Being a Jerk & Admin Protection

[Malkevin]

Because the other thread is clogged up with mouth breathers that can't think beyond 'hair' I'm starting a proper policy discussion with a clean slate, rather than the 'Policy for Policy's Policy' argument the other thread is...

The topic I wish to discuss is thus:
Being a jerk, to an extent, is fine and an IC issue as it's in the accepted spirit of the game.
BUT going out of your way to be a jerk to someone, no matter what (and I do mean going out of your way - being the HoP and telling the clown to go fuck a cactus when they ask for all access isn't a case of the HoP going out of their way) forfeits your admin protection when they take revenge on you, up to and including them killing you.
If anyone adminhelps after receiving a beat down for a being a jerk they should be told to either man the fuck up or stop being a jerk, if they continue crying they should get a short 15 minute ban so they can cool off and dry their tears

The clown and mime are not exempt from this.
Security that are doing their jobs properly are not being jerks, no you can't bomb the brig because security took your toolbelt and gloves because they caught you breaking into the captain's quarters to smoke his cigar - I really shouldn't have to preempt this thread with this point but unfortunately I know I will.

There is not and will not be any form of line in the sand because I know you shitburgers will toe it, the only requirements of this policy are that you were being a jerk to someone you've had no prior interaction with in the round.
[Be a jerk to someone > They have a choice to beat you up or not] - Simple as that.


Points of discussion:
-We may or may not allow you to space their body afterwards
-We may or may not allow you to hide their body on station, somewhere out of the way
-We may or may not require you to make sure they can revived, i.e. either requiring you to atleast dump them out in the hall and call for a medic to pick up the corpse, or actually require you hand deliver them to medbay. (I personally think this is retarded, but I'm just putting it out there)
-What happens if the victim escalates to a fist fight and loses it?
--Do they get told man up and be more robust, or does the jerk get a stern telling off?
--Is the jerk allowed/disallowed/required to do the above points, re:jerk's body, for the victim's body if the victim lost?


Reasons for:
-IC jerks are part of SS13's history and culture
-Getting into fights over petty shit is in turn, part of SS13's history and culture
-IC conflict is what makes the game interesting and stops the rounds being stale repeats of the same day over and over again.
-IC issues have their own enforcement system, that being station security - if you fight someone over something petty you should probably expect both of you to get thrown in the slammer and told to cut shit out or the next time's a perma.


Reasons against:
-The number of fights will increase
-Some jerks might use this as a way of baiting people into a fight (I'd say keeping notes about these instances will be enough to build a casefile against a Kill Baiter)
-The number of tear filled adminhelps about people's devastated anuses will increase drastically, at least for a few weeks before people relearn the game.

[Tornadium]

Does sec fall under this policy?

If not that's fucking lame.

[invisty]

I honestly think we should leave a large grey area in the middle of this policy and leave it to the admins. It's inevitable that the admins are going to have to evaluate a situation and make a call, and trying to pre-define what is and isn't bannable just leads to shitlers learning exactly what they can and can't get away with.

[Xhagi]

Points of discussion:
-We may or may not allow you to space their body afterwards
-We may or may not allow you to hide their body on station, somewhere out of the way
-We may or may not require you to make sure they can revived, i.e. either requiring you to atleast dump them out in the hall and call for a medic to pick up the corpse, or actually require you hand deliver them to medbay. (I personally think this is retarded, but I'm just putting it out there)

While I'm not a fan of removing someone from the round over minor issues, if the person in question feels that they should do so, then they should. Of course, as soon as the jerk gets revived they will probably yell 'X KILLED ME ARREST HE' which may end up with the victim in perma. While that would also be an IC issue, so then would having your body tossed from the local airlock.

-What happens if the victim escalates to a fist fight and loses it?
--Do they get told man up and be more robust, or does the jerk get a stern telling off?
--Is the jerk allowed/disallowed/required to do the above points, re:jerk's body, for the victim's body if the victim lost?

One of my worries is that people will then use this to be jerks, get into fights, kill their victim and either run off or space the body. You would have to keep notes on people to ensure they are not baiting people like this. Again, it would be more IC issue, but something to carefully watch.

Reasons for:
-IC jerks are part of SS13's history and culture
-Getting into fights over petty shit is in turn, part of SS13's history and culture
-IC conflict is what makes the game interesting and stops the rounds being stale repeats of the same day over and over again.
-IC issues have their own enforcement system, that being station security - if you fight someone over something petty you should probably expect both of you to get thrown in the slammer and told to cut shit out or the next time's a perma.

I think moving things more to affect IC is a good move as it helps keep the game flowing and would honestly keep out admin intervention.

Reasons against:
-The number of fights will increase
-Some jerks might use this as a way of baiting people into a fight (I'd say keeping notes about these instances will be enough to build a casefile against a Kill Baiter)
-The number of tear filled adminhelps about people's devastated anuses will increase drastically, at least for a few weeks before people relearn the game.

Number of fights going up is not that bad of a thing, and made mention of what I thought about the second point above. And when isn't ahelp full of salty tears? Now admins can just tell people to man up when they decide to be cunts and can't handle being robusted. It would need careful monitoring, that being the keyword. To monitor and observe, but not intervene unless it became absolutely necessary for the admins.

[Malkevin]

Does sec fall under this policy?

If not that's fucking lame.

Yes, they fall under this policy, with this notable exception:

Security that are doing their jobs properly are not being jerks, no you can't bomb the brig because security took your toolbelt and gloves because they caught you breaking into the captain's quarters to smoke his cigar - I really shouldn't have to preempt this thread with this point but unfortunately I know I will.

So if an officer is doing the "Pick up that can or I'll stun you" routine they'll forfeit their OOC protection the same as anyone would if they decide to be an asshole.

But security that ARE doing their jobs CORRECTLY with LEGITIMATE arrests WILL be PROTECTED OOCly, because otherwise every rabid retard that screams "I'm soooo gonna get back at you when I get out of here" is going to be summarily executed.

[Tornadium]

As long as I can beat some shithead whose sole contribution to the round has been fucking with sec without getting bwoinked I'm happy.

[Malkevin]

I just realised what you were asking.

Yeah, I don't see why, when a grey shirt steals an officers baton he can't beat the grey out of him when he eventually catches up with the grey shirt.

The concept of allowing people to fuck with the most heavily armed people on the station but not allow them to fight back is one of the stupidest polices we've continued to have.

[Amelius]

Agreed that this is a good idea, since it's close to how things used to work when we had... looser admin regulation. Clown being a shit? Beat him up a bit. These days you can't even do that without a bwoink. Heck, you can't even non-harmfully perma Ian-killers without getting bwoinked for it, shit's gotten ridiculous.

Now to clarify:
> -We may or may not allow you to space their body afterwards

No spacing UNLESS it was a sustained escalation, i.e. someone acts like a jerk -> dude throws a punch at him -> brawl ensues -> one dies, spacing should NOT be the natural outcome there. Words are words, after all, sans Woody Got Wood. They should be either left dead where they were, or deposited in cloning/medbay for defibbing and so forth. That said, if the killed dude goes back for more, it's legitimate to space him, since it's clear he'll keep coming back for more. I believe this should remain entirely IC, unless they have a history of killbaiting.

> -We may or may not allow you to hide their body on station, somewhere out of the way

No point. Hiding accomplishes nothing for either side, other than taking one out of the round for longer.

> -We may or may not require you to make sure they can revived, i.e. either requiring you to atleast dump them out in the hall and call for a medic to pick up the corpse, or actually require you hand deliver them to medbay. (I personally think this is retarded, but I'm just putting it out there)

As I said before, I disagree with this policy, and leaving the body where it fell is sufficient, anything in excess of that is merely a bonus. That said, I believe you shouldn't <hide> the corpse unless it's a sustained escalation, as I said previously.

> -What happens if the victim escalates to a fist fight and loses it?
--Do they get told man up and be more robust, or does the jerk get a stern telling off?
--Is the jerk allowed/disallowed/required to do the above points, re:jerk's body, for the victim's body if the victim lost?

If the victim escalates to a fist fight and loses it, tough shit. He escalated the fight, it takes two to escalate a situation from words/tabling to outright murder. Just means he's gonna have to sit at the cloner or defib, and if he goes back for more then he's valid for a spacing. If the other guy tries to re-escalate the situation then it's probably kill-baiting and it should be looked into. To be honest, I don't really count 'harsh words' as an attempt to re-escalate. Obviously you're gonna hate someone's guts that just killed you IC. I'm talking tabling/punching.

Jerk follows the same rules as outlined above - first kill either leave the body where it fell (unless it's maint), bring it to medbay, and/or call in sec/medbay to grab the corpse. The only thing is required is that you don't hide or space it, for both vic and jerk. If the vic comes back for more, then hiding/spacing the corpse is valid.

Also 'coming back for more' does not mean 'calling security on your ass for murder'. If security decides to perma or 10 min. you for murder/assault, tough shit.

[Not-Dorsidarf]

An addenendum - if you try to escalate to murder and get dunked, calling security when you get cloned is absolutely escalation, because you're trying to get him taken out of the round (also, pretty sure perma is considered administratively equivalent to execution, except that security don't need to suck the captain's dick to do it), just via a proxy instead of a toolbox.

[Luke Cox]

Does sec fall under this policy?

If not that's fucking lame.

Try contacting the HoS first, then the Captain. Personally, if people consistently complain about an officer I'll demote them immediately. Security is a little different because their job gives them the authority to interfere with other people's jobs.

Speaking of security, I would always recommend going to security before escalating anything beyond a couple whacks. Any good HoS will take care of them immediately. The only reasonable thing for an HoS to do in this situation (if it's causing real harm) is take them to the transfer room, strip them of all offending items, give them plastic surgery and mutilate their genitals, then release them with implants that will kill them if the fuck up again.

[Tornadium]

Does sec fall under this policy?

If not that's fucking lame.

Try contacting the HoS first, then the Captain. Personally, if people consistently complain about an officer I'll demote them immediately. Security is a little different because their job gives them the authority to interfere with other people's jobs.

Speaking of security, I would always recommend going to security before escalating anything beyond a couple whacks. Any good HoS will take care of them immediately. The only reasonable thing for an HoS to do in this situation (if it's causing real harm) is take them to the transfer room, strip them of all offending items, give them plastic surgery and mutilate their genitals, then release them with implants that will kill them if the fuck up again.

Actually I was talking about it from the other side of the fence.

If I can't just straight up murder shitheads who round after round do nothing to contribute but fuck with security then god damn.

[Saegrimr]

If I can't just straight up murder shitheads who round after round do nothing to contribute but fuck with security then god damn.

Stop playing security.

[Tornadium]

If I can't just straight up murder shitheads who round after round do nothing to contribute but fuck with security then god damn.

Stop playing security.

You're telling me that certain people who from round start do nothing but drag people while we're trying to arrest, break into the brig, disarm us during fights and countless other instances of bullshit don't deserve to have their skull caved in and gibbed?

[Falamazeer]

Yes they do, but justified security murders are bad because it causes people who otherwise wouldn't interfere in security business to take up arms against them, One bad officer doing these things can lead to the collapse of the whole department, and help strengthen peoples resolve to work against the security forces of other rounds, if you absolutely feel you must murder someone, for the good of your fellows please be sneaky about it.

Just do what I do, enforce the law based on intent, malicious people get harshly dunked with high timers and confiscated evidence, screamers get gulagged (Please fix gulag) and returning attackers get perma. Try to only execute antags and you'll be fine.
Other than that, for funsy troublemakers, short timers, searches with returned items, quick processing, and a "have a secure day" does well enough for people that were just dicking about.

[Oldman Robustin]

I'm fine with all of this, but it needs to be clear that BEING A JERK will not and never let you ESCALATE A FIGHT.

I've had two times in the past two weeks where someone ran up, unprovoked, and did something seriously shitty to me (typically stealing something that I was working on). I would beat them up and take the item back, both times giving them medical aid once they were crit to make sure they didn't die and would see that they were taken to medbay.

Both times they would then come back and use overwhelmingly lethal force (Stunprod + flamthrower in one case, a half-assed bomb in another) as revenge and the admins would give it a pass because "Well you crit him before so naturally they want revenge".

This should be a crystal clear part of policy. If you're the initiator of shitty jerk behavior in a conflict, during the ensuing conflict you CANNOT also be the one to fucking escalate it. If someone crits you after you stole their shit unprovoked, you don't get to be the one to escalate it and try to kill them next. You can try to crit them back or whatever, but escalating to lethality is something only the original victim should have the choice on.

This is a core aspect of real-life law regarding self-defense and its a very common sense principle, yet I'm sitting here frequently trying to explain to experienced admins why someone had no business escalating a fight to lethal levels.

[sirnat]

I had this problem, as an assistant a borg opened the bridge (didnt even law 2 it) I read the status report and stole the fire axe (Which is rarely used by anyone on the damned bridge.) then I bump into a security guard and he harm batons me like 7 times, admins dealt with him. Then the warden instead of brigging me for a few minutes gulag's me for 800 points, making me miss the entire round. (I tried mining, and mined most of the asteroid only to get like 300 points every 10 minutes because iron points are 2 points each)

I then adminhelped about it, and was told I couldn't robust him or even kill him for doing that shit to me, he was being a jerk fnr and wasn't even checking in and making sure I was still alive all over an axe, next round he meta grudged even more and chem implanted me after calling out a false armbladed person (i stung but wasn't even said anything about me what so ever) and the guy killed me in the end.

Imo people who are fucking dicks need to be valid by the person they were being a jerk fnr too. And if killed they don't have to be revived, like seriously the shits annoying and drives me away from even playing most of the time.

[newfren]

I had this problem, as an assistant a borg opened the bridge (didnt even law 2 it) I read the status report and stole the fire axe (Which is rarely used by anyone on the damned bridge.) then I bump into a security guard and he harm batons me like 7 times, admins dealt with him. Then the warden instead of brigging me for a few minutes gulag's me for 800 points, making me miss the entire round. (I tried mining, and mined most of the asteroid only to get like 300 points every 10 minutes because iron points are 2 points each)

I then adminhelped about it, and was told I couldn't robust him or even kill him for doing that shit to me, he was being a jerk fnr and wasn't even checking in and making sure I was still alive all over an axe, next round he meta grudged even more and chem implanted me after calling out a false armbladed person (i stung but wasn't even said anything about me what so ever) and the guy killed me in the end.

Imo people who are fucking dicks need to be valid by the person they were being a jerk fnr too. And if killed they don't have to be revived, like seriously the shits annoying and drives me away from even playing most of the time.

Iron is a fool's game in the gulag - the real point earner is sand. Take a shovel and dig all the squares around you and the one under you and that's 45 points right there. You can chunk out another three by three section to shovel in 30 seconds with the pick then use the shovel again. You can absolutely shit through gulag sentences like this.

[CPTANT]

I had this problem, as an assistant a borg opened the bridge (didnt even law 2 it) I read the status report and stole the fire axe (Which is rarely used by anyone on the damned bridge.) then I bump into a security guard and he harm batons me like 7 times, admins dealt with him. Then the warden instead of brigging me for a few minutes gulag's me for 800 points, making me miss the entire round. (I tried mining, and mined most of the asteroid only to get like 300 points every 10 minutes because iron points are 2 points each)

I then adminhelped about it, and was told I couldn't robust him or even kill him for doing that shit to me, he was being a jerk fnr and wasn't even checking in and making sure I was still alive all over an axe, next round he meta grudged even more and chem implanted me after calling out a false armbladed person (i stung but wasn't even said anything about me what so ever) and the guy killed me in the end.

Imo people who are fucking dicks need to be valid by the person they were being a jerk fnr too. And if killed they don't have to be revived, like seriously the shits annoying and drives me away from even playing most of the time.

You want to kill the warden for applying space law? major trespass + theft= 1000 points

You did the crime, serve the time.

[TheNightingale]

You want to kill the warden for applying space law? major trespass + theft= 1000 points

You did the crime, serve the time.

Possession of a restricted weapon too.

[Amelius]

You want to kill the warden for applying space law? major trespass + theft= 1000 points

You did the crime, serve the time.

Possession of a restricted weapon too.

Don't forget creating a workplace hazard. Someone could slip on that blood!

Vandalism. That baton is going to need to be repaired after a full seven harmbatons, a damn shame we had major budget cuts to security, so now we only get plastic shit.

Assault of an officer, I believe the officer in question broke his hand teaching this assistant a lesson.

Clearly, the warden was merciful.

[Malkevin]

I had this problem, as an assistant a borg opened the bridge (didnt even law 2 it) I read the status report and stole the fire axe (Which is rarely used by anyone on the damned bridge.) then I bump into a security guard and he harm batons me like 7 times, admins dealt with him. Then the warden instead of brigging me for a few minutes gulag's me for 800 points, making me miss the entire round. (I tried mining, and mined most of the asteroid only to get like 300 points every 10 minutes because iron points are 2 points each)

I then adminhelped about it, and was told I couldn't robust him or even kill him for doing that shit to me, he was being a jerk fnr and wasn't even checking in and making sure I was still alive all over an axe, next round he meta grudged even more and chem implanted me after calling out a false armbladed person (i stung but wasn't even said anything about me what so ever) and the guy killed me in the end.

Imo people who are fucking dicks need to be valid by the person they were being a jerk fnr too. And if killed they don't have to be revived, like seriously the shits annoying and drives me away from even playing most of the time.

You can't read:

Security that are doing their jobs properly are not being jerks, no you can't bomb the brig because security took your toolbelt and gloves because they caught you breaking into the captain's quarters to smoke his cigar - I really shouldn't have to preempt this thread with this point but unfortunately I know I will.

No you can't fucking murder the warden because he gave you the proper punishment for a crime you commited, fuck off.

This proposed policy would actually allow that sec officer to harm baton you, if you were resisting, because chuckle fucks that yacky sax around the bridge haven't been funny for years.