/tg/Station 13

Does the action cause any BRUTE, BURN, TOX, OXY, BRAIN, or CLONE damage to the parties involved?

If not, it's not harm, because those are the only ways to harm a human.

Being turned into a monkey does none of these but we consider it harm

As players, there's also the consideration of "is X player being a dick? If so, arrest the shit out of him."

Also, what about mental torture? Surely that's harmful, if it can be found.

Not-Dorsidarf wrote:Being turned into a monkey does none of these but we consider it harm

Pretty sure the reason we consider that harm is because it allows future harm, which can still be defined in the terms goof outlined.

You've posted that in topics before. Did it end the debate there or did it mysteriously still carry on after you delivered this deep wisdom?

Pretty much anything that pushes someone closer to crit or strips their humanity away is harm, brain damage can probably be ignored since you can't exactly kill someone with it (barring goofmed getting merged)

Shaps wrote:Pretty much anything that pushes someone closer to crit or strips their humanity away is harm, brain damage can probably be ignored since you can't exactly kill someone with it (barring goofmed getting merged)

Of course brain damage is harm. You see the part where it says brain damage?

CPTANT wrote:

Shaps wrote:Pretty much anything that pushes someone closer to crit or strips their humanity away is harm, brain damage can probably be ignored since you can't exactly kill someone with it (barring goofmed getting merged)

Of course brain damage is harm. You see the part where it says brain damage?

It's not like real life where brain damage will kill you dead as shit, are you going to be the secborg who goes out of his way to brig the chaplain every time he uses his bible on someone because there's a chance he might do a little brain damage?

Dehumanization, force borging, forced surgery in general probably. Yes brain damage counts, especially when it causes you to slam into airlocks and knock you out.

Don't forget about open access to live lethal-only firearms to untrusted personnel (OOC: People who are in antag-enabled roles unless proven to be trustworthy/People acting 'antagonistically', which *does* include sec officers and the Captain) when there is not a existential threat from non-Humans, like a blob/Xenomorph infestation. That doesn't mean to ignore the warden waking out with the lasers without questioning him what he's going to do with them.
That means you can refuse to let John McTider into the armoury when the laser guns are on the racks there but not if there's only tasers. Short of using them as blunt instruments, there is no conceivable way of them being used as instruments of harm and he could use literally anything to hit someone else with. E-guns are a little blurry but they have a disable setting so there isn't a certainty that they'd be used for harm.

I've not had a problem when using that standard to judge when people should and shouldn't be allowed to let into the armoury

Not-Dorsidarf wrote:Being turned into a monkey does none of these but we consider it harm

It's been a while since I've played because FO4 is slowly sucking the life out of me but don't SEs cause a tiny bit of radiation damage? If so you can argue that it does cause harm.

Not-Dorsidarf wrote:Being turned into a monkey does none of these but we consider it harm

When you become a monkey you reverse in evolution, resulting in reduced brain capacity, therefore brain damage, therefore harm.

Cheimon wrote:Also, what about mental torture? Surely that's harmful, if it can be found.

Quite frankly if I could punish for "mental torture" as an AI than I can unleash intense amounts of rules lawyering to lock the entire station down and shut off comms. I don't see it as harm.

Zilenan91 wrote:As players, there's also the consideration of "is X player being a dick? If so, arrest the shit out of him."

That's not harm to be arrested, contrary to what some assistants might squeal.

Jacquerel wrote:You've posted that in topics before. Did it end the debate there or did it mysteriously still carry on after you delivered this deep wisdom?

The topic I posted it in did indeed end after that, yes.

Saegrimr wrote:Dehumanization, force borging, forced surgery in general probably. Yes brain damage counts, especially when it causes you to slam into airlocks and knock you out.

Yeah, monkeying as stated before lowers mental capacity by reversing the evolution of man, meaning brain damage, meaning harm. Surgery not done properly is harm, due to failure chances to injure the patient. Force borging requires removing the brain, which dehumanizes the subject when placed into an MMI, and is therefore harm.

Anonmare wrote:Don't forget about open access to live lethal-only firearms to untrusted personnel (OOC: People who are in antag-enabled roles unless proven to be trustworthy/People acting 'antagonistically', which *does* include sec officers and the Captain) when there is not a existential threat from non-Humans, like a blob/Xenomorph infestation. That doesn't mean to ignore the warden waking out with the lasers without questioning him what he's going to do with them.
That means you can refuse to let John McTider into the armoury when the laser guns are on the racks there but not if there's only tasers. Short of using them as blunt instruments, there is no conceivable way of them being used as instruments of harm and he could use literally anything to hit someone else with. E-guns are a little blurry but they have a disable setting so there isn't a certainty that they'd be used for harm.

I've not had a problem when using that standard to judge when people should and shouldn't be allowed to let into the armoury

I'm mainly trying to discuss INSTANT harm such as getting a bullet in the forehead or getting stuck with a lightsaber, not POSSIBLE harm from things people could potentially do. These are good points, though, and I'd recommend this setup to AIs handling the neverending struggle of Warden VS AI.

Any involuntary application of a dna injector is harm because of rads.

While it's a good guideline as any, making it a hard rule would only enforce the idea that players should all look into the code to see how things work behind the scenes instead of what the action appears to be at face-value as the game presents it.

There's a lot that needs to be picked up intuitively that we'd be losing with this.

Yeah, but this is for cases like "is mindswap harm?"

Monkeying doesn't cause actual brain damage. It just so happen that monkeys cannot do certain things.

Saying "it reduces brain capacity by reversing evolution and is therefore harm" is way more tenuous then letting people perform surgery beucae it doesn't actually cause any brute damage.

Surgery is allowed because it literally causes no harm, game mechanics wise.
Monkeying also causes no harm in of itself (game mechanics wise), but isn't allowed because it makes a human into a not human.
Mind swapping is allowed because the human itself is physically unharmed, just the "soul" is transferred.

And if you try to argue that the soul counts as part of a human, then that means borging a human, a monkified human, a human that gets his brain put in a lizard body etc etc would all still count as human in terms of asimov, which they obviously don't.

But Lumi, humanfied monkeys being killed and experimented on doesn't fall under law 1 though.

Same with humans that have ghosted - it's more of a OOC thing then an IC thing.
Basically it's not as clear cut as the OP states.

Humanified monkeys are assumed to have volunteered until they say otherwise. If they volunteer, it's self-harm - so the Ai doesn't have to stop it. Same principle for rage cages, duels, being borged, going into an alien hive with a bomb, etc.

(At least, I /think/ that's how it works...)

Fun detail: Asimov came up with these laws so he could write stories about how ambiguous they are.

We don't run asimov, we don't even run asimov+logical conclusions

We run asimov with a bunch of inconsistent handwaving to smooth out the ordeal of having to play AI with a focus on fun every now and then, that's it.

imblyings wrote:We don't run asimov, we don't even run asimov+logical conclusions

We run asimov with a bunch of inconsistent handwaving to smooth out the ordeal of having to play AI with a focus on fun every now and then, that's it.

We barely even run that, we run Asimov+exceptions to make the game work/shit being funny + a huge policy of how to act in situations because people don't spend all their time thinking about how Asimov laws works in 2d spessmans.

Also > silicon policy still exists but isn't linked anywhere that matters

pls