/tg/Station 13

Your byond account: Adminbane
Your character name: Security Cyborg-110
Their character name: Standard Cyborg-15
Their byond account(optional, but useful if you can provide it): No idea
Server and time: Bagil, ~11:40PM PST
Logs and/or screenshots:
Description of what happened: Not too much to say, there was a massive clusterfuck because of two player controlled magicarp and me as a xeno queen. They found me transformed me into various things, and I kept attacking them during, because I don't like being changed from a xenos queen into a monkey into a borg into a monkey etc. There was another carp as well, and due to a missfire me and him were borgs at the same time, I was Security Cyborg-110, he was Standard Cyborg-15. I attack the carps, and he beats me to near-death (unable to activate modules, static health indicator etc.).
Why they should be banned: I think it should be obvious. Killing another borg for trying to kill harmful creatures is a no-go. I understand I was attacking him when he was a carp, but once he became a borg he lost all right to randomly attack a fellow borg.

Asimov doesn't prevent killing other cyborgs. You were trying to kill him before he became a cyborg, so he retaliated when he had the power to do so.

edit: forgot rule 2, deleted

Scott wrote:Asimov doesn't prevent killing other cyborgs. You were trying to kill him before he became a cyborg, so he retaliated when he had the power to do so.

I tried to kill a harmful creature while I was a cyborg. He killed me for trying to kill a harmful creature. That is, in my belief, fnr.

I was the carp that got killed.

The entire situation was very confusing. In the other borgs defense, you did attack all the time even when you were no longer a xeno queen. We, the magicarps, went around and changed hostile NPC carps and xenos into harmless animals. Not exactly what I would call harmful to humans but I can understand you killing me as you were a xeno brain and none of your laws prevented you from killing us. There was also a good chance you didn't actually know that we were helping the crew either.

However, nobody else was human either at this point. Maybe the other borg assumed you would go and kill everyone else too? Atleast that's what I was convinced would be happening at the time.

I did see you try to talk to the other borg though, but I am not sure if that was after your modules broke or before.

as mentioned above, technically asimov doesn't stop borgs from killing other borgs. The only reason that might be an issue is rule 1 and the general feeling that roundstart or mid-round robo borgs really shouldn't be killing each other anyway.

ckey was NekoDaKat I'll chase them up some time but honestly if there's magicarps fucking around as a mitigating factor I'm not inclined to pursue this more.

imblyings wrote:as mentioned above, technically asimov doesn't stop borgs from killing other borgs. The only reason that might be an issue is rule 1 and the general feeling that roundstart or mid-round robo borgs really shouldn't be killing each other anyway.

ckey was NekoDaKat I'll chase them up some time but honestly if there's magicarps fucking around as a mitigating factor I'm not inclined to pursue this more.

So then humans can slaughter other random humans as soon as a bolt of transformation shows?

Not-Dorsidarf wrote:

imblyings wrote:as mentioned above, technically asimov doesn't stop borgs from killing other borgs. The only reason that might be an issue is rule 1 and the general feeling that roundstart or mid-round robo borgs really shouldn't be killing each other anyway.

ckey was NekoDaKat I'll chase them up some time but honestly if there's magicarps fucking around as a mitigating factor I'm not inclined to pursue this more.

So then humans can slaughter other random humans as soon as a bolt of transformation shows?

Just because X may be allowable, does not mean you can do Y.

firecage wrote:

Not-Dorsidarf wrote:

imblyings wrote:as mentioned above, technically asimov doesn't stop borgs from killing other borgs. The only reason that might be an issue is rule 1 and the general feeling that roundstart or mid-round robo borgs really shouldn't be killing each other anyway.

ckey was NekoDaKat I'll chase them up some time but honestly if there's magicarps fucking around as a mitigating factor I'm not inclined to pursue this more.

So then humans can slaughter other random humans as soon as a bolt of transformation shows?

Just because X may be allowable, does not mean you can do Y.

I'm making the comparison because it makes no sense whatsoever for the presence of an NPC antag to make a nonantag allowed to murder another nonantag.

I should have explained better, when there's magicarps turning players into x y z mobs and causing fights to break out, i.e. fucking around, and fights break out between borgs that apparently carried on from fights before they were borgs, I take that to be a mitigating factor to what would have otherwise been a standard dayban.

You could equally argue the borg was breaking Law 1 & 3 by not allowing bane to kill harmful creatures BEFORE killing him, as he threatened both humans and himself by doing so.

While you CAN kill borgs as asimov, you shouldn't be doing so when asimov prioritizes stopping harm and being the crew's Silicon Maid.

Everyone knows you lose your antag status once you get changed back to something that's non-antagonistic. I'd be equally upset if I got deconverted as Rev then killed by a Sec solely because of my previous actions.

A hectic round, with the presence of spess magic or not, should not give me an excuse to kill someone who I clearly know isn't antagonistic.

Player controlled mobs are not inherently harmful.

fair enough.

The tricky part is getting them to reply to this thread.

3. A robot must protect its own existence as long as such protection does not conflict with the First or Second Law.

You attacked him before he was a borg, so he had every reason to presume you were a threat to his existence.

Bringing up he potentially broke law one by killing something harmful and preventing it to take out other harmful things is just being mad at a player for making a choice you don't like.

And seriously this should just be up to the player to decide in extreme clusterfuck situations.

CPTANT wrote:3. A robot must protect its own existence as long as such protection does not conflict with the First or Second Law.

You attacked him before he was a borg, so he had every reason to presume you were a threat to his existence.

Bringing up he potentially broke law one by killing something harmful and preventing it to take out other harmful things is just being mad at a player for making a choice you don't like.

And seriously this should just be up to the player to decide in extreme clusterfuck situations.

"Law 4 gangsters are harmful, I just watched that gangster be deconverted, now I arrest him for being harmful"

Not-Dorsidarf wrote:"Law 4 gangsters are harmful, I just watched that gangster be deconverted, now I arrest him for being harmful"

That example is not fitting because the xenoqueen borg did not stop killing when turned borg and nobody at the scene was human anyway, leaving them perfectly able to keep killing.

Tokiko2 wrote: However, nobody else was human either at this point. Maybe the other borg assumed you would go and kill everyone else too? Atleast that's what I was convinced would be happening at the time.

I was under the assumption that turning humans non human was considered harming them, as now the AI may harm them. Similar to how an AI will stop you from uploading Onehuman due to law 1.

So basically, the borg was killing something that had harmed almost every human on station already, and would likely harm more if new crewmembers joined. I see no issue with their behavior.

palpatine213 wrote:

Tokiko2 wrote: However, nobody else was human either at this point. Maybe the other borg assumed you would go and kill everyone else too? Atleast that's what I was convinced would be happening at the time.

I was under the assumption that turning humans non human was considered harming them, as now the AI may harm them. Similar to how an AI will stop you from uploading Onehuman due to law 1.

So basically, the borg was killing something that had harmed almost every human on station already, and would likely harm more if new crewmembers joined. I see no issue with their behavior.

Is consented bolt of changing considered harm? Seems odd because I don't see borgs arresting roboticists for consented borging which seems pretty similar. Or consented injection of slime toxin, or hulking etc.

You do bring up a good point however: Some of the xeno larvas and xenos that have been turned into other beings may have been humans for a split second and those probably did not want to be changed.

Generally policy consensus is that consenting to be harmed is not actually harmful in the asimovian sense.

So people can volunteer to be genetic lab rats, get their brains ripped out for borging.
And its also why you don't have to give two shits about that greyshirt threatening to beat themselves if they're not let out or perma, or if some dumb cunt hacks open bolted door and runs into a room full of plasma.

Malk's got it right there, tangentially on the grounds of how silicons don't have to listen to suicide threats. So I guess borging and the likes are more... assisted suicide.

Sorry, busy with college here.
Once he turned into a borg I no longer tried to harm him. So it wasn't self defense. I solely attacked mobs that were not humans or borgs.

The last time the ckey in question played was over a week ago, a dayban will most likely never be noticed and a silicon jobban seems unwarranted given their lack of history, and will most likely be completely unnoticed by them. I'll add a note, something about attacking another borg rashly after magicarp shenanigans and that's pretty much all I can see happening ITT.