/tg/Station 13

Hardsuit for the Research Director. The RD and CMO (on Box) are the only heads without easy access to a hardsuit (EVA suits are not hardsuits), and Science is the only major department lacking a themed hardsuit.

EDIT 2: I have coded the RD hardsuit for review here: https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/12098 Sweet sprite by WJohnston!
EDIT 3: The PR is merged! It can now be found on the Metastation and Dreamstation maps. I will try to have a PR to place it on Box soon.
EDIT 4: Steelpoint beat me to a hardsuits map PR, so I requested that he add the RD hardsuit there: https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/12263

Current hardsuits by department:
Supply:
- Mining hardsuit (Brightest headlights, decent bomb resist, can be upgraded to strongest melee armor)
[melee = 30, bullet = 5, laser = 10, energy = 5, bomb = 50, bio = 100, rad = 50]
* As the department head, the HoP may take one should he desire it.

Security:
- Security hardsuit (slightly better laser resist, average melee resist, weak bullet resists)
[melee = 30, bullet = 15, laser = 30, energy = 10, bomb = 10, bio = 100, rad = 50]
* HoS personal hardsuit (Decent melee resist, slightly less pathetic bullet resist) minor upgrade of normal Sec hardsuit.
[melee = 45, bullet = 25, laser = 30, energy = 10, bomb = 25, bio = 100, rad = 50]

Engineering:
- Engineering hardsuit (High radiation resistance, built in jetpack)
[melee = 10, bullet = 5, laser = 10, energy = 5, bomb = 10, bio = 100, rad = 75]
- Atmospherics hardsuit (Fire immunity, jetpack, the only hardsuit to lack radiation protection)
[melee = 10, bullet = 5, laser = 10, energy = 5, bomb = 10, bio = 100, rad = 0]
- CE personal hardsuit (Rad immune if combined with jumpsuit, fire immune, decent melee resist, decent bomb resist, jetpack)
[melee = 40, bullet = 5, laser = 10, energy = 5, bomb = 50, bio = 100, rad = 90]

Medical:
Medical, on box, does not have access to space suits. Most alternate maps offer one for the CMO, however:
- Medical hardsuit, excluding Box (Lesser slowdown than other hardsuits)
[melee = 10, bullet = 5, laser = 10, energy = 5, bomb = 10, bio = 100, rad = 50]

Captain:
- Captain's personal spacesuit (Technically not a "hardsuit", but features decent melee resist, strong laser and bullet resist, and decent bomb resists)
[melee = 40, bullet = 50, laser = 50, energy = 25, bomb = 50, bio = 100, rad = 50]

Proposed changes:
- Add CMO's medical hardsuit to Box. (PENDING in the PR linked above)
- Remove the "Command EVA" section to maintain current space suit count.
- Add Research Director's personal hardsuit:

Designed for the FUN!! Nanotrasen expects the RD to encounter as part of his job - explosions, fire, and radiation while working in Toxins and with the E.X.P.E.R.I-MENTOR.
* Primarily a bomb suit, the suit features 100 bomb resistance. Secondarily, it has slightly higher radiation shielding (+10 above standard), and emergency firesuit resistance.
[melee = 10, bullet = 5, laser = 10, energy = 5, bomb = 100, bio = 100, rad = 60]
** Like a normal emergency firesuit, it lasts a short while in fire, but will eventually begin to fail.
*** Note that bomb armor works differently than other armor!

How bomb armor works in a nutshell
Defense against bomb damage works on a probability basis. Light explosions deal about 30 brute damage, with a chance to half that damage based on bomb armor. It also has a 50% chance of stunning the victim. Deafens people without earmuffs.
Heavy explosions deal around a base 60 brute and burn, with a bomb armor based chance to absorb 1/3 of the damage dealt, and half the shock involved with shredding clothes. (Anything with 50 or more bomb armor cannot be shredded by heavy explosions)
Total Devastation explosions simply gib the victim. Bomb armor gives a percent chance of avoiding the gib in favor of being dealt extreme (500 brute) damage, having their items and armor destroyed, and being flung away.

Thoughts?

I would support adding Hardsuits for all heads of staff in some capacity, removing the Command hardsuits from EVA would mean there would be no extra hardsuits.

Amusingly there is a HoS hardsuit in the code, but its unused as of now. I would not add it as I'm sure that would feed the meme of me buffing security in all my PR's (false).

I'm not so sure on the explosions thing though.

Sweet Jesus, add the medical hardsuit. I've been asking for ages, and just having it in the abandoned medical frigate is not enough for me.

Appreciate it, though, Steel.

>RD hardsuit is bombproof
At least we're honest about what it's gonna be used for

this sounds like a pretty good idea to me, though the med hardsuit would be much nicer than the rd one since there are always corpees in spess to get.

one design philosophy for the game that I always liked is that the station is where the action is at

as in, people should stay at the station mostly, and going out into space should be an exception.

by that philosophy, we should reduce the number of space suits on the station, not increase them. every suit added makes them a less precious commodity. (I don't want to use "heads fucking off to space instead of doing their job" as a counter-argument because that is dereliction of duty and already covered ICly and OOCly.)





so what is the design philosophy behind your idea? what are you trying to achieve by adding more hardsuits?

Ricotez wrote:one design philosophy for the game that I always liked is that the station is where the action is at

as in, people should stay at the station mostly, and going out into space should be an exception.

by that philosophy, we should reduce the number of space suits on the station, not increase them. every suit added makes them a less precious commodity. (I don't want to use "heads fucking off to space instead of doing their job" as a counter-argument because that is dereliction of duty and already covered ICly and OOCly.)





so what is the design philosophy behind your idea? what are you trying to achieve by adding more hardsuits?

To not die in the inevitable kaboom inherent with working in Science, be it deliberate or accidental. Each head hardsuit has a purpose:
- Chief Engineer: Handling plasma floods, wiring solars, preparing singuloth, killing the rogue AI, fixing bomb holes and other breaches.
- Head of Security: Hunting antags in space, especially Nuke Ops.
- Captain: Having entertaining battles in space in a desperate struggle to avoid letting Ops have the disk/cultists Saccing him/Revs killing him.
- Chief Medical Officer: Collecting dead people in space for cloning, saving people who are critted in space.
- Head of Personnel: ???
- Research Director: Blowing stuff up, accidentally blowing himself up, putting out Toxins fires, getting abused by the E.X.P.E.R.I-MENTOR and inducing crit fail in the AE gun.

By removing Command EVA, the total number of space suits remains the same, but the RD and CMO get suits that better match what they face in most rounds.

I like the idea of a hardsuit for each head of staff - but where does the HoP get theirs? From Mining?

Space becomes trivialized as space suits become more prevalent. There is already a Command area in EVA for this exact purpose. Massive thumbs down to putting any more space gear on the station. A "hardsuit" is not important for a medical or science officer - What should matter to them is the ability to go into space at all.

Seriously, no more space gear. No more ARMORED space gear for noncombatants.

Also we both know that the RD hardsuit will contribute nothing meaningful and just enable people with bombs le funny allahu ackbar meme xddd

bombsuit functions as ghetto riot suit

so why doesn't the experimental bomb hardsuit offer that too?

Buff Melee resist for RD. Also makes RD a little less squishy during revolutions.


Give the HOS hardsuit a unique ability/toggle like the NukeOP hardsuit.

(special snowflake lore goes "the HOS robusted the nukeops and salvaged a suit).
Give it two abilities; Persuit (sec hud) and Arrest (med hud).

I don't agree that we should add more spacesuits.

I asked for medical hardsuits ages ago.

They were created, and then not added for the longest time. People said that there were too many hardsuits on the station.

Then they added fuckin' SECURITY hardsuits. Eugh. They STILL DIDN'T ADD MEDICAL HARDSUITS.

After a while, they DID add medical hardsuits... to the abandoned medical frigate.

Now, we're on the cusp of the CMO getting his own personal goddamn hardsuit, and NOW people are saying AGAIN that there are too many hardsuits.

It only gets said when medical hardsuits could be added to the station. What is the problem with you people? Why does security need hardsuits more than medbay?

What is your beef with medical hardsuits?

Yep, security hardsuits should have never been added.

On a station built for around seventy people, logically there'd be seventy spacesuits available (or ones in lockers like Bay). That's not as fun, though - but certain jobs, like Engineers or Miners, need hardsuits; and heads of staff do as well. One per department isn't game-breaking, especially considering the removal of Command EVA (so the total amount of spaceworthy gear on-station remains the same).

No thanks.

This is power creep, and trivialises the danger of space even further.

Security needed space suits way more than medical did.

Science really, really does not need a space suit. If you want one so bad, go steal one.

MisterPerson wrote:Security needed space suits way more than medical did.

Because you need to arrest or kill things in space?

Medical hardsuits are for the people who are bodily dragging people out of breaches and retrieving the corpses of the cloneable dead. Security does not need THREE HARDSUITS whilst medbay has none.

THERE'S your powercreep.

AnonymousNow wrote:

MisterPerson wrote:Security needed space suits way more than medical did.

Because you need to arrest or kill things in space?

Medical hardsuits are for the people who are bodily dragging people out of breaches and retrieving the corpses of the cloneable dead. Security does not need THREE HARDSUITS whilst medbay has none.

THERE'S your powercreep.

Or you could just wear a space suit from EVA, there's 7 of the bastards for a reason. The slowdown shouldn't be a problem because nobody can move in airflow even in a hardsuit, and you don't need any armor, and they come with free bio:100 protection even when internals are off.

Outside of Engineering and Mining, Security has the third most pressing need for a hardsuit with Medical coming in a close fourth.

While its easy to say people will abandon the station, the fact is head's of staff generally never abandon the station outside of Rev or the station about to blow up by a Nuke. Hardsuits allow people to move around easier during a emergency, such as loose sing or bombings, or a blob.

Steelpoint wrote:Outside of Engineering and Mining, Security has the third most pressing need for a hardsuit with Medical coming in a close fourth.

While its easy to say people will abandon the station, the fact is head's of staff generally never abandon the station outside of Rev or the station about to blow up by a Nuke. Hardsuits allow people to move around easier during a emergency, such as loose sing or bombings, or a blob.

To everyone else:
the above quote mentions hardsuits

medical staff need spaceworthy gear more than security (available in the form of those 7 EVA suits), but sec need hardsuits more than medbay does, because the point of a hardsuit is a versatile, easy to carry piece of kit (usually well-armored). There's rarely a pressing need for medical to be gallivanting into breaches RIGHT NOW THIS INSTANT THROUGH THE SPACEWIND AND GLOOM OF NIGHT, and if there is, there's usually only time to stick themselves with a stim patch/injector/whatever, rather than run to the locker, take the kit, then go out to the site and rescue Jim McVoidLover.

RD needs a hardsuit. I don't play RD but Toxins fires, blob rampages, faulty borgs, countless shitter breaking into R&D for a power cell or a gun, or anyone wanting to jump the RD when they catch him lacking in the testing lab.

CMO needs a medical hardsuit because of a e s t h e t I c. HoS needs a dark, knight-looking hardsuit that looks different than the other sec hardsuits, which we need at least 3 of(one for the Warden and any other officers). HoP could have a stock NT hardsuit, but that looks a little more armored with a tinted visor.

CentComm officials need a clear hardsuit, I mean completely clear. You can only see the outline and a bit of the glare from the clear polymer reflecting light. Otherwise, their hardsuits are completely clear with very basic armor values, but the suit is collapsible and fits in a backpack.

What I can do is the following.

Replace the HoS Hardsuit sprite with the current Sec Hardsuit sprite, giving him the dark suit while sec officers get the normal red sprite suit.

Give the CMO a medical hardsuit, every single other alt map gives the CMO one so why not Boxstation?

Give the RD a special Research suit. It would not be space worthy but it would have high bomb and toxin resist. Would need sprites.

I would also remove the command space suits in EVA.

I can handle the coding myself, and I can bribe WJ for the mapping. The subject remains the RD hardsuit, medical hardsuit for CMO, and removing Command EVA to keep the suits the same. In effect, replacing the Command EVA suits with the RD and CMO suits, as Command EVA is basically suit storage for those two heads, anyway. I would be happy to take your Sec hardsuit sprites in my PR, should I see sufficient support to make a PR, but your suggestion is not compatible with my original post.

I was just speaking my mind.

I think removing the command EVA suits to just give the RD and CMO a hardsuit would be acceptable, since its not proliferating more suits onto the station.

My/Your HoS hardsuit suggestion would be more controversial due to it adding one more suit to the station. However the sprites for it are already in the game, again just swap the sec hardsuit sprites to make it the new HoS sprite and give the sec hardsuit sprites the old red sprites.

tl;dr, why not go to eva and get a suit then?

Steelpoint wrote:
Give the RD a special Research suit. It would not be space worthy but it would have high bomb and toxin resist. Would need sprites.

.

So, uh, a worse bombsuit? Bombsuits are bombresist 100 and completely crap anyway, so w/e.

I am editing the OP for this PR: https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/11939
This is giving the CMO the medical hardsuit found on most alternate maps. Discussion of that subject alone should be directed to that PR.
Requested feedback is now surrounding the RD hardsuit, and Command EVA removal.

A hardsuit for the RD will be harder to push I think.

At minimum simply making it a reinforced Hazard suit (Think Half Life) that is essentially a resprited Bomb/Bio suit combined would work well.

Steelpoint wrote:Replace the HoS Hardsuit sprite with the current Sec Hardsuit sprite, giving him the dark suit while sec officers get the normal red sprite suit.

No

It's the old sprite and I wish it was the standard again

Scones wrote:

Steelpoint wrote:Replace the HoS Hardsuit sprite with the current Sec Hardsuit sprite, giving him the dark suit while sec officers get the normal red sprite suit.

No

It's the old sprite and I wish it was the standard again

Make sure we're on the same page.

This Sprite

Is the old Sec Hardsuit sprite.

Right now its the HoS's hardsuit sprite, which is currently not used on the map.

This Sprite

Is the current Sec Hardsuit sprite

--

My proposal is to swap the sprites around, give the darker one as the HoS sprite and the current HoS (old) sprite as the Sec Officer Hardsuit

Just get rid of the shit Dannno sprite and bring back the old one minus the stripe, HoS can have the stripe

Both sprites look nice.

Steelpoint wrote:A hardsuit for the RD will be harder to push I think.

At minimum simply making it a reinforced Hazard suit (Think Half Life) that is essentially a resprited Bomb/Bio suit combined would work well.

I realize this. A spaceworhty bombsuit is my goal here, though. Have you ever gone out to the testing range to learn how to do canister bombs properly, or to scan the bomb you sent out to see why it failed to explode (only to realize you miscalculated the timer and it exploded in your face?).

I know this is hard to push, which is why I made a forum thread to know if I am wasting my time or not. I cannot go outside to fiddle with bombs in the supplied bomb suits, and there are no space suits that provide full bomb protection, so doing dangerous and stupid things as RD is limited by this. I WANT to go out to the testing range and blow myself up! It is part of the fun in playing Science! Try learning Toxins for a while, without a guide. Set yourself, and the whole room on fire. Blow yourself up, get a space suit, go out to the testing range, and gib yourself playing with single tank maxcaps!

There is an antagonistic use for them as well, in better surviving your own blasts should you be a suicide bomber.

It is a hard sell, from the feedback so far, that is obvious. I do not truly expect the community to support me here, and the only thing that is probably going to come of this is the CMO getting a hardsuit, leaving the RD out in the cold. I am willing to see what people think, though. If feedback (from more people) continues in this trend, I will give up on the idea - My Charisma stat is quite low, so if the idea itself does not wow people, I do not have the ability to convince them otherwise.

All head hardsuits should be in EVA. And if even the CMO gets one, then all should get one.

What's wrong with trial by fire/error? Isn't that how Science is intended to be?

Gun Hog wrote:single tank maxcaps

>singletank bombs
>ever approaching the 5/10/20 maxcap

Please teach me, master. There must be something I'm doing wrong. I can only get them to gib people, sometimes armored people.

RD needs a space suit of some kind to retrieve bombs from test range, they ARE in charge of the people who blow up the range.

Scones wrote:What's wrong with trial by fire/error? Isn't that how Science is intended to be?

Of course! That is why I want a space bomb suit, so I can screw up myself and my department without it being completely round-ending. You blow yourself up? Get healed/cloned, geared up, and survive to die once more! Did you forget to close the burn mix canister before you filled it with burning plasma, and now Toxins and the hallway are ruined? Clean up, repair, and move on.

It is not very fun if you only get one shot.

EDIT: I do not know how to make a singletank maxcap, but people claim they exist. One day, I will know the truth first hand.

Giving science a hardsuit is really dumb

Like, they already do everything better than other departments- reliable EVA gear is preeeeeeetty much the only thing that science lacks, and honestly half the time scientists end up with the derelict suits, raiding EVA, or a mining hardsuit.

This might've made more sense back when we had telesci- we could've made, like, a space-explorer job or a test dummy or something, but at the moment there's no real need for science to have a hardsuit

Make space worthy chems you h u g b o x medfags

Stickymayhem wrote:Make space worthy chems you h u g b o x medfags

also this if you really wanna spacewalk that badly gun hog just go lift a beaker of cryo mix from medical. sipping from that will let you short term spacewalk no problem

Metastation has a single Eva suit at the bomb testing launcher, as well as a nearby airlock for scientists to go check on the testing range. Just do that instead of adding a a bomb proof hardsuit. Being blown up by your own bomb is half the fun of scientist.

I remember this being suggested before, and I've always loved the idea. The argument that this would "trivialize space" or shit makes no sense. If the proposed change goes through and Command EVA is removed, one could argue that there are actually fewer suits available to the rest of the crew since it's pretty easy to break into. As for the suits...


CE: This is good. Leave as is.
CMO: Should be lightweight. Medical doesn't have a lot of occupational hazards, but you need to be able to move fast.
RD: Explosion and burn protection, given the death machine that is Toxins
HoS: Similar to the sec hardsuit, but with slightly better protection. The argument that this "buffs sec" is pretty flawed. How many sec officers do you see running around in hardsuits? You need to be fast as security, slowdown can fuck you hard.

CMO: "Should be lightweight. Medical doesn't have a lot of occupational hazards, but you need to be able to move fast."
https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/11939 That is exactly what the Medical Hardsuit is. A standard hardsuit with 1 slowdown instead of 2.

RD: "Explosion and burn protection, given the death machine that is Toxins" That is my aim
HoS: "Similar to the sec hardsuit, but with slightly better protection. The argument that this "buffs sec" is pretty flawed. How many sec officers do you see running around in hardsuits? You need to be fast as security, slowdown can fuck you hard."
Already exists in the code! I believe some maps have it as well.

Science staff dying horribly to failed experiments is just how it should be, IMO

Scones wrote:Science staff dying horribly to failed experiments is just how it should be, IMO

Agreed.
Rule 3, "more lethality", science being crazy dangerous and crazy powerful - sometimes, you just explode. If there was no massive fuckups, the Memorable Quotes thread would be so lonely.

Scones wrote:Science staff dying horribly to failed experiments is just how it should be, IMO

There will be one hardsuit, and only the RD will have it. People will still blow up toxins and get eaten by slimes, don't you worry. This affects 2 (3 if you want to count the HoS) people on the entire station. A lot of the people against this are grossly exaggerating the impact. That is, assuming they even choose to use it, with the slowdown and other chest items that may be more appealing (i.e. reactive teleport armor).

Not-Dorsidarf wrote:

Scones wrote:Science staff dying horribly to failed experiments is just how it should be, IMO

Agreed.
Rule 3, "more lethality", science being crazy dangerous and crazy powerful - sometimes, you just explode. If there was no massive fuckups, the Memorable Quotes thread would be so lonely.

It seems you two have the idea that I am trying to make Science less dangerous. In a way I am, but not in the way you seem to be implying. I want to encourage and enable someone to go out to the testing range and try out more dangerous bombs. You cannot go to space in a bomb suit, and the space suits the RD can access lack bomb protection. Result: No one ever tries. The RD should be the first to help out with bombs and *accidental* fires, or play around with the E.X.P.E.R.I-MENTOR a little more.

Remember how bomb protection works: Reduced damage and prevents item shredding from light and heavy explosion damage, and prevents gibbing in devastation explosions. I am not of the belief that this would be overpowered or stop Science people having memorable moments. If the RD feels a bit safer, maybe he will do more dangerous and stupid things? I know that the first thing I want to do is play around with canister bombs on the test range. Not a smart thing without proper protection, you know? I have tried it before on Metastation, where a normal suit is provided. All bombs were duds.

the science power creep is real and that's all i have to say on the matter

whodaloo wrote:the science power creep is real and that's all i have to say on the matter

ONE hardsuit that will be replacing the spacesuit the RD already has access to, on top of the fact that bomb suits are already freely available to all scientists. You people make my head hurt sometimes.

There's a big difference between a suit on the other side of the station, and a suit in your office.

That said, I do think the CMO should get the medical hardsuit, to like, you know, do medical things when there's no air (which is often).