote:I think what Oldman is saying is that it's rediculous that you have to resort to using the highest level of cheese tactics and shifty makeshift weapons to even have a chance of stopping a Op, since the Ops near 100% counter all real station weapons.

What's the point in Lasers and Rifles when these Ops are utterly immune to them?

there are 5 ops.
there can be more than 70 people on station.
And "shifty makeshift weapons" lethal shotty from armory or detectives revolver is able to kill an op, even batons could get one down.

I was a war-op the other day, like I said I'm trying to reserve judgment until I see more of it but we played against 50+ crew and it was a steamroll, I don't think we lost a single member. We all had elite hardsuits and the healgun trivialized any damage the station could throw at us. Plus there were only a handful of crew with ballistic weapons, most people were running stun revolvers (science pumped out a ton) or lasers but I had an eshield and so it was an absolutely trivial effort mowing them down. Only the detective's gun would be capable of bypassing our shield AND putting us at risk, the combat shotgun/autorifle just tickles the elite armor when you've got a heal constantly beefing you up (fun fact: put healgun in suit storage and you'll keep healing even when its not in your hands).

Again I might get proven wrong yet, some meta may evolve that lets the crew stand up to the Waroperatives, but I haven't seen it yet.

Good luck using the Combat Shotgun on a elite operative, I'm better off pissing into the space wind and hoping it hits the Ops on the way back.

Autorifle's may work but they don't deal enough damage and are unreliable to have access to since they are a cargo only item. Or if it does hit (past the Eshield 50% deflection and elite armour) the TF2 Medic can heal the pitiful amount of damage in no time.

Lasers do fuck all except deflect back on me and put me into half health.

I can run them down with a Stun Baton but that only gets you so far when someone shoves a Bulldog down my throat when I notice the five+ Ops behind the point man.

Whats an elite op's bullet resist?
Does buckshot not work against them?

Its the fact I have to get in close range against a guy with 60 bullet defence, usually a energy shield which has a 50% deflect rate with ballistics, and with a team to support them whom also all carry the same powerful equipment.

Edit: Values: melee = 60, bullet = 60, laser = 50, energy = 25, bomb = 55, bio = 100, rad = 70

>absurdly high armour values that render your attacks useless aren't any fun to fight against

Glad we finally agree then.

The armor on everything else is probably fine if we make bullet weapons more easily accessed. Like making makeshift shotguns not super painful to create.

Have you tried not fighting the operatives in 1v5 combat? Think strategically. Set up barricades, bolt key doors, use slug shotguns (even against elite hardsuits, they do 36 damage each, which is a three-shot crit), prepare grenades (even flashbangs work to stun an Operative if you throw it under them), flamethrowers, r-wall defenses, even just hide around a corner and ambush them with a stunbaton. The Operatives are vastly outnumbered, and they're supposed to be able to take on lots of people at once; if three Operatives are fighting three Security members, the Operatives are going to win. Even past that, they have to get the disk, go back to their nuke, then set it - and all you have to do is protect the disk until the shuttle arrives. Hide in the Captain's office and smash the display case to toggle the bolts; then take disposals to Cargo and run to Arrivals; then jetpack around the station to Escape and early-launch the shuttle.

If you're trying to beat them in combat when the odds aren't overwhelmingly in your favour, you might be doing it wrong.

Kor wrote:>absurdly high armour values that render your attacks useless aren't any fun to fight against

Glad we finally agree then.

Super fucking duper different when you talk about Operatives where adrenals, stims, and even freedom implants are the norm along with the medgun, overshield, eshield, etc....

Versus a captain/HoS who are very frequently isolated. Even then I wouldn't advocate giving their armor the values of elite hardsuits, just enough that the captain isn't as easy to shoot to death as Johnny Greyshirt.

@Nightingale

I've never fought the WarOps while outnumbered, its just that conventional weapons don't do anything against a cohesive operative group. Being able to shove my Healgun into Suit Storage and have it continue healing while I use an eshield + bulldog + elitesuit to gun down anyone causing trouble is just ezmode combat.

The suit storage thing is probably a bug. Also, remember you can't use two healguns on a team (or if you do, you have to be really careful); crossing the streams makes an explosion, and it's not pretty. If whoever has the disk is isolated in a known WarOps round, they're doing it really, really wrong.

Kor wrote:>absurdly high armour values that render your attacks useless aren't any fun to fight against

Glad we finally agree then.

Are you insane? There's a massive difference between a Nuke Op (let alone a WarOp) versus a Security Officer or the Head of Security.

At least Nuke Ops have to conserve their TC's to a extent, but with WarOp's its elite all the way baby.

So do any of the many issues raised in this thread actually have to do with the damage of the m-90? Because it doesn't sound like it.

Well, the M90 being able to crit in one click is pretty dangerous. Not even meteor pens can do that. Either make it a two-shot burst, or drop the damage to 30 per shot (so 90 damage overall).

answer remove energy shield, nerf m90gl
Add in Z6Mgl grenade launcher

3 bullets from 1 click is not the same as 1 hit kill.
Unless your movement is already utterly crippled, or you physically cannot dodge, it's very easy to dodge atleast part of a burst, if you know someone is trying to shoot you.

Also again, the fact that this has never been an issue for like, a year or however long this has been in the game, until war got added and gun prices got slashed makes me wonder how anyone sees this as a fault with the gun's stats.

Last time someone shot at me all the hits landed at once.

Malkevin wrote:Last time someone shot at me all the hits landed at once.

you must have lagged or something because if you're moving perpendicular to the bullets they very much will not all hit you

faster output.
You're also more likely to miss some shots with burst fire, but your dps will definitely be higher.

Odds are if the first bullets hit, then at least the second one will too unless you're firing at an angle.

Replace the M90 with a MGL that has like a 4-6 shot cylinder for rapid-fire booms. C20 already does a nice job at being a convenient-but-powerful weapon, with shit like the SAW being there for more raw firepower.

PKPenguin321 wrote:

Malkevin wrote:Last time someone shot at me all the hits landed at once.

you must have lagged or something because if you're moving perpendicular to the bullets they very much will not all hit you

No I was chasing a fluke op

Adrenal implants and the farking nuke op sanicing about.

I was sec officer, its my job to chase danger.

Steelpoint wrote:I think what Oldman is saying is that it's rediculous that you have to resort to using the highest level of cheese tactics and shifty makeshift weapons to even have a chance of stopping a Op, since the Ops near 100% counter all real station weapons.

What's the point in Lasers and Rifles when these Ops are utterly immune to them?

If ops declare war there's going to be a whole new playground of weapons that they have to fight
Hint hint NT ARMOR PIERCING SMGS, XRAY LASERS, MECHS

>xray all the ops to death while they're still stuck in the metal coffin

I crack up every time.
Also yeah I personally haven't seen war ops win more than a handful of time, but I haven't been playing so much recently so I assume by people in this thread that ops have figured out war strats that actually work?
Flamethrowers + elite hardsuits proved pretty hilarious.

that's because ops who use pod are asking to get xrayed to death unless everyone in there has eshields

Crew having Xrays by the time warops show up is an extremely rare thing.

You need excellent coordination between miners (who often don't even bother mining when declaration goes out at roundstart), cargo, and RND, and RND/Mining has to be staffed with at least one really good player.