/tg/Station 13

I feel like the station has an issue with resource scarcity in general (there isnt any), and that it will more or less be safe and self sustaining once power is up.

People have also complained our medical system is boring.

I however dont want to piss everyone off by iust up and nerfing things, so here's the thread.

Would nerfing cryo/medibots/sleepers/other roundstart infinite healing items improve the game or make it frustrating/tedious?

I personally would find it quite frustrating, and would not improve my rounds at all.

it would be pretty tedious to not be able to heal that 0.1 brute you have on every limb after slipping
although medical supplies should be made easier to sabotage, namely things that revive the dead
i joined before we had defibs, and if a traitor blew up genetics then dying would actually matter (unless you had competent botanists but you never did)
nowadays death isn't nearly as consequential as it once was

I feel like that'd end up being frustrating, especially since medkits are really cheap to order en-masse cargo. Cryo/sleepers/medibots are more of an ease-of-use thing that make it so doctors don't have to use up 6 brute packs to heal up the 15 total damage that are spread out over someone's body from slight pressure damage

as it stands now, cryo cells are just barely enough to heal off the bleeding damage you get from spears imbedding, so if they were any worse, you'd likely end up going into crit and dying while inside of a cryo pod while the docs just kinda mull around jerking their syringe guns.

we already tried this when goof chem came out.

Unless we're going to go to an actual inyeresting med system, nerfing certsins parts of healing just fucks everyone off for no gain.

The only "healing" nerf should be making defibs CMO only.

Not-Dorsidarf wrote:The only "healing" nerf should be making defibs CMO only.

High-level R&D too, perhaps? Endgame medical gear is a little lacking (NVMedHUD and synthflesh, really).

TheNightingale wrote:

Not-Dorsidarf wrote:The only "healing" nerf should be making defibs CMO only.

High-level R&D too, perhaps? Endgame medical gear is a little lacking (NVMedHUD and synthflesh, really).

We had that at first, IIRC, but R&D would mass-produce defibs / assistants would break in and print them, and suddenly death held no fear

Add medical vending machines in the halls with things like band-aids and mini-med patches.

I wouldn't mind if there were shitty little understocked wall-mounted nanomeds in every department for those emergency heals.

Not-Dorsidarf wrote:

TheNightingale wrote:

Not-Dorsidarf wrote:The only "healing" nerf should be making defibs CMO only.

High-level R&D too, perhaps? Endgame medical gear is a little lacking (NVMedHUD and synthflesh, really).

We had that at first, IIRC, but R&D would mass-produce defibs / assistants would break in and print them, and suddenly death held no fear

Thats generally what end-game is.

One or more of the following has happened during the course of the round, and it has entered a end-game stage:

1. All the antagonists have been killed
2. The shuttle consoles have been rendered in accessable through normal means
3. The entire crew is dead due to antagonists
4. The station has been split into a gang of roving merchant survivalists and a hive of xenomorphs
5. Power has shut off, rioting occured, space law is no longer in effect and it essentially becomes a "Your own your own, do what you need to do" scenario
6. Security goes full on hitler mode with the support of admins, becomes security vs crew
7. The round type is extended, RnD does their job, everyone carrys around pulse rifles and rides in fully equipped durands
8. The round type is extended, admins are hosting a event very late into the round, everyone adapts to all the shit thats gone on during the round
*. Have you ever seen a station with a 60 hour round time? Bullet casings everywhere, everythings ripped off the floors, theres holes in the wall, dead corpses everywhere, ect ect.
*2. Go onto the main byond hub, and scroll to the very bottom of the list, All of those russian servers havent been restarted in easily a year, join up and see what it looks like.

Defibs are no longer the OP items of ye olde.
Now that patches don't heal corpses, they are far, far less powerful.

Some bay style (not indentical port) med system would be neat, and make doctors actually interesting and useful, but every time it gets suggested, it's drowned out by the tide of screaming validhunters and murderboners about notbeing able to magically heal all of your own wounds with a bruisepack.

Despite all the memespoutin about shit like spacewind being a more lethal game, combat have actual consequences like broken bones, dismemberment internal bleeding etc, is ACTUALLY more lethal and interesting gameplay.

I doubt it will ever happen though.

What about Defibs having a time limit and other limitations. if someone's dead for too long they do nothing. If they're husked, you're electrocuting a dessicated corpse(OOO! MAKE IT CATCH FIRE!)

They already have a time limit, and give the guy brain damage the closer they are to that limit.
And the main limitation is they won't defib anyone with more then X damage (I think it's like, 140 or something, not actually sure).

^talking about lowering round-start heals. proposes spreading out more round-start heals.

whut

on the topic at hand i think the problem with our current medical system and associated incompetence is that you have too many tools that do the same thing. basic healing chems are good enough that you never need the more compex ones, cryo can fix everything but realy hard bleed-out, blood-loss has no chem when everything else does and you need a bag or a donor and a bucket, you can scrounge up enough chems to fix cryo so that brain damage doesn't mater, cryo has enough mix for 2 rounds round start, defibrillators for people you didn't get in time and the surgery room. you have fuck tones of easily applied patches that fix the whole body for the two most common damage types, a pill that fixes the third, and hands that let you fix the fourth in addition to chems which do the same.

Its just to much crap. The reason shove them in cryo and ignore is such a meme is that it is the solution that fixes the most with the lest effort and it can be self service(actually a bug from what I have herd). cryo needs some nerfs, My personal suggestion is making cryo not heal anything over 10 so its only usable on critical patients

the fact that the station is usually full of dead abandoned corpses in the hallways and people limping everywhere with 5 hitpoints is proof that medical is perfect the way it is

Cryo got buffed to shit.

Previously, you had to have someone else turn it on for you, and it put you to sleep - you would either need to be taken out by someone else, or could resist out after like 2min or some shit.
Now, you can get in and turn it on yourself, and you're fully conscious, and auto pop out when fully healed (which is actually really dumb since it removes some utility of the tube).

Basically it removes the need for relying on other players (RIP doctors ever being useful), an makes you completely safe from getting fucked with while healing.
This shit is a real example of Hug-box.

Supermichael777 wrote:^talking about lowering round-start heals. proposes spreading out more round-start heals.

whut

on the topic at hand i think the problem with our current medical system and associated incompetence is that you have too many tools that do the same thing. basic healing chems are good enough that you never need the more compex ones, cryo can fix everything but realy hard bleed-out, blood-loss has no chem when everything else does and you need a bag or a donor and a bucket, you can scrounge up enough chems to fix cryo so that brain damage doesn't mater, cryo has enough mix for 2 rounds round start, defibrillators for people you didn't get in time and the surgery room. you have fuck tones of easily applied patches that fix the whole body for the two most common damage types, a pill that fixes the third, and hands that let you fix the fourth in addition to chems which do the same.

Its just to much crap. The reason shove them in cryo and ignore is such a meme is that it is the solution that fixes the most with the lest effort and it can be self service(actually a bug from what I have herd). cryo needs some nerfs, My personal suggestion is making cryo not heal anything over 10 so its only usable on critical patients

Cryo isn't the be-all end-all of medbay, it's still slower than using medkits/chems/sleepers most of the time.

I was just thinking about an experimental round where all methods of reviving people are gone. Just to see how bad it gets. No revival. no cyborgs, No shuttle. NO ESCAPE.

Don't nerf defibs. They're the only part of being a doctor that makes you better than the knuckle draggers!

Cloning is meant to be a punishment that is JUST a bit worse than actually not being found. It's basically being cuffed and locked up for a few minutes and then having to pray they've got brain damage healing chems ready.

Some of my favorite times in Medbay are when I'm forced to improvise. Power's out, nothing' stocked, and the defibs got EMPed? Oh man, do what you got to, doctor! For once in the goddamned round, your experience might actually mean something! It takes a special kind of doctor to revive the entire security by triaging power in the genetics APC, stabalizing them in a locker, and syringing mannitol and cryo into their veins under a cold shower.

In a split second in this game, you could die. The only thing about that that isn't horrifying is cloning. If we wanted to make revival in a round more scarce, death needs to be more scarce... But that would require a hundred changes and a lot of rethinking on how this game is meant to play out.

Raven776 wrote:Cloning is meant to be a punishment that is JUST a bit worse than actually not being found.

...what

Having seen many of my favourite things - medibots, in particular - nerfed into the ground, I would say that damaging things like these further would make them frustrating and tedious.

Finite isn't always better a few things need to go a long way for the sake of the game.

Like say what ift we limit the game to finite rounds to symbolize running out of stations then the server shuts down when we run out.

Saegrimr wrote:

Raven776 wrote:Cloning is meant to be a punishment that is JUST a bit worse than actually not being found.

...what

he's from after defibs were added and is a completely spoiled fucking brat is what

i assume that he meant to say a bit better.

I don't think nerfing sources of infinite healing is the solution to the boring medical system, instead I think encouraging their use is the solution. At the same time, forcing people to use medbay for any sort of healing is tedious, so allowing people to help themselves remains paramount.

What I suggest is to add a permanent damage mechanic: Half the damage you take cannot be recovered using anything portable - for example the things in medikits. This damage can only be recovered by the machines in medbay.

This also opens up the door for high tier RnD items, or new traitor steal targets the CMO could have, or new chemicals / plants / food /drinks, or new traitor uplink items / spells. All of these things could interact with this new permanent damage mechanic.

Some possible effects of these portable items is that they heal permanent damage, or reduce your intake of permanent damage, or enable devices to treat permanent damage.

For example, it could be made that only cryogenics can heal permanent damage, but an RnD module can be researched and added to sleepers to enable them to also heal permanent damage.

Traitors could have items that reduce their intake of permanent damage (implants or nanorobots!). Wizards could have a spell that heals their permanent damage (a spell they have to buy!), changelings could get a sting that heals their permanent damage when they absorb people or they could trade DNA for health.

Chefs, bartenders and chemists could get recipes which temporarily reduce permanent damage intake - say for 10 minutes. Botanists could even get a plant which can heal you, however it would have to be perfect.

There is one problem we should be aware of though, and that's accidents - when someone miss-clicks. I suggest that the first 10HP of received damage does not cause permanent damage for this reason.

A bit better, yeah.

Also, I was here when the defibs were originally added in. For the most part, people couldn't even figure out to chem people up before defibbing them.

But it still adds something for doctors to do that other people generally won't think to. Or maybe I'm just biased because I only played for about a month after defibs were added in and just came back a few weeks ago and now defibs are overused.

But for the most part, I'm still batoning shitcurity before they can shove people in the cloner that deserve to be defibbed instead.

I think we should make cryo how it used to be (IE: Something you need someone to help you with that makes you helpless and vulnerable

our medical system sucking isnt going to be fixed by balance changes, imo.

Yeah a lot of problems with our games combat comes from our simplistic medical system. It makes MD's kinda irrelevant since all of our health is just a sliding scale, so you just walk in, self serve in cryo, walk out, or just get a medkit and click on yourself five times and be good as well.

Nerfing infinite healing is exactly what Paprika tried to do, and it failed horribly in all ways possible.

As Miauw implies, the only way you can tackle any and all issues with our medical system is to undertake a complete overhaul of our medical system, and I wish you good luck.

What exactly is wrong with the medical system? Not enough ailments? Humans being too tough/easy to heal? The closest I have come to playing MD is when I play Virologist and the other doctors are all dead. I inject them with my virus, pop them in the sleeper, if they are too far gone for that, and the cryo pods are full, then stuff them with pills from chemistry

The idea of a truely finite station where, given enough time, literally anything could run out and be subjected to resource starvation was always really enticing to me.

That said for medical there's a BIG problem here: Even if you take the chems out of the machines and make them finite they're still stocked by chemistry, which has an effectively infinite supply to work with. Machines that generate chems out of thin air are always the be all end all of the supply chain, and while theoretically they convert power from engineering there is A LOT of power to work with and outside of sabotage a station could run on existent power for an effectively infinite period of time.

So to make this work not only would you have to completely change how sleepers and medibots work and heavily rebalance how fast cryo goes through chems, you would also have to completely rebalance how power is generated to the station to the point where if chemistry was cranking out obscene levels of chems that a drained power net could be a realistic problem.

What about wall mounted healers like in Half Life? They force you to stop while they heal you. Chemists can recharge them every now and then.

We could just put wall mounted nanomeds in every department like I suggested.

I kind of like the idea of just all-out porting Baymed. It'd be hilariously imbalanced, but so was Goofchem, and we adapted to that (mostly).

Zilenan91 wrote:We could just put wall mounted nanomeds in every department like I suggested.

You mean like I suggested.

if anything medical being made tedious/annoying fnr is dumb

Like arbritarily making basic healing chems very complex to make? :^)

Seriously though, the logic behind "port baymed/make medical more complex them clicking with a bruisepack" is:
A: Make doctors useful beyond openin the medbay door when the AI is busy/subverted/dead
B: Make combat more dangerous, when your injuries can actually maim you/require player interaction to fix, which would change the current state of the game where there is pretty much zero reason to care about your own wellbeing, and to not to run screaming at the guys with guns/swords, because 100% hp is a click or 2 away.

Of course this is super contraversial because:
A: Some people, playing a multiplayer game that (supposedly) is supposed to be filled with paranoia, believe that having to trust or rely on other players is a big no no
B: Some people also like playing ss13 like call of duty instead of a shitty sprite based RP game.

My favorite part is when bruise packs were made to stop healing everything and only the specific targeted limb because "muh complexity"
And then patches just completely negated that and became the new Bruise Pack Plus.

Consistency is fun.

lumipharon wrote:Seriously though, the logic behind "port baymed/make medical more complex them clicking with a bruisepack" is:
A: Make doctors useful beyond openin the medbay door when the AI is busy/subverted/dead
B: Make combat more dangerous, when your injuries can actually maim you/require player interaction to fix, which would change the current state of the game where there is pretty much zero reason to care about your own wellbeing, and to not to run screaming at the guys with guns/swords, because 100% hp is a click or 2 away.

Yes to both. Also, fuck goofball and his "never make anything more difficult" absolutism.

Of course this is super contraversial because:
A: Some people, playing a multiplayer game that (supposedly) is supposed to be filled with paranoia, believe that having to trust or rely on other players is a big no no

In case anyone actually thinks this, I'll just say that it makes no fucking sense. For the game to be full of paranoia, we need mechanics that force players to rely on each other and make themselves vulnerable. Medical is a great opportunity for this stuff. If you're in surgery, you can't defend yourself. In Baymed, it's even hard to defend yourself when performing surgery.

What we have instead is a set of mechanics that make everyone a crazy loner survivalist, which is boring.

Yes to both. Also, fuck goofball and his "never make anything more difficult" absolutism.

Do you honestly think that "make it more difficult just because" is a good way to go about things?

Do you even fucking PLAY medical?

>just because

lumipharon wrote: A: Make doctors useful beyond openin the medbay door when the AI is busy/subverted/dead
B: Make combat more dangerous, when your injuries can actually maim you/require player interaction to fix, which would change the current state of the game where there is pretty much zero reason to care about your own wellbeing, and to not to run screaming at the guys with guns/swords, because 100% hp is a click or 2 away.

K.

Encouraging people to run at their attacker like that is good though. It's more fun than just "oh well you got shot, you're dead".

Just double all damage sources in the game and boost player health to 300, with 150 putting you into crit.

Bam, more lethality and make people a bit harder to kill.

If you want to make medical shit artificially scarce just bomb burn steal it. That is why people target medbay with fire and bombs every round they go off.

Is it so hard to believe that the one thing Nanotansen does right is have a well stocked medbay?

Also a well stocked medbay is a double edged sword, since antags can easily heal themselves.

At a minimum, before removing these chems there should be minor healing over time so that we do not waste bruise packs on fixing 1 damage on an arm.

Oh man that is a great idea as an antag doctor, just use up all the medical supplies healing yourself then bomb chem.

I played MD on a 70 player rev round on Ministation with no Chemist.
With just one sleeper, one cryotube, a cloner, and like half the chems a normal station would have, we did a pretty alright job keeping the station... vaguely alive.
This probably shouldn't be possible.

MisterPerson wrote:Encouraging people to run at their attacker like that is good though. It's more fun than just "oh well you got shot, you're dead".

for once i have to agree with misterperson

MisterPerson wrote:Encouraging people to run at their attacker like that is good though. It's more fun than just "oh well you got shot, you're dead".

It also means there's next to no risk or danger - you can be shot to pieces and 1 styptic patch will fully heal you from crit.