/tg/Station 13

Medbay lacks time sinks, lacks something to do at the start. That could be changed by relying more on surgery and implants. Give CMO a blue space console that can exchange organs extracted from corpses/living people for implants on a point system. For the purpose of R&D they are 50% reliable. This would include anti-drop implants/X-ray surgery. Different organs would offer different amounts of points, appendixes would be worth 10 points, brains would be worth 25, hearts would be worth 50. Alien organs, or organs of abductors would be worth 3 times as much. Organs such as the left/right arms left over from augmentation surgery would be worth 15 points each.
Emagging the console would be like emagging a supply console, and allow the purchase of illegal implants, including explosive implant, freedom implant, and storage implant. New implants could be put here that would be exclusive to medbay, giving the incentive that not everything cool has to go to R&D

I really like the idea of this. I would argue that it could be used to rush RnD but that is already possible via exosuit fabs anyway.

Just don't make organs a simple currency. There must be some serious drawbacks in living without them.

polyp wrote:I really like the idea of this. I would argue that it could be used to rush RnD but that is already possible via exosuit fabs anyway.

At 50% reliable they don't even get accepted with Femto manipulators.
It wouldn't be a problem

Lumbermancer wrote:Just don't make organs a simple currency. There must be some serious drawbacks in living without them.

You can't live without a heart or Brain I thought. The point being at the start, everyone's removing each other's appendixes, or replacing arms with robo arms, and as people start to die/suicide, you use their bodies as cadavers to send their organs to Centcomm
If you want them to be more then a simple currency, their could be another option. They are requesting specific blood types/organ combinations, so you get points by filling out those orders. Brains are the exceptions because they can always use more brains for Cyborgs.

Why not make organs traitor objectives?

"Steal the heart of X"
"Steal the apendix of X"

You could put fluff text with it if you want that its of medical importance or something similar. That that person/their clones have certain medical properties.

Bring on the humanised monkeys.

(Also, how much would lizard tails be worth?)

DemonFiren wrote:Bring on the humanised monkeys.

(Also, how much would lizard tails be worth?)

When input the machine spits out a wooden nickel with a laughing clown on one side and a glaring mime on the other side.

peoplearestrange wrote:Why not make organs traitor objectives?

"Steal the heart of X"
"Steal the apendix of X"

You could put fluff text with it if you want that its of medical importance or something similar. That that person/their clones have certain medical properties.

I like the idea but people bitched so much when changeling debraining was a thing that I don't know how it'll go over. (I'm fine with it. Steal objectives shouldn't be as ridiculously easy as they are now.)

peoplearestrange wrote:Why not make organs traitor objectives?

It's already a changeling objective so why not.

peoplearestrange wrote:Why not make organs traitor objectives?

"Steal the heart of X"
"Steal the apendix of X"

You could put fluff text with it if you want that its of medical importance or something similar. That that person/their clones have certain medical properties.

Because stealing organs as a traitor objective doesn't solve the problem of medical doctors not having anything to do, and people hated debraining objectives because a lot of people don't know or like surgery.

Debrain objectives weren't liked because ensuring you have access to a body for a long time is much harder than almost anything asked of normal antagonists. Murder is easy, theft is easy, debraining is not (and also wiped out a bunch of things like bombs and singularities and spacings from being possible).

I like it if only because I have an excuse to cut people up.
For a suggestion of unique items separate from R&D implants, you could have artificial organs to incentivise people to sell their organs with the artificial organs. Of course, each having an upside and downside depending on what organ they're replacing and "type".
Like, a mechanical heart could be capable of filtering toxins and metabolises reagents quicker, but if it's EMP'd you instantly go into crit as if you were fully augged. Or you could get a genetically modified heart that doubles the effects of reagents, including poisons.
You'd probably have to give people even more organs to get more depth out of the system, currently spessmen only have hearts, appendixes and brains.

I mean, medbay does have that body improvement thing going on with virology and genetics.

a couple rounds ago i abused the cloner to make dozens of copies of the same person. each had a brain, appendix, and heart, as well as limbs.
this system would be way way way waaaayyy too exploitable.

PKPenguin321 wrote:a couple rounds ago i abused the cloner to make dozens of copies of the same person. each had a brain, appendix, and heart, as well as limbs.
this system would be way way way waaaayyy too exploitable.

A couple rounds ago I abused botany to make dozens of plants, each could be harvested.
This system is way way way wayyyyy too exploitable

Helios wrote:

PKPenguin321 wrote:a couple rounds ago i abused the cloner to make dozens of copies of the same person. each had a brain, appendix, and heart, as well as limbs.
this system would be way way way waaaayyy too exploitable.

A couple rounds ago I abused botany to make dozens of plants, each could be harvested.
This system is way way way wayyyyy too exploitable

plants can be like, deathnettle at best. we're talking 10,000 storage/adrenals/explosive implants which are normally very expensive. i mean cmon man if you're gonna strawman at least try harder than that.

Helios wrote:

PKPenguin321 wrote:a couple rounds ago i abused the cloner to make dozens of copies of the same person. each had a brain, appendix, and heart, as well as limbs.
this system would be way way way waaaayyy too exploitable.

A couple rounds ago I abused botany to make dozens of plants, each could be harvested.
This system is way way way wayyyyy too exploitable

A couple of rounds ago I abused R&D to make dozens of guns.
This system isn't way way way wayyyyy too exploitable enough.

please go

A couple of rounds ago I abused genetics to give every assistant Hulk and TK. I did that a bunch of times, actually.
PKPenguin, the big thing on that is before the last update to surgery, it didn't matter the amount of cadavers, surgery would take a decent amount for every organ. And the slight differences in surgery, whether or not you have a saw can throw people off.

PKPenguin321 wrote: plants can be like, deathnettle at best. we're talking 10,000 storage/adrenals/explosive implants which are normally very expensive. i mean cmon man if you're gonna strawman at least try harder than that.

Which would require an emag to unlock.
In that case, did you know the same thing can currently be done in cargo?
If you send back plasma sheets, you get massive amounts of points.
This can be combined with the emag option which sends you syndicate bundles, this can be used for infinite traitor items.
Science can already produce limitless augments, how often do you see people actually go and get welding shields? Or X-ray implants?

Helios wrote:A couple of rounds ago I abused genetics to give every assistant Hulk and TK. I did that a bunch of times, actually.
PKPenguin, the big thing on that is before the last update to surgery, it didn't matter the amount of cadavers, surgery would take a decent amount for every organ. And the slight differences in surgery, whether or not you have a saw can throw people off.

PKPenguin321 wrote: plants can be like, deathnettle at best. we're talking 10,000 storage/adrenals/explosive implants which are normally very expensive. i mean cmon man if you're gonna strawman at least try harder than that.

Which would require an emag to unlock.
In that case, did you know the same thing can currently be done in cargo?
If you send back plasma sheets, you get massive amounts of points.
This can be combined with the emag option which sends you syndicate bundles, this can be used for infinite traitor items.
Science can already produce limitless augments, how often do you see people actually go and get welding shields? Or X-ray implants?

okay then iamgoofball have fun with giving everybody giant fucking suicide bombs every endgame R&D implant roundstart, if it's such a neato idea

also,
>comparing the difficulty of cooperating cargo and botany and chemistry to cutting up a corpse for 30 seconds
bruh

PKPenguin321 wrote:

Helios wrote:A couple of rounds ago I abused genetics to give every assistant Hulk and TK. I did that a bunch of times, actually.
PKPenguin, the big thing on that is before the last update to surgery, it didn't matter the amount of cadavers, surgery would take a decent amount for every organ. And the slight differences in surgery, whether or not you have a saw can throw people off.

PKPenguin321 wrote: plants can be like, deathnettle at best. we're talking 10,000 storage/adrenals/explosive implants which are normally very expensive. i mean cmon man if you're gonna strawman at least try harder than that.

Which would require an emag to unlock.
In that case, did you know the same thing can currently be done in cargo?
If you send back plasma sheets, you get massive amounts of points.
This can be combined with the emag option which sends you syndicate bundles, this can be used for infinite traitor items.
Science can already produce limitless augments, how often do you see people actually go and get welding shields? Or X-ray implants?

okay then iamgoofball have fun with giving everybody giant fucking suicide bombs every endgame R&D implant roundstart, if it's such a neato idea

also,
>comparing the difficulty of cooperating cargo and botany and chemistry to cutting up a corpse for 30 seconds
bruh

It'd be cargo co-operating with cargo. QM can literally do it himself.

still though, 4 minutes shuttle both ways and that requires getting minerals. surgery is like 30 seconds AND the proposed system doesn't even require an emag for all the neat shit.
also,
>how often do you see people actually go and get welding shields? Or X-ray implants?
pretty much every time they're available, which is almost never, because they're not easy to get (and aren't supposed to be easy to get)
reeeeeeeeeee

PKPenguin321 wrote:still though, 4 minutes shuttle both ways and that requires getting minerals. surgery is like 30 seconds AND the proposed system doesn't even require an emag for all the neat shit.
also,
>how often do you see people actually go and get welding shields? Or X-ray implants?
pretty much every time they're available, which is almost never, because they're not easy to get (and aren't supposed to be easy to get)
reeeeeeeeeee

You can get welding implants from 3 syringe guns.
Which used to be standard practice, and I still do.
So, they were producible every single round someone put 3 syringe guns in.
How often did you see roboticists hand them out?
As to "all that neat shit", most departments have neat shit. Engineering has RCDs and space suits, Science has all of R&D, cargo has everything it can order. Medbay has crew monitor, and that's about it.

Helios wrote:This would include anti-drop implants/X-ray surgery.

it's not really the welding implants i'm talking about

The point of this is, it adds more powerful items to the station, at the cost of being time consuming, click intensive, and people seeking to get those benefits making themselves intensely vulnerable. Sure they accidentally get hit by the circular saw once, then the doctor uses it to kill them while they're on the table.
It's like the cost of officers getting upgraded in genetics, you might be getting super powers, or being turned into a monkey.

Helios wrote:The point of this is, it adds more powerful items to the station, at the cost of being time consuming, click intensive, and people seeking to get those benefits making themselves intensely vulnerable. Sure they accidentally get hit by the circular saw once, then the doctor uses it to kill them while they're on the table.
It's like the cost of officers getting upgraded in genetics, you might be getting super powers, or being turned into a monkey.

my point of this being a shit idea is that your click intensive stuff isn't even remotely click intensive unless meaningful implants cost an absurdly high amount of points, at which point they'll be used even more rarely than science. the only organ a human can spare (if you dont count augments, since they hardly put you at a disadvantage) is the appendix anyways. this wont even be used on live people. it'll be mainly used on corpses.
the idea is cool on paper but fundamentally flawed.

You can just ask an assistant to get killed by one of you, then repeatedly clone him over and over, with him ghosting out while he's in the tubes. One dead body and new set of organs every time you do it at a ridiculously fast pace.

PKPenguin321 wrote:

Helios wrote:The point of this is, it adds more powerful items to the station, at the cost of being time consuming, click intensive, and people seeking to get those benefits making themselves intensely vulnerable. Sure they accidentally get hit by the circular saw once, then the doctor uses it to kill them while they're on the table.
It's like the cost of officers getting upgraded in genetics, you might be getting super powers, or being turned into a monkey.

my point of this being a shit idea is that your click intensive stuff isn't even remotely click intensive unless meaningful implants cost an absurdly high amount of points, at which point they'll be used even more rarely than science. the only organ a human can spare (if you dont count augments, since they hardly put you at a disadvantage) is the appendix anyways. this wont even be used on live people. it'll be mainly used on corpses.
the idea is cool on paper but fundamentally flawed.

You're also forgetting that the OP suggested the implants be unreliable. I don't know what unreliable implants do but it really wouldn't be hard to make the implants have a 50% chance of failing when used (not implanted, used).

There's never enough time for roboticists and scientists to give out all the neat toys and implants they research. Even if the round goes on for 90 minutes.
Letting medbay do the implanting and augmenting always felt like a straight forward, obvious thing - but they never gain access to these items.
Having a dispenser fueled by limbs and organs in surgery is a great idea. Who cares if you have to gut five monkeymen to get an implant. It's not like MD's are super busy people.
Obviously, the availability of implants should be tied to science's research. Otherwise you could do weird shortcuts by using hi-tech implants to fuel research instead of the other way around. Or make unresearched implants very expensive to simulate an 'import' of that implant.
Illegal tech implants should still always be gated behind needing appropiate bio-tech 6 and illegal-tech research or the use of an emag. Don't need an army of assistants with adrenals.

Actionb wrote:There's never enough time for roboticists and scientists to give out all the neat toys and implants they research. Even if the round goes on for 90 minutes.
Letting medbay do the implanting and augmenting always felt like a straight forward, obvious thing - but they never gain access to these items.
Having a dispenser fueled by limbs and organs in surgery is a great idea. Who cares if you have to gut five monkeymen to get an implant. It's not like MD's are super busy people.
Obviously, the availability of implants should be tied to science's research. Otherwise you could do weird shortcuts by using hi-tech implants to fuel research instead of the other way around. Or make unresearched implants very expensive to simulate an 'import' of that implant.
Illegal tech implants should still always be gated behind needing appropiate bio-tech 6 and illegal-tech research or the use of an emag. Don't need an army of assistants with adrenals.

Just one note. You can change them to bring unresearchable by changing reliability to certain stat. This is also why power research tends to take longer because at the start they cannot disassemble super cells for higher research
Unless they use the robotics trick but what ever

You just need to be able to extract peoples organs, and implant them in other people. 2 hearts? Marginal stun resistance/faster stam regen. 10 hearts? You're a bloated fat fuck but you're hard as hell to put down.

Finally ghetto medbay would be put to use, and you'd see sneaky body snatchers raiding the morgue for precious organs.

That'd be fucking sweet actually, being able to implant yourself with more organs.

Man, I can see setting up a ghetto genetics/surgery lab in Cargo as viable income source.

Organ cloning is a growth industry, after all.

Actually you know what would be really cool? If we could move the meat packing black market ship to the station. It'd fit thematically because if you set up a cloner somewhere you'd have not only a spaceworthy vessel but also all the tools you need to spew out infinite meat and organs.

How to get infinite organs (and biomass):
1) Have a willing test subject.
2) Kill them.
3) Have them succumb in the cloner.
4) Clone them.
5) Repeat from 3.

It wouldn't be difficult to get lots of organs quickly. Using monkey-people isn't too hard either.

Yeah just keep making them succumb forever until you're satisfied and then either defib them or let them get cloned all the way, so this could be abusable if annoying to do.

How about every time someone is cloned their organs are worth less?

Just make clone damage effect organ quality or some shit, or hell, in real life organs quickly spoil after death, why not the same for this?
Remove organs from the living or freshly murdered (half developed clones presumably not developing proper organs), otherwise you just get useless shit.

lumipharon wrote:Just make clone damage effect organ quality or some shit, or hell, in real life organs quickly spoil after death, why not the same for this?
Remove organs from the living or freshly murdered (half developed clones presumably not developing proper organs), otherwise you just get useless shit.

Yeah, having genetic damage effect organs would be a perfect balancing tool.
Any other concerns PK?

i just feel like the rewards should give much more basic stuff. low tier implants like welding sheild/hud implants, more blood bags, rare chems (omnizine, carpotoxin), more plasma for chem/viro, beneficial virology symptoms, more medkits, and things like that would all be way more reasonable rewards.
xrays, antidrops, cns rebooters, and all that end tier science shit shouldn't be a part of it at all.
getting stuff from emagging it is really really iffy and i only really see it being used by a validhunting crew who's pryed an emag off of a dead traitor.

i admit this idea has some potential, it (and by "it" i mainly mean the rewards) just needs to be toned way down.

btw helios i was really heated the other day when i was replying to this thread, i want you to know i have no beef with you on a personal level.

PKPenguin321 wrote:i just feel like the rewards should give much more basic stuff. low tier implants like welding sheild/hud implants, more blood bags, rare chems (omnizine, carpotoxin), more plasma for chem/viro, beneficial virology symptoms, more medkits, and things like that would all be way more reasonable rewards.
xrays, antidrops, cns rebooters, and all that end tier science shit shouldn't be a part of it at all.
getting stuff from emagging it is really really iffy and i only really see it being used by a validhunting crew who's pryed an emag off of a dead traitor.

i admit this idea has some potential, it (and by "it" i mainly mean the rewards) just needs to be toned way down.

btw helios i was really heated the other day when i was replying to this thread, i want you to know i have no beef with you on a personal level.

Balanced features end up being un-used.
Welding implants can be made with only syringe guns, as can implanted SEC/Med/Diagonstic HUDs, they are never built. I've played enough robotics to see this.
If you don't give them good things, or exclusive things, it will end up being an unused feature and medbay will still be where it is right now.
"getting stuff from emagging it is really really iffy and i only really see it being used by a validhunting crew who's pryed an emag off of a dead traitor."
Same with staff and the cargo console.

You're also forgetting that the OP suggested the implants be unreliable. I don't know what unreliable implants do but it really wouldn't be hard to make the implants have a 50% chance of failing when used (not implanted, used).

Make it so there's a chance the person's immune system might initially reject the implant, causing them to take toxic damage for a considerable period of time until their body adjusts to it? Not enough to outright kill you but long enough to put you in the red.

Or maybe make an implant rejection drug that requires re application ala deus ex

Cloned organs should be less reliable than uhhh 'fresh' organs?

Also I would think cloning someone repeatedly would result in a poor quality clone (and organs) and eventually whatever comes out of that cloning pod would resemble something from The Thing. Because you know, copies from copies that were also from copies.

Helios wrote:

PKPenguin321 wrote:i just feel like the rewards should give much more basic stuff. low tier implants like welding sheild/hud implants, more blood bags, rare chems (omnizine, carpotoxin), more plasma for chem/viro, beneficial virology symptoms, more medkits, and things like that would all be way more reasonable rewards.
xrays, antidrops, cns rebooters, and all that end tier science shit shouldn't be a part of it at all.
getting stuff from emagging it is really really iffy and i only really see it being used by a validhunting crew who's pryed an emag off of a dead traitor.

i admit this idea has some potential, it (and by "it" i mainly mean the rewards) just needs to be toned way down.

btw helios i was really heated the other day when i was replying to this thread, i want you to know i have no beef with you on a personal level.

Balanced features end up being un-used.
Welding implants can be made with only syringe guns, as can implanted SEC/Med/Diagonstic HUDs, they are never built. I've played enough robotics to see this.
If you don't give them good things, or exclusive things, it will end up being an unused feature and medbay will still be where it is right now.
"getting stuff from emagging it is really really iffy and i only really see it being used by a validhunting crew who's pryed an emag off of a dead traitor."
Same with staff and the cargo console.

you are mistaken

Helios wrote: Balanced features end up being un-used.
Welding implants can be made with only syringe guns, as can implanted SEC/Med/Diagonstic HUDs, they are never built. I've played enough robotics to see this.
If you don't give them good things, or exclusive things, it will end up being an unused feature and medbay will still be where it is right now.
"getting stuff from emagging it is really really iffy and i only really see it being used by a validhunting crew who's pryed an emag off of a dead traitor."
Same with staff and the cargo console.

Welding shield is amazing for just about everyone, as is no-drop (which isn't even that high tech!). HUD implants and nutriment pump not so much. But people just never ask for them. Same goes for augmentation. You have to be vocal about it on the radio and one or two guys will come knocking on your window.

Maybe that is because most roboticists/scientists are misanthropic elitist mad hermits that throw a tantrum whenever somebody is near their lab and people are used to getting a 'NEVERRR!! *hisssss*' as answer when asking for stuff.
Or it's because you have to trust the surgeon doing the implant... after all, they could be a changeling!

If self surgery were still a thing, you'd see people with implants more often

As it stands, putting yourself at risk of being killed during surgery is too much of a deterrent to actually go get the things

I used to get one of my doctors to implant the medhud in me every round as CMO, then one of them murdered me.

I don't do it anymore.

It's a risk worth taking for me. Hell, sure it gets you killed once or twice, but shit happens.

If we do implement more organs then selling them via cargo would be a really good idea, just get some cargo points for them.

Now imagine a rev round where the heads of staff have hold up in cargo and are cutting open living assistants for their organs, good times.

Why not make a dedicated implant machine tied to the research network in the surgery room. All the benefit of medbay doing the grunt work but still limited by R&D (like mechs)

More implantable alien organs would be fun also. Space bee venom, hive bot armor plating, bear claws, slime core organ implants that do minor but cool things (grey core allows you to summon monkeys out of thin air!) make the hostile and non hostile version of the organs do different things. And of course implanting human brains into simple animals.

For the organ harvest traitor objective how about instead of steal the heart of X, make it steal 8 unique hearts or steal one of each organ from different people. Even more creepy!