/tg/Station 13

Posted: **Fri Nov 20, 2015 10:53 pm**

Can we perhaps get a ruling on people who do one of the following when the map rotation chooses a map they don't like:

1. Call the shuttle as soon as they can and then keep it called.

2. Suicide or ghost.

3. Start round restart votes.

4. Try to fuck up the station or cause chaos to get the shuttle called for a map change.

Posted: **Fri Nov 20, 2015 10:58 pm**

firecage wrote: 1. Call the shuttle as soon as they can and then keep it called.

2. Suicide or ghost.

3. Start round restart votes.

4. Try to fuck up the station or cause chaos to get the shuttle called for a map change.

1: As a head? Headban maybe.
2: No.
3: Unsure on this, probably not.
4: As a nonantag? Start making ban requests or ahelping.

Posted: **Fri Nov 20, 2015 11:12 pm**

Saegrimr, well, I included the suicide thing, because it was annoying when the same 5 or 7 people ran to the HoP line and oxygentank suicided every time it was a map they disliked.

Posted: **Fri Nov 20, 2015 11:46 pm**

At worst, the janitor has to clean up.

Alternatively, them readied up at roundstart improves antag selection and gives the chef some extra meat to work with.

Posted: **Sat Nov 21, 2015 4:46 am**

Saegrimr wrote:At worst, the janitor has to clean up.

Alternatively, them readied up at roundstart improves antag selection and gives the chef some extra meat to work with.

Well, hopefully they are not in an important role, because in that case suicide would be really shitty.

Posted: **Sat Nov 21, 2015 5:03 am**

Alex Crimson wrote:Well, hopefully they are not in an important role, because in that case suicide would be really shitty.

Well we already headbans for roundstart suicides, and engineering bans for the same thing isn't unheard of.

Anything else isn't really that big of an issue. Chaplain maybe since the HoP can't open more chaplain slots?

Posted: **Sat Nov 21, 2015 5:05 am**

You could just stop voting meme maps :^)

______________

For Less Shitposting, I think there's two sides of the coin to this issue. There are those who try to ruin the round because of the map, and there are those who troll by voting for a map because muh map maymays [like Birdboat or Mini on Highpop].

I do wonder though why people still shitpost OOC because it's not box when they equally refuse to vote for box [because they assume it's default, which it should be

]

How does suicide at roundstart 'ruin the round' for someone unless they're in a headrole, which is already punishable?

UPDATE

and the jobs Saeg mentioned.

Posted: **Sat Nov 21, 2015 6:46 am**

The only maps that are really unbearable are disk, dream, and birdboat.

I think the biggest problem is that all these maps were just haphazardly thrown into the rotation with not even the slightest popular vote, so the flaws of the rotation system are being seen (majority does not rule, even if 90% wanted Box, Meta, and maaaaaaaybe Ass [still a bad map comparatively, but playable and seemingly popular at lowpop for some reason], we'd still wind up on a meme map from time to time for several consecutive rounds, which satifies almost no one - it's a slightly exaggerated point but still valid, and these ARE the most popular maps by far anyway). So, no one is satisfied and we rotate to a meme map anyway - of course people are going to, in large, want to get the hell out of there as fast as possible. We've given each of the maps an earnest shot over the last month or so, we have our opinions at this point, and I doubt they will change.

When will we discuss and vote which maps to keep and which to discard IG? Or are we going to continue to bloat ourselves with any and every 'new map' someone half-asses together in an afternoon with no requirements to be, or to stay on the server aside from being updated, when there are objective problems at the core of these three maps design that make them unfixable and are largely unpopular?

Posted: **Sat Nov 21, 2015 9:52 am**

It's simply a side-effect of map rotation system. What did you think was gonna happen when you implemented it?

Apart from what Saegrimr said, I don't think there's much to be done.

Posted: **Sat Nov 21, 2015 10:37 am**

If you don't want roundstart suicides, remove disc and birdboat.

Posted: **Sat Nov 21, 2015 4:52 pm**

Abusing restart votes will net a warning for the first time followed by a short ban, increasing each time. The reason for this is that if you do a restart vote, a fairly long timer starts on another vote and if something breaks later on, players won't be able to vote a restart.

Posted: **Mon Nov 23, 2015 6:16 am**

We have no quality control on the codebase side for maps, so it's a failing on both sides here.

Posted: **Mon Nov 23, 2015 3:55 pm**

Yeeeea if you're going to force me to play on shit maps, don't try to OOC enforce me to play them as you see fit.

If I'm captain on a shit map I will try to call the shuttle sooner, if I'm an assistant on a shit map I'm more likely to yell on radio for shuttle calls, etc.

Posted: **Mon Nov 23, 2015 4:14 pm**

Oldman Robustin wrote:If I'm captain on a shit map I will try to call the shuttle sooner, if I'm an assistant on a shit map I'm more likely to yell on radio for shuttle calls, etc.

You're such a baby, Oldman Robustin. The sort of spoil sport who destroys other people's fun because his preference wasn't adhered to 100%. And this applies to everyone who shares your attitude, who didn't post.

Instead, what you can do is provide actual feedback on the maps, so they can become better.

Posted: **Mon Nov 23, 2015 4:53 pm**

How the fuck are you gonna complain about someone ghosting when they don't want to play

How about we ban every person who suicide HoPlines

Maybe we should ban every person who idles and doesn't join in the game because they don't want to play

And frankly, I don't understand the problem with people starting round restart votes, consiredering non-votes are counted as no.

If over half the server wants to restart the round enough that they vote on it, then why shouldn't they be able to?

What's the point of restart if admins veto it every time that someone starts one?

Posted: **Mon Nov 23, 2015 6:44 pm**

Jobban people who suicide at roundstart. If they do it as Assistant, jobban them from Assistant too. Problem solved.

Posted: **Mon Nov 23, 2015 7:42 pm**

Or just remove the shitty maps that people vote ironically anyways?

Posted: **Mon Nov 23, 2015 8:39 pm**

Poorman wrote:And frankly, I don't understand the problem with people starting round restart votes, consiredering non-votes are counted as no.

If over half the server wants to restart the round enough that they vote on it, then why shouldn't they be able to?

What's the point of restart if admins veto it every time that someone starts one?

Because restart votes have a long timer on them. Say that someone restart votes at the beginning of the round and it doesn't pass. Later, the game breaks and the round can't end. All the admins are asleep. Oh look now players can't restart the round because of your memery. This has actually happened before by the way.

Also if you think that doing a restart vote will change the map, you are an idiot. Map rotation isn't rolled until the shuttle has arrived/departed. Restart votes will never result in a map change.

Restart votes auto fail if an admin is online.

Posted: **Mon Nov 23, 2015 8:57 pm**

>YOU CANT FORCE ME TO PLAY

Don't hit "ready" or "join" if you see a map you dislike then?

Posted: **Mon Nov 23, 2015 9:07 pm**

But then they wouldn't get their precious antag roll. Apparently, a map you don't like is objectively horrible, unless you roll antag... in which case it's the best map.

Posted: **Mon Nov 23, 2015 10:08 pm**

TheNightingale wrote:But then they wouldn't get their precious antag roll. Apparently, a map you don't like is objectively horrible, unless you roll antag... in which case it's the best map.

You can usually tell who's antag by who yells "NO! don't restart!" If something happens that requires a map restart. :^)

Posted: **Mon Nov 23, 2015 10:14 pm**

TheNightingale wrote:But then they wouldn't get their precious antag roll. Apparently, a map you don't like is objectively horrible, unless you roll antag... in which case it's the best map.

I sense a great disturbance in the force, as if a dozen or so minds suddenly suffered cognitive dissonance.

Seriously though, when can we start culling the people who are here to solely play antag? They contribute nothing of value to the game.

Posted: **Mon Nov 23, 2015 10:17 pm**

Cull! CULL!

Posted: **Tue Nov 24, 2015 1:33 am**

Why does everyone hate birdboat its the second best map.

Posted: **Tue Nov 24, 2015 2:15 am**

birb is great

Posted: **Tue Nov 24, 2015 3:29 am**

1. its got no cool pets, instead of pete its pun pun, pon pon, and pin pin, and popo or something probably
2. perma is retarded
3. maint spiders and soul shard are retarded
4. hos cannot even get his hands on a flashbang, but detective gets an office
5.something else i forget
6. something else i forget
7. tons of other stuff I'm too lasy to say

Posted: **Tue Nov 24, 2015 6:14 am**

Telling people to just not play at all because they don't want to play an objectively worse map than BOX MASTER RACE is a bit silly, especially when we try to balance the rest of the game under the exact opposite mentality.

Posted: **Tue Nov 24, 2015 7:42 am**

I think the reasonable thing for people to do is to accept when their not-completely-preferred map is chosen and make the best of it. The issue is that some people don't want to do the reasonable thing.

I did also comment in the map rotation threads that I support map rotation for a limited amount of time (a few months), after which I think a single, not-box-station map should be selected and should become the only map which is played on TGS servers.

Posted: **Tue Nov 24, 2015 7:46 am**

I used to be hella into the Counter Strike : Source mapping community, and in my time, I've seen some truly dreadfully designed maps. That's probably why I have a higher tolerance towards this sort of thing.

Speaking from experience, we won't hit the epitomy of bad map design unless the entire thing is a time trial atop a massive cock going into a pink anus.

Posted: **Tue Nov 24, 2015 8:03 am**

No SS13 map can ever be as bad as Aztec in CS:GO. It's impossible.

Posted: **Tue Nov 24, 2015 8:17 am**

The real comparison here would be round start suiciding because the map isn't de dust every single game.

I don't know how people can be happy with just one map in any game, like seriously.

Posted: **Tue Nov 24, 2015 8:38 am**

lumipharon wrote:The real comparison here would be round start suiciding because the map isn't de dust every single game.

I don't know how people can be happy with just one map in any game, like seriously.

There's a massive difference between a map on SS13 and a map for a first person shooter.

In those games you spend five to twenty minutes on the map shooting people in a mostly static environment, in SS13 your excepted to play on this map for hours at a time, where most of it is in a non-combat capacity.

Not to mention the learning curve for SS13, and its maps, is far longer than a stock FPS map.

The comparison is unfounded.

Posted: **Tue Nov 24, 2015 8:39 am**

The reason for that to be the case on SS13 is because each of the maps is incredibly complex and takes months to learn well. Counter Strike maps (especially dust or dust2) are much, much simpler than even the derelict, let alone the station proper. So comparing "1 map on ss13" to "1 map on cs:go" isn't fair in the slightest.

The main reasons for preferring one map is to avoid division due to choice. People would assume that choice and options are good, right? Sure, when these choices only affect your character (like whether you spawn with a backpack, satchel or duffle bag), but when the choices impact everyone and you have plurality or majority rule, it leaves people to have the (completely correct) opinion that other people's opinion was forced on them. An opinion which does not even become a thought if the option is never even given to anyone.

As a game dev, it's kind of fun to go through options menus for various games and see which things the developers could not decide on and try to guess why that is the case.

But anyway, that's the reason you'd want to avoid as many options as you can from the dev perspective. Simply to avoid splitting the community. From the player side, it comes down to knowing how things work, being able to predict outcomes, to know how things work, etc. Essentially if you are on a map you are unfamiliar with, you can't properly predict the outcome of the decisions you make, because you lack the knowledge to do so. This makes you unable to make educated and meaningful choice, and the outcomes of decisions can feel fairly arbitrary to you. If you're on a single map, you actually have the chance to learn it in a reasonable amount of time, and apply this knowledge much sooner than if the maps changed all the time. Knowing this sort of meta game is extremely important for players to make good and reasonable decisions. Yes, I said meta game. I know "metagaming" is a dirty word here, but a level of understanding the game, how it works, what usually happens, etc. is incredibly important for this game to even work, no matter how absolute your "METAGAMING BAD RAWR" opinion is

.

I've rather fiercely opposed any differentiation between subsequent rounds or between the two/three servers for as long as I've existed... the map rotation thing is the first time I agreed with differentiation, even though the agreement is temporary.

Posted: **Tue Nov 24, 2015 8:42 am**

It only took me like two months to learn literally everything about Box. As a player, I need more maps or else the game is going to get stale since there won't be any new discovery and gimmicks on different maps. As an example, you can only use the crusher as a mass murder tool without prep on bird boat. You are also only able to really make use of EMP'd defibs on Metastation since there is an EMP grenade in maint.

All of these minor differences can have HUGE impact on rounds, and as a game, if we let SS13 actively stagnate then we have failed as designers and players.

Posted: **Tue Nov 24, 2015 8:46 am**

How have we let the game stagnate?

Most SS13 servers improve the game via content added to it, but they keep the same maps.

Sure, you can point to some obscure server and claim they do map rotations, but the biggest SS13 servers really tend to stick to a single map.

Posted: **Tue Nov 24, 2015 8:57 am**

Zilenan91 wrote:---

TGS developers will not be able to keep developing content anywhere near as fast as you consume it. Personally I would be way more concerned about appealing to new players with normal play time, who I'd assume would require at least 4 months to learn the game and map, than players who play constantly, who manage to do this in 2 months. The thing is, learning the map is what allows you BEGIN developing strategies and tactics and such. There are 7 departments, 35 or so jobs, 70 or so rooms, 30 or so major systems and 1200 different types of item/object. You will not get through all of it in even 1.5 years at normal play times.

Posted: **Tue Nov 24, 2015 9:01 am**

Steelpoint wrote:How have we let the game stagnate?

Most SS13 servers improve the game via content added to it, but they keep the same maps.

Sure, you can point to some obscure server and claim they do map rotations, but the biggest SS13 servers really tend to stick to a single map.

I wasn't saying we let the game stagnate, I'm saying what we've done is helped it to not stagnate.

Posted: **Tue Nov 24, 2015 8:12 pm**

3. Start round restart votes

Only thing that ever comes out of this is people jokingly saying "i ded plz r restart"

Posted: **Sun Nov 29, 2015 12:17 am**

Someone actually set dreamstation on fire as a nonantag to get a different map. The absolute madman.

Posted: **Tue Dec 01, 2015 4:41 pm**

It's anecdotal but I'm thinking it's gotten better, at least when I've played on things that aren't Box. Annoying when it does happen and sometimes to the great detriment of the round, but on the whole it's more tolerable now than it was in the first week after rotation. I've now seen quite a few normal rounds on Dream and Meta which are probably the best and most similar to Box.

Posted: **Wed Dec 02, 2015 5:09 pm**

I so rarely play anything but assistant it doesn't really matter whether I suicide or not.

I just have a severe distaste for Meta's layout and maint system so I'd rather get into observe mode and have a chance for holoparasite fun so I don't waste an hour on a map I dislike, in a role for negligible effect on the round.

Posted: **Wed Dec 02, 2015 6:29 pm**

Kor wrote:>YOU CANT FORCE ME TO PLAY

Don't hit "ready" or "join" if you see a map you dislike then?

Posted: **Wed Dec 02, 2015 11:49 pm**

TheNightingale wrote:
Kor wrote:>YOU CANT FORCE ME TO PLAY

Don't hit "ready" or "join" if you see a map you dislike then?

Not sure if this is an appropriate place to ask, but what is it about other maps people dislike? I'm curious to know, especially since I've made a map for private games with friends before, so if people could provide more feedback than "box is only good map" then maybe someone else could make a map that people like to play on - or people just shit on map rotation because change = bad and why would I want to play anything I'm not used to

Seriously though, if you have valid complaints share them instead of crying all the time, it's much more helpful to everyone and less irritating if you share the reasons you hate things

Posted: **Thu Dec 03, 2015 1:05 am**

Qbopper wrote:
TheNightingale wrote:
Kor wrote:>YOU CANT FORCE ME TO PLAY

Don't hit "ready" or "join" if you see a map you dislike then?
Not sure if this is an appropriate place to ask, but what is it about other maps people dislike? I'm curious to know, especially since I've made a map for private games with friends before, so if people could provide more feedback than "box is only good map" then maybe someone else could make a map that people like to play on - or people just shit on map rotation because change = bad and why would I want to play anything I'm not used to

Seriously though, if you have valid complaints share them instead of crying all the time, it's much more helpful to everyone and less irritating if you share the reasons you hate things

Asking people to be reasonable and give adequate feedback was your first mistake.

Posted: **Thu Dec 03, 2015 4:18 am**

Qbopper wrote:so if people could provide more feedback than "box is only good map" then maybe someone else could make a map that people like to play on - or people just shit on map rotation because change = bad and why would I want to play anything I'm not used to

Well I can't speak for all the people, but

I can see how this may not be apparent for people who admin or code for the game, because that's a big time investment with which they're okay with, but some of us actually don't have much time to play the game. Maps take a while to even learn how to navigate them, let alone be efficient with it and know where to get stuff, which is a pretty important skill for playing sensitive jobs as well as antags.

It's not really about quality, it's just down to the fact that when I join exhausted after a long day for may be one or two rounds of 2D spessmen, I don't want it to be stumbling around trying to figure out where everything is. It would be bad enough with just Box and Meta, but we have I believe over five fucking maps currently in rotation! That's insane. That's unnecessary. It just causes confusion for those of us that don't know those maps and can't or won't (and either is fine from player standpoint) spend time and effort that could be spent elsewhere learning them.

Can't imagine how new players feel like. SS13 is a hellova confusing game at first as it is.

Posted: **Thu Dec 03, 2015 5:24 am**

Lo6a4evskiy wrote:Can't imagine how new players feel like.

See... literally nobody cares about new players. This was part of why I think map rotation should be temporary btw - to have players experience all the maps, and then decide on one TG map. Map rotation is awful for new players.

Posted: **Thu Dec 03, 2015 4:31 pm**

The don't ready argument is stupid.

I only really play a few rounds a night and if they're on a map I dislike, too fucking bad I guess?

Posted: **Thu Dec 03, 2015 4:47 pm**

Considering how the average round can last for 45 minutes to well over a hour, and your time to play may be limited, telling people to fuck off and not play on a map they dislike is not only insulting but moronic when they likely have no choice.

This is not some game where your on some bad map for five minutes, you either have to be stuck on a map for a hour you don't like and don't know or you have to wait for it to end a hour later.

Also I agree with what was noted in that map rotation does not help new players, its hard enough getting into the game let alone having to memorise a new map layout constantly.

Posted: **Thu Dec 03, 2015 4:55 pm**

I think we just need to accept that not everyone is going to like every map, thats just part of a map rotation.
You have to see that a lot of people have been very happy with the map rotation, it does keep the game fresh, but of course is limited by the choice of maps.
It once again seems like the vocal minority exclaiming that its "the worst thing since ever!", until they find something else newer to hate.

You also cannot design this game to be easy for new players, its just not possible, there are so many details, so many things to remember, the whole gameplay and style is such a step learning curve its always going to be hard. Seriously when I was first join I wasn't worried about where stuff was, I was more worried about how to actually do shit like equip clothes or hit someone or why I was dying from touching a wire.

However I do admit the current "selection" process for the map is really confusing or just plain not known. I think about 5 mins into the start of the map there should be a public, obvious, vote for people choose the next map. Its a small quick decision that doesn't effect the round and doesn't involve fiddling with preferences.

Posted: **Thu Dec 03, 2015 10:39 pm**

Steelpoint wrote:Considering how the average round can last for 45 minutes to well over a hour, and your time to play may be limited, telling people to fuck off and not play on a map they dislike is not only insulting but moronic when they likely have no choice.

This is not some game where your on some bad map for five minutes, you either have to be stuck on a map for a hour you don't like and don't know or you have to wait for it to end a hour later.

The "Fuck off and don't play" is in response to people mass-suiciding or sabotaging the round because they didn't get their favorite map. Yes, having shitty maps is an actual problem, but people griefing because FUCK ASSSTATION or "SUICIDE LINE HOP" is just as retarded.

/tg/Station 13

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