/tg/Station 13

My proposal here is to remove the concept of Objectives from certain antagonists, in this case the Traitor, Changeling and Wizard.

Nuclear Operatives, Shadowlings, Cultists, Revolutionaries and Gangsters will retain objectives, essentially any antagonist where their objectives are required for game ending/completion they will retain them.

This change will instead encourage antagonists that no longer have objectives to instead simply cause chaos and confusion, or to advance the interests of the Syndicate/Hivemind/Wizard Federation in whatever capacity they desire.

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I think this change will see a net positive gain for the above listed antagonists. Since now we will have antagonists that are not binded by a arbitrary objective but instead serve a goal of causing chaos or destruction in their own manner. Meaning no antags killing their target and then waiting a hour for the shuttle to call, or for a traitor to steal a small objective and hide in the escape pod.

In addition this would remove the meta around certain items, so there's no meta issue's with people using objects like Jetpacks of hand held teleporters.

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Your thoughts?

But they're not bound by their objective anyway. Antags can and do whatever the fuck, if they want.

Except its a fact that many antagonists, mainly the above three listed, usually adhear to their objectives.

Removing the objectives would force these antagonists to preform unique actions of their own desire, and not from a list.

Lumi, I love you, dude.

But it's so not fun getting random searched over something small and hen getting perma for a hand tell you found. As a nonantag.

Fragnostic wrote:Lumi, I love you, dude.

But it's so not fun getting random searched over something small and hen getting perma for a hand tell you found. As a nonantag.

you getting perma'd for grand theft has nothing to do with antagonists objectives whatsoever.


I like objectives, they give a challenge, in fact I wish I could choose to get more objectives whenever I roll traitor.

Objectives give people useful structure. The simple fact is that if there weren't objectives to steal things like the captain's laser, 99% of the time people simply just wouldn't bother. It's not worth the effort, and isn't actually even that impressive when you have done it.

Objectives are optional. Just saying "Do whatever you want" does not work for certain personalities. Some people need a goal or direction. Simply remove/add objectives as needed for desired results. Our current system is entirely optimal right now, and I feel that we should have objectives for the crew as well.

You say they're optional, yet most antagonists will prusue them with no regard to anything else, meaning once they've finished them they will be far more defensive.

Objectives vary strangely in difficulty. Stealing a jumpsuit, for example, is either monstrously tricky (if the head involved is very protective and always in the brig) or outrageously easy (if they're never near their office and they left it in the locker). Sometimes, the concerned person doesn't even give a shit (you want a jumpsuit? Sure, why not). I'm just using 'jumpsuit' as an example: the same applies to weapons, medals, special defibrillators, all sorts of things like that. Murder can likewise be highly variable. They might be a braindead in your own department, or they might be the most active member of the validhunting assistant force, impossible to track down and well-geared if you do find them. A few objectives do have a fairly consistent difficulty: stealing the nuke's core is probably mostly the same each time, for example.

Meanwhile, people greentexting and then hiding for the rest of the round isn't much fun. Not for them, not for anyone else, especially if it was a theft or murder that nobody noticed or cared about. That's one of the reasons that 'die a glorious death' has been such a positive change. We've seen a lot of traitors willing to put themselves out there, because they know that being caught isn't a problem. They're not risking their greentext, they're creating it.

However, the risk is that people with no objectives get stuck in boring patterns. This is most obvious with murderboning. Someone that keeps killing loads of people in the exact same way isn't that fun to watch (let's suppose they're always tasing people, then sawing them to death, and just wandering down the corridor with increasingly good gear doing this). Someone who mixes things up with different methods, adding style and flair to their performance, can be hugely entertaining, but this requires skill and creativity, and imagination, something you can't rely on.

I would suggest that instead of removing objectives entirely, you try to make them all meaningful (no 'steal this object created for player theft', more 'sabotage this thing' and 'kill that person') and then implement a system encouraging people to get more objectives if they complete their current ones. In theory this is possible already, but in practice it's rare. Add a way to contact syndicate command via PDA instead of breaking into the (exposed) bridge, add an automated system for ticking off certain objectives (most notably murder ones) and adding, say, 5 tc. Traitors are encouraged not to stay in their departments once they're done, they get ideas from the game, and yet they become more active. Hopefully.

In the absence of that, sure, remove objectives for a week, let's see what happens.

I was thinking more along the lines of, alternativly, replacing objectives with suggestions.

So it might encourage you to contact the syndicate ASAP via a comms console, or sabotage all research on station.

No.

There are better ways to approach this problem, removing isn't a good option here.

Not to mention antags already ignore their objectives and go murderbone.

But many antagonists use their antagonism as a free murder card anyway. Removing objectives'll just encourage a semi-homogenous style of traitoring based around attempts at being Cuban Pete or Noslips McSwordbow.

Antags already don't have to do their objectives.

Removing the objectives will make their only goal in 99% of cases to rack up the high score of dead people (Wizard is already this, but with magic and puns)

I've always seen objectives as like "Here's an idea if you can't think of something" or a "Get to this end point by and crazy route you choose".
It certainly gives some kinda of loose direction at least.

Being a good antag is, in a way, an art form. You're required to be creative, to think outside the box (to use a tired expression). And strangely what helps creativity more than anything is an obstruction or a goal, even if its vauge. Having an objective, whether you choose to try and complete it, at least gives you structure or options.

I believe if it was just "You are the traitor, gl;hf" shit would get boring really fast and a lot more mindless violence would be had.

It provides a prompt on which you can act and expand from there. There is nothing wrong with an optional prompt.

It also provides some much needed direction to less experienced player and a tangible goal to strive for rather than "go nuts, good luck."

Cept as I stated above I can/intend to change green and red text with utterly non-meaningful directions that have no win or lose state.

So instead of 'steal the captain's gun' you might get 'secure artefacts of worth to the syndicate' or 'disrupt mining operations on the station'.

Prompts to action but they hold no win or lose state. In addition with removing the win/lose state we can include more unique directions for antagonists.

I agree with PAS and Kor.
Surplus crates and bundles should also help with this, obviously.

It's not fun or interesting to have every antagonist on the station just trying to max their KDA because there is nothing better to do.

Like Kor said, there is nothing wrong with an optional base goal for your traitoring.

Give everyone objectives.

But seriously, antags are supposed to stir up the round and make it fun. It's your chance to give sec a run for their money with nothing put adrenal implants and an ebow just to fuck with them or help RnD get stronk by deconning a Hacked AI board and emagging firing pins, or make a disposals crusher to fuck people you flush down the chutes, or plant little homemade shrapnel bombs all over maint. Kidnap people and play SAW XXIV.

I come from NoX and we griefed sooo much. The reason there were regular griefers who weren't always antags was because they were creative as fuck. Steal someone's shoes and drop glass shards when they chase you until they give up. Build a delivery chute that leads to a hidden room full of CO2 and N2O and bait people into chasing you into the chute where they fucking pass out and die. Fill a flamethrower tank full of supercooled oxygen and silently burn people with it.

And with all these nice features here, you can do much more. Get people to play Russian Roulette with a fully loaded gun. Hell, if it were possible, implant a bomb into a monkey, make it sentient and order it to bomb something via the vents. Fill a disposal chute with as many shards, rods, and sharp shit you can find and tell the AI there is a sentient monkey hiding in it and your payload will come flying out. Fill a syringe with 10 units CF3 and 5 units neurotoxin(the drink) and shoot someone with it. Better if you use 1/3 of mute toxin, CF3, and neurotoxin. Buy noslips, an esword and spray lube on every side of bridge and any entrance to bridge hallway(maint, 3 sec airlocks to brig) and just go crazy. Spare who you wish, murder whoever. Tasers have a max range, and if it's double esword then you're golden(for non traitors, fireaxe/armblade/cult sword/switchblade+galoshes).

I'd rather see the greentext be "do two of the following: (whatever)" than gone entirely.

Objectives are important in giving people new to antagonist roles direction, removing objectives is a pointless change and detracts from the theme of antagonists. "Cause chaos" is a stupid generalized objective.

The kind of people who would be comfortable with "Do whatever you want", typically already do whatever they want.

We could always try and do the miscreant system from Goon. Non-antags getting harmless objectives they can or can not do such as giving a rousing speech, or acquiring one of every stamp, or founding your own nation in arrivals. It would give people suggestions for things to do instead of slogging through their job every round until an antagonist finally does a thing, then instantly dies to the seven sec officers, and 20 assistants currently on board.

I don't think removing objectives will benefit greatly to the game - traitors already have a go on doing whatever they want without paying attention to their objectives, many people do it already. Don't want stealing an armor vest? Wanna become a back alley surgeon instead? Go ahead! You can do that already. The only thing this change might actually achieve is making people, who normally try to actually accomplish their objectives, go on a bored murderbone, because there's no goal for them anymore.

People will murderbone objectives be dammed.

Are we forgetting the round end bragging/complaints of a traitor/wizard going on a mass murder spree even though their objectives ask them to just steal a hypo spray?

This change will simply remove the concept of green or red text for antags, meaning people will judge them based on their actions and not just on their objectives.

Steelpoint wrote:Are we forgetting the round end bragging/complaints of a traitor/wizard going on a mass murder spree even though their objectives ask them to just steal a hypo spray?

well i mean at least that's more exciting than the traitor buying an emag and silently slipping the hypo into his box and going idle in a pod for an hour making the round pseudo-extended, isn't it?

I see a lot of traitors who at roundend say that they had no idea what to do in order to make the round more fun and instead just bought some guns and killed stuff. Many people seem to have a lack of ideas when they suddenly become traitors.

I think that there should be an option to give these players 5 or so fluff objectives to choose from. Obviously, this would be stuff that is impossible/difficult to check with code and the objective would only serve as inspiration. I am thinking stuff like "Build a deadly disposal ride"for atmos techs or "Create a secret slime breeding area in maint and feed them with crewmembers" for scientists.

You could go even further and give them the ability to buy special traitor bundles that are themed after their objectives to help them pull it off.

I still maintain you should be able to choose (or randomly selected, whatever) a syndicate faction to work for, and get a themed objective(s), and an altered uplink with perhaps difference prices and certain items available/not avaiable based on faction.

And if enough people choose/get put into, the same faction, they get a team, faction themed objective.

Objectives are as said optional. That and when we have stats running the ability accomplish them tells you if the antagonist is fucked or fucking royally, like ling was for ages.

What I would like to see for traitors is the option to get another objective (without admin intervention) after you completed your first one. You can either accept it for the challenge or just refuse it and things stay as they were.

I've always thought the objectives were the only constraint in your FUN. I try to work creativity around the objectives because that's more creative than "make an atmos ride" or "Run around with the revolver + lathe'd ammo".

I remember my favorite round was when I was tator tot and had to kill the Warden. Not only did I kill the warden, I played dress up and, as the warden I had just killed, Electric Chaired about 15 people [then escaped]. If you went to brig for Vandalism you got the death penalty

Maybe have a system where objectives give you progressively more TC's and you have to scan the item/dead body with your PDA before it gives you more [so you can't just spam GIMME MORE OBJECTIVES without actually doing them]. This leads to inevitable conflict and instead of Greentext it shifts to "how many objectives did you complete before you got caught/killed". For things like Gibbed bodies/Perma-Lost items [see: crematorium for both], it just messages you that the syndicate know you cannot complete the objective, considers it a partial win TC wise [but not greentext], and gives you another objective.

IE:

END OF ROUND

TRAITOR MCTOTS:
<items purchased>
Objectives Completed: 4 ; TC Earned: XX
1: Scan the Captain's Laser ✓
2: Set the PA to Maximum Then Scan The Computer ✓
3: Scan the dead body of Reed Glover, Chemist [GIBBED]
4: Scan the dead body of Mekhi Tableson, HoS ✓
5: Scan the dead body of Ian, the HoP's pet ✓
6: Scan the CE's Advanced Magboots X

Ok put it like this, on rounds where (at some point) everyone is an antag, i.e. blob + EMT + death squad + other gimmicks, you get a HUGE round end report. Most of them are only 3 lines long (who, task, success/fail). I'm sure I'm not the only one that doesnt scroll through that mess. Now imagine if ever person, taitor or non tatior had several lines, to the point where effectively every player (70+ on sybil) is given a 5-6 line report. The end of round report would become a meaningless spam of text (even more so that it already is).

If "Fun" objectives are going to be coded/given out it really wouldnt be a great idea to give them as a round end report.

Ayy so cool implement pls

ExcessiveCobblestone wrote: Objectives Completed: 4 ; TC Earned: XX
1: Scan the Captain's Laser ✓
2: Set the PA to Maximum Then Scan The Computer ✓
3: Scan the dead body of Reed Glover, Chemist [GIBBED]
4: Scan the dead body of Mekhi Tableson, HoS ✓
5: Scan the dead body of Ian, the HoP's pet ✓
6: Scan the CE's Advanced Magboots X

ExcessiveCobblestone wrote: Mekhi Tableson

GL with that cucklestuns

What if two traitors could both unlock their uplinks and then transfer TCs to one another? Using an unlocked PDA on another could transfer 1 TC at a time, and although you start with 20, some items could cost 40 or somewhere just outside the reach of 20. This could encourage teamwork or planning. And maybe an actual gimmick.

A code change is no way to change a Culture problem.