/tg/Station 13

I like the idea of an off-station satellite to store corpses dirty prisoners so I'm gonna try and remake the prison station to replace perma and maybe gulag (seriously who uses that).

Current Progress Satellite itself is pretty much done. Wiring, piping, buttons, and area placement is done, so now would be the time to criticize the structure and secureness of it. Need to start working on removing perma from the station and turning it into a docking port for the 2 new shuttles. One will be meant for transporting multiple people, while the second will be for quick-sending singular prisoners on a 1-way shuttle only controllable from either the dock or the warden's office on the actual prison satellite.

I might add an escape pod for dirty criminals to be sent on similar to what xhuis is doing for the gulag but I don't think that fits well with the theme of perma being a permanent residence once you're there.

We've had extensive talks about prison station and I think the general consensus was that it's not a good idea.

I think it's cool, however.

Last time we discussed this it was generally seen by a majority that this would have a negative impact on the game.

Points mainly being that it makes putting people into perma far more time consuming, it permanently removes people from the game as its impossible to escape from a off-station prison (at least station perma can be escaped from) and that it's not always feasible to drag people off station.

I wonder how many people these days even know sec used to have a satellite prison. It was tiny but it was there. Was only ever used by sec lings to hide bodies.

I was actually hoping this was gonna be a themed map where the entire station is a forced labor camp, and antag sec was turned on.

Steelpoint wrote:Last time we discussed this it was generally seen by a majority that this would have a negative impact on the game.

Points mainly being that it makes putting people into perma far more time consuming, it permanently removes people from the game as its impossible to escape from a off-station prison (at least station perma can be escaped from) and that it's not always feasible to drag people off station.

I'm trying to implement ways to get around these points so it'd be similarly easy as the on-station.

I'm planning on adding a shuttle pod that can be controlled from the brig or the satellite's warden office to be sent/recieved manually. It'd still rely on the prisoner actually bothering to move into his new home, which the gulag already has issues with. There will also be a main shuttle for more personal transfers.

Satellite has some solars for both power and an excuse to have an EVA suit on-board for escaping. There will be a comms system similar to mining's so its not just dead noise the entire time you're there.

I was under the assumption that the perma-wing was there to serve as the more asimov-friendly method of execution, as in if you're in there, you could also be dead depending on how the HoS/Warden felt when giving your sentence. I feel like if it gets to the point on-station that you can't be assed to toss someone in a pod and ship it off real quick, then odds are the person you're permaing isn't the nicest guy.


Antag sec is long dead so hopefully there'd be more actual use compared to beforehand when it was apparently just a body grounds for antagsec to keep their victims at.

having a prison sattelite might actually be pretty cool

I mean, I'm not against it. If you can get it to work then kudos.

Of course one thing to note is that during Rev anyone Heads (either side) over here count as MIA. So keep that in mind.

Sure, let's repeat this mistake again, why not.

The labour camp is a massive improvement over the old prison station, which was used for only two things: as an antagonist stronghold (because no security officer bothered with it) or as the head of staff's rev round refuge, never as an actual permabrig prison. The station was also impossible to storm from the station, meaning every attack on it during rev rounds ended with the attackers defeated, resulting in rev rounds lasting forever, since neither heads or staff, nor revolutionaries could kill the other.

No amount of theming can make prison "fun", so we ended up having endless threads about "making prison more fun" with nobody capable of suggesting anything that would actually achieve this. And then we had the countless threads about the prison station being either "too easy to escape from" or "too difficult to escape from". Nothing was ever right about the prison station, yet removing it caused a heck of a lot of drama anyway, even though everyone agreed that it was broken.

A while after its removal, the prison camp was added as a replacement and it is light years better than what the prison station was.

LiamLime wrote:Sure, let's repeat this mistake again, why not.

The labour camp is a massive improvement over the old prison station, which was used for only two things: as an antagonist stronghold (because no security officer bothered with it) or as the head of staff's rev round refuge, never as an actual permabrig prison. The station was also impossible to storm from the station, meaning every attack on it during rev rounds ended with the attackers defeated, resulting in rev rounds lasting forever, since neither heads or staff, nor revolutionaries could kill the other.

No amount of theming can make prison "fun", so we ended up having endless threads about "making prison more fun" with nobody capable of suggesting anything that would actually achieve this. And then we had the countless threads about the prison station being either "too easy to escape from" or "too difficult to escape from". Nothing was ever right about the prison station, yet removing it caused a heck of a lot of drama anyway, even though everyone agreed that it was broken.

A while after its removal, the prison camp was added as a replacement and it is light years better than what the prison station was.

This part holds absolutely no grounds now as leaving the station z-level counts as fleeing the station for heads of staff/revs. Security can't be antags anymore so I can't think of any group besides cultists who may find it a decent spot to hold up, even though theres things like the white shuttle now that are immensely better than it.

If anything, be off-station in perma gives smart/prepared prisoners(probably antags) time to get shit up for escape as there'd be even less people watching them. I've addressed issues taking prisoners there and potential escapes already in the OP.

The prison station at the time was on the same z-level as the station. As to the other thing: wizards, changelings and aliens usually hid their bodies in it and created nests or healing spots. I acknowledge that everything in that paragraph could get solved by moving the prison station onto another z-level. I however maintain that replacing either the labour camp, or the permabrig, with a prison station would solve none of the existing problems with these two place, and only introduce a few extra problems.

Updated OP with progress.

LiamLime wrote:Sure, let's repeat this mistake again, why not.

The labour camp is a massive improvement over the old prison station, which was used for only two things: as an antagonist stronghold (because no security officer bothered with it) or as the head of staff's rev round refuge, never as an actual permabrig prison. The station was also impossible to storm from the station, meaning every attack on it during rev rounds ended with the attackers defeated, resulting in rev rounds lasting forever, since neither heads or staff, nor revolutionaries could kill the other.

No amount of theming can make prison "fun", so we ended up having endless threads about "making prison more fun" with nobody capable of suggesting anything that would actually achieve this. And then we had the countless threads about the prison station being either "too easy to escape from" or "too difficult to escape from". Nothing was ever right about the prison station, yet removing it caused a heck of a lot of drama anyway, even though everyone agreed that it was broken.

A while after its removal, the prison camp was added as a replacement and it is light years better than what the prison station was.

Do you know the current win rate of Revs are?
81%
Do you know what Wizard Win Rate is?
8%
Changeling round Win Rate?
6%
What's wrong with giving a buff to Heads of Staff during a rev round?
Besides, it gives a climax to the round, the Heads trying to defend a small station, while waves of Humans try to break in. Like Malf, except instead of Humans Vs Beepsky and Laser Turrets, it is Humans Vs Humans.
And Protip, you can already make Perma a base, as officers/The Warden don't bother to check it.

i'm personally for this addition if we can find an easy, quick way to transfer them. it could be

Also, the current labor camp is EXACTLY how you described prison station Liam

I don't have a problem with a prison station except that I don't like the way it looks in the current screenshots purpleturnips posted. IE: I don't like your map so far.

What I had in mind for the design was just a prison built into a floating asteroid chunk. I might try to shape it up to be less boxy but for now I think it works, so I'm asking for criticism now its essentially done.

I think I'll try to make a PR some extra makeshift weapons for the true prison experience as well (shanks made from bedsheets and glass shards, 1-use crowbars made from bent metal rods, ect).

I liked the older idea of the Prison Station being on a planet nearby, it's more interesting that inserting it into yet another Asteroid.

Helios wrote: Do you know the current win rate of Revs are?
81%
Do you know what Wizard Win Rate is?
8%
Changeling round Win Rate?
6%
What's wrong with giving a buff to Heads of Staff during a rev round?

I don't recall saying anything to the contrary. As for climax, it is definitely not one. It was impossible to storm, and both groups knew this, which resulted in a stalemate and a neverending round - the exact opposite of a climax. It sounds good in your head, but there is no way to make it good in practice.

LiamLime wrote:

Helios wrote: Do you know the current win rate of Revs are?
81%
Do you know what Wizard Win Rate is?
8%
Changeling round Win Rate?
6%
What's wrong with giving a buff to Heads of Staff during a rev round?

I don't recall saying anything to the contrary. As for climax, it is definitely not one. It was impossible to storm, and both groups knew this, which resulted in a stalemate and a neverending round - the exact opposite of a climax. It sounds good in your head, but there is no way to make it good in practice.

How many space suits are on the station?
3 In mining
3 in Engineering
1 in atmos
4 in EVA
3 in security
1 in science
1 in medical
possibly infinite if genetics gets Cold resistance

Mining: 3
EVA: 8 (Metastation) / 4 (Boxstation)
Engineering: 2
Atmos: 1
Security: 2
HoS: 1
CE: 1
RD: 1
CMO: 1
Captain: 1

Twenty-one (or seventeen on Box).

And yet it didn't matter. Remember, we tried this. It didn't work in practice.

You are however latching on to a minor point, one which can be solved. Solve "making prison station fun" and "making it just hard enough to escape from" - not so hard that people would instantly suicide/ghost; and not so easy that guards will never leave a prisoner in there. These are the prison station's failing, not the dull rev rounds, which can be solved by moving the prison station to another z-level.

Prison station is not meant to be fun, if you end up there you fucked up.

This isn't dead by the way I swear I've just been preoccupied.

I feel like this would work well with the new prisoner job Kor was thinking of adding. What about a shuttle prisoners could use to go to the gulag? Or a prison transfer arrivals shuttle that would spawn people who select the prisoner job?

The prison station / gulag would rely on automated security (meaning walls, airlocks, etc.), it would nearly never have security officers there, since that simply isn't fun, and security has better things to do than to watch people meander up and down in boredom. If you spawned round-start prisoners on a prison station / gulag, they would be limited to interacting with only themselves - and chances are there would be only one. In order to have any hope in the prisoner role having any resemblance of fun, they would need to spawn in a more populous area, meaning the brig at minimum. So I don't think this would go well with the prisoner job.

But imagine how much fun it would be with like 4-5 prisoners. You could craft shanks, play b-ball, form a gang and haze newcomers sec tosses in with you, and if you get bored you can just go mine to serve your sentance and reenter the workforce as a paroled felon

Well take a look at what the prison station looks like in the spoiler in the OP.