Speed Discussion/Poll

danno · Post by **danno** » Sun May 18, 2014 11:56 pm #6829

because it's gotta be talked about for real

Personally, I prefer the slower speed. It's not unreasonably slow. It makes combat feel less yakkety and more strategy. It really is not bad at all.
I understand that people like to go at super speeds, but let's be reasonable and consider the actual gameplay. Something that makes it easier for you to win isn't necessarily better.

iamgoofball · Post by **iamgoofball** » Mon May 19, 2014 12:27 am #6835

i feel like my game is lagging with new speed

Jeb · Post by **Jeb** » Mon May 19, 2014 12:41 am #6837

Honestly, after playing Sybil primarily, and jumping to Artyom when Sybil crashes, it just feels..wrong.

Like, its "too" fast.

Psyentific · Post by **Psyentific** » Mon May 19, 2014 12:51 am #6840

Coming off Bay-derived servers, I both missed and dreaded the speed. It's too fast, yeah. It lets me sanic around and sax, lets me really run away from people, yeah. But I feel like nanocode would benefit from a slower speed. It makes yelling "Wait!" easier and it makes interaction less abrupt. It makes it harder to vibrate past taser shots and it makes the station feel a lot bigger when you can't sanic from Arrivals to Engineering in a short twenty seconds.

miggles · Post by **miggles** » Mon May 19, 2014 1:53 am #6851

i hate the slow speed
at first i thought i enjoyed it but when we went back to fast speed its so much better
going slow is a fucking pain. /tg/ speed IS too slow. it takes longer to get places. it's annoying. fast speed is so refreshing and comfortable.

Helios127 · Post by **Helios127** » Mon May 19, 2014 2:06 am #6857

I just want you all to know if you are a coder and voted for slower speed:

You will need to balancce alot of BS.

Lovecraft · Post by **Lovecraft** » Mon May 19, 2014 2:14 am #6859

Slow is the way to go.

Post by **lumipharon** » Mon May 19, 2014 2:17 am #6861

Would just like to say again, FUCK not being able to get a midpoint speed, having to choose between sanic fast and snail slow is shit. Having said that, as a primarily sec player, I prefer the slower speed, since people can't sanic away from me quite so fast. Getting places is a fucking pain though, and wearing a hardsuit/being hungry is so fucking bullshit at /tg/ speeds. Jesus fuck, we need to do a lot of balance shit to make slow speed properly playable.

miggles · Post by **miggles** » Mon May 19, 2014 2:41 am #6869

i play sec a lot too and i prefer faster speeds

Helios127 · Post by **Helios127** » Mon May 19, 2014 3:11 am #6875

Personally, I hate having to be twice as shitcurity to players.

The fast speed makes for some very exciting chases too

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Mon May 19, 2014 3:18 am #6880

Why can't we have something in the middle, again?

Spoiler:

It's a problem. Sure you can get 'used' to the slow speed, but it's too slow and you'll have to balance a lot of shit around it that ultimately detracts and makes the game more tedious. A MIDDLE GROUND will feel less of an impact and I -ASSURE YOU- /tg/ code will use it too but HG's solution was a temporary solution to stun-centric combat and I REALLY hope someone takes the time to test movement delay and get the shit working proper so EVERYONE can be happy.

Psyentific · Post by **Psyentific** » Mon May 19, 2014 3:43 am #6882

What if some intrepid coder simply rewrites movespeed altogether? How hard could it be, right?

danno · Post by **danno** » Mon May 19, 2014 4:04 am #6888

go for it

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Mon May 19, 2014 4:12 am #6890

Psyentific wrote:How hard could it be, right?

Psyentific · Post by **Psyentific** » Mon May 19, 2014 4:26 am #6892

paprika wrote:
Psyentific wrote:How hard could it be, right?

I mean, it's not like it's a cobbled-together barely-documented atmospherics simulator made entirely by self-taught amateurs, half of whom are nowhere to be found, scripted in an obscure, barely-maintained late-nineties era language with very few of the features standard in most modern programming languages.

C'mon, what possibly could go wrong?

miggles · Post by **miggles** » Mon May 19, 2014 5:59 am #6910

like paprika said, the matter really boils down to who is going to make everything work
because it's a lot of work
not everyone is going to be happy with one option or the other, and this is such a large issue that it really has to have a middle ground
getting that middle ground is not easy
so we shouldn't change anything :^)

Incomptinence · Post by **Incomptinence** » Mon May 19, 2014 8:31 am #6946

Higher speed to go with larger maps just makes sense to me.

AseaHeru · Post by **AseaHeru** » Mon May 19, 2014 12:40 pm #6995

I like slow speed, but think that some form of faster transport (FASTER TRANSIT TUBES GOD DANG IT) should be added to get people about certan areas faster.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Mon May 19, 2014 12:42 pm #6998

Some airports have these travellators, so you don't have to walk the distance or to move faster. That could be an interesting addition? Though it would take up a lot of space.

AseaHeru · Post by **AseaHeru** » Mon May 19, 2014 2:46 pm #7029

That and it means adding a whole new thing.
Where as transit tubes exist, they just go slow and have to remain in sight the whole time...

I wonder if someone could code "underground" transit tubes, running under the floor times and above the plating, like disposials.

Remie Richards · Mon May 19, 2014 3:27 pm

paprika wrote:
Spoiler:
BECAUSE BYOND MOVEMENT SPEED CODE IS LITERALLY THE BIGGEST FUCKING MOUNTAIN OF BULLSHIT YOU WILL EVER ENCOUNTER. TRYING TO DECYPHER THAT SPAGHETTI CODE GARBAGE WILL LEAD TO TEARS. HE WHO FINDS A MIDDLE GROUND OF MOVE SPEED BETWEEN /TG/ AND NT SPEEDS WILL BE CROWNED CHAMPION CODER AND BE FOREVER THE SAVIOR OF OUR BIGGEST CODE DILEMMA YET.

Amazingly, in this case, it isn't Byond's fault.

The fault is the Move system we used, Default byond speeds are way above our "Sanic" levels (They're designed for moving 8 or 16 pixels a second, we move 32 because it's tile based gameplay is easier to work with), which is why there is a delay each time you take a step, the move code is very similair to 80% of other Byond games, in that it just keeps track of the delay each step.

The way the values were changed which produced this "Slow or Fast, no middle ground" is because that's (IIRC) one variable being changed, when there are a couple in the code that you could theoretically tweak.

These are the places you could alter it:

Code: Select all

		move_delay = world.time//set move delay

		switch(mob.m_intent)
			if("run")
				if(mob.drowsyness > 0)
					move_delay += 6 
				move_delay += config.run_speed //These are what's normally changed, Could set the code to halve the values
			if("walk")
				move_delay += config.walk_speed 
		move_delay += mob.movement_delay() //You could alter human movement_delay() to give lower values to move_delay

		if(config.Tickcomp)
			move_delay -= 1.3 //Could chose to increase this number too
			var/tickcomp = (1 / (world.tick_lag)) * 1.3 //However I believe these two numbers are supposed to match
			move_delay = move_delay + tickcomp

It just means altering more numbers.

Bluespace · Post by **Bluespace** » Mon May 19, 2014 3:58 pm #7048

Sprint Boots.
10 pairs start in engineering.
Able to be made by science.
Enables you to move fast using anti-gravity technology.
When gravity is off, you slip around like there's lube everywhere.
???????????

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Mon May 19, 2014 4:02 pm #7049

That would result in everyone and their dog breaking into Engineering at round start, and destroy any remaining vestiges of Engineering competency.

Sprint Boots are a bad idea, even as a antag item.

Stickymayhem · Post by **Stickymayhem** » Mon May 19, 2014 4:41 pm #7056

I like it slow. I'm sick of having to stun first and ask questions next as a security officer. The slower speed allows everyone to interact more easily. Chasing people just to chat was absolutely impossible where now it's just difficult.

I think sanic speeds are just ridiculous. The nerf was needed and did far more good than bad. It made the station feel much bigger, made security more able to catch people speeding like nightmares from taser shots and reduced the effectiveness of RIG suits so that they are actually a burden to offset the huge benefits they provide, among other things.

Helios127 · Post by **Helios127** » Mon May 19, 2014 6:22 pm #7074

Steelpoint wrote: Sprint Boots are a bad idea, even as a antag item.

No-Slip Syndie Shoes.

Right. Rather then bitch and moan about how I am in the minority here, I will list all the things that need to be changed if you are going to nerf the movespeed.

1. nonhuman mobs will move faster, including Aliens and hostile NPCs.
2. Mechs will now move faster/as fast as people.
3. FOR THE LOVE OF GOD IF YOU NERF THE MOVESPEED PLEASE PLEASE ALSO NERF THE PENALTY ONE GETS WHEN HUNGRY/IN A HARDSUIT
4. Nerf the mime wall cooldown - On Sibyl, the mimes forcewall is a force to be reckoned with, able to stop even the most able security dead in their tracks. Normally it is unweildy to deploy as you need to take a pause from your chase to lay it down, but with slower movespeed thats really not an issue.
5. Magic Missiles. Oldman robustin covered this in anouther thread, and with normal movement speed you can dodge them by splitting a corner real fast (and I think you can even normally outrun them a little bit). With Nerfed Movespeed, this is the wizards most powerfull spell. Cutting its stun in half is barely redeemable when a wizard can spam them - or worse, stun you and EI NATH quite easily

I think thats everything. Personally, I *really* hate the nerfed movespeed which is why I play on Atoym. Nor am I a fan of Sec having to stun people twice as much to take people in. If you ask me, things are fine as-is, but I already put my vote in so theres that.

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Mon May 19, 2014 10:04 pm #7138

Most people hate the new move speed because nothing else was balanced to take it into account because HG got killed once by a sanic traitor or something and I'm pretty sure it's the largest case of 'I ded, pls nerf' I've ever seen, if this was an actual issue he took the time to address and not a hasty blatant nerf to run speed we probably wouldn't have had our legs cut off at the knee on sybil and basil.

@RR: A decent amount of progress! Why don't you solve our problem instead of being startoad and saying "Oh this is easily changed just do this" and then not do it because you clearly have it understood more than the fucking coderbus.

Psyentific · Post by **Psyentific** » Tue May 20, 2014 1:49 am #7167

paprika wrote:Most people hate the new move speed because nothing else was balanced to take it into account because HG got killed once by a sanic traitor or something and I'm pretty sure it's the largest case of 'I ded, pls nerf' I've ever seen, if this was an actual issue he took the time to address and not a hasty blatant nerf to run speed we probably wouldn't have had our legs cut off at the knee on sybil and basil.

^This, pretty much. You can't just change something so huge, so important, so all-encompassing as movement speed and not involve the playerbase.

Helios127 · Post by **Helios127** » Tue May 20, 2014 2:34 am #7184

paprika wrote:Most people hate the new move speed because nothing else was balanced to take it into account because HG got killed once by a sanic traitor or something and I'm pretty sure it's the largest case of 'I ded, pls nerf' I've ever seen, if this was an actual issue he took the time to address and not a hasty blatant nerf to run speed we probably wouldn't have had our legs cut off at the knee on sybil and basil.

@RR: A decent amount of progress! Why don't you solve our problem instead of being startoad and saying "Oh this is easily changed just do this" and then not do it because you clearly have it understood more than the fucking coderbus.

Geez, I really hope you are making that up because otherwise, thats just awful.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Tue May 20, 2014 4:49 am #7219

I think the biggest case of "I'm dead pls nerf" was when someone tried to remove the pAI's radio function because they were caught out by a pAI when they killed the holder and got swamped by Sec.

While I like the current slower speed, I do agree that everything else needs to be brought in line. Blob Spores and Zombies run faster than players do making it impossible to run away from them for example.

Neerti · Post by **Neerti** » Tue May 20, 2014 7:07 am #7260

Actually the story of pAI was when they were a pAI and managed to report their master's killer.

Yeah.

Psyentific · Post by **Psyentific** » Tue May 20, 2014 7:14 am #7262

Didn't Malkevin put in gun-proof crates because a guncargo QM dunked him for trying to fuck with the AI's laws?

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Tue May 20, 2014 7:40 am #7272

Neerti wrote:Actually the story of pAI was when they were a pAI and managed to report their master's killer.

Yeah.

I literally have no problem with pAIs having radios since it's the -ONLY- counter against parapen c4 besides hardsuits and bio suits I'm pretty sure. Even then, it doesn't even save you from it, it just makes sure whoever did it doesn't get off scot free.

WeeYakk · Post by **WeeYakk** » Tue May 20, 2014 7:46 am #7278

When Artyom first went up I thought I was too sanic for a while but now I'm used to being sanic again. As long as non-human mobs get updated to also be slower and we NEVER EVER go to HG stuns I'd be okay with it.

Voted abstain.

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Tue May 20, 2014 7:52 am #7281

Will anyone miss shoes speeding barefoot up? Running with shoes on will be as fast as barefoot running if we move to snail since that's all HG's thing did anyway.

I feel like the only one who actually uses stealing shoes as a tactic when I play sec.

AseaHeru · Post by **AseaHeru** » Tue May 20, 2014 12:18 pm #7363

Yes, as I use that too.
Not all the time, but still.

Remie Richards · Tue May 20, 2014 1:34 pm

paprika wrote: @RR: A decent amount of progress! Why don't you solve our problem instead of being startoad and saying "Oh this is easily changed just do this" and then not do it because you clearly have it understood more than the fucking coderbus.

*Late response because internet issues last night*

I have 2 Big(ish) features of my own to work on, I have My Changeing changes ontop of that, and I have Pete's keepers on top of that!
Plus you know, Life problems.

Which is why I shared what I know, so someone else CAN work on it, because I can't.

Apsis · Post by **Apsis** » Tue May 20, 2014 5:35 pm #7450

I like fast and slow speeds because of the map sizes. I rather have fast speed on Artyom though - I haven't seen anyone have a problem with it there. Also I'm gonna have a hard time trusting this poll.

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Tue May 20, 2014 10:39 pm #7516

Remie Richards wrote:
paprika wrote: @RR: A decent amount of progress! Why don't you solve our problem instead of being startoad and saying "Oh this is easily changed just do this" and then not do it because you clearly have it understood more than the fucking coderbus.
*Late response because internet issues last night*

I have 2 Big(ish) features of my own to work on, I have My Changeing changes ontop of that, and I have Pete's keepers on top of that!
Plus you know, Life problems.

Which is why I shared what I know, so someone else CAN work on it, because I can't.

Well put this on queue after all that shit because it's going to take a long time before I look at move code again.

Remie Richards · Wed May 21, 2014 7:12 am

paprika wrote:
Remie Richards wrote:
paprika wrote: @RR: A decent amount of progress! Why don't you solve our problem instead of being startoad and saying "Oh this is easily changed just do this" and then not do it because you clearly have it understood more than the fucking coderbus.
*Late response because internet issues last night*

I have 2 Big(ish) features of my own to work on, I have My Changeing changes ontop of that, and I have Pete's keepers on top of that!
Plus you know, Life problems.

Which is why I shared what I know, so someone else CAN work on it, because I can't.
Well put this on queue after all that shit because it's going to take a long time before I look at move code again.

I'm not say I won't do it, I'm just saying don't have a go at me when I physically can't at present.

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Wed May 21, 2014 7:20 am #7711

Well if I trust anyone to do it, it's you; this needs to be addressed eventually because every poll/argument ends in 'a middleground would be better for everyone'.

Cipher3 · Post by **Cipher3** » Wed May 21, 2014 9:57 pm #7866

I can probably handle either, so until I see a major flaw in one, I'm an abstainer.

Higgin · Post by **Higgin** » Tue May 27, 2014 3:30 am #9279

I can sanic or I can not sanic. Either or.

danno · Post by **danno** » Tue May 27, 2014 5:24 am #9298

Aaaaaaaaaaand again, people show themselves to be pretty damn split. Daaaaamn.
We really need someone to make a midway point.

Psyentific · Post by **Psyentific** » Tue May 27, 2014 5:36 am #9301

Thanks for the stunning revelation Cap'n Obvious. Got any more wisdom to share?

420goslingboy69 · Thu May 29, 2014 8:50 pm

Don't fucking touch the speed. Seriously you fuckers

AseaHeru · Post by **AseaHeru** » Fri May 30, 2014 12:16 pm #9874

Where? On /TG/ or on NT?

Irregular Eng.Taylor · Fri May 30, 2014 12:30 pm

Bluespace wrote:Sprint Boots.
10 pairs start in engineering.
Able to be made by science.
Enables you to move fast using anti-gravity technology.
When gravity is off, you slip around like there's lube everywhere.
???????????

Jetpacks usable indoors to make you go at jetpack speed.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Fri May 30, 2014 12:32 pm #9882

You can already use a jetpack indoors if the gravity is offline.

Irregular Eng.Taylor · Fri May 30, 2014 12:33 pm

Steelpoint wrote:You can already use a jetpack indoors if the gravity is offline.

And what about making them usable when gravity's still online?

miggles · Post by **miggles** » Fri May 30, 2014 12:45 pm #9889

AseaHeru wrote:Where? On /TG/ or on NT?

do you even know where you are

What speed do you prefer?