/tg/Station 13

This string of nerfs to security is disgusting, It's clearly based on a flawed understanding of the realities of security, Walk a mile in my jackboots before you judge me.
It's unreasonable to expect anyone to want to fight the frothing mass of unwashed heathens we call a crew, bad policy and admin judgement while swimming in in a sea of inadequate equipment, with a veritable ocean of responsibilities.

If you wanna buff up your antags so they can push the round forward, your first step is to BUFF UP YOUR ANTAGS De-clawing security isn't the solution.
The direction you are picking is just taking every reason someone might want to play security and turning it into shit.

This is grudge coding at it's basest and nastiest, And your ill informed judgement that security needs to be weaker only proves you have no buisness fucking with it at all, There is a good damn reason security is referred to as "Loot pinata" And it's not because they are too strong I assure you. In hands untied by rules, it's good equipment, But between trying to keep people from rioting, and trying not to get jobanned, it's functionality slips, Even no holds barred, with even better equipment the nuke-ops can rarely stand against the masses, so why do you think security is anything but woefully inadequate for it's purpose already.

If your only experience with security is getting arrested by them and them seeming OP, you have no buisness trying to balance them, Security needs to be able to decently and somewhat consistently win one on one open fights, Or they will never make it through the round alive, due to the amounts of fights they have to fight to get through even a slow round.

Rule of thumb, If you wanna propose a nerf to security, you should have to play five consecutive rounds of security on sybil during peak hours, Exclude rounds that fall out of normal security conditions such as blob and wizard, count rev twice. and then decide if it's really worth considering. Because damn, we're not playing the same game

That being said, there are a few things that we could do without or reduce, Detain mode should fuck off and die, cooldown on sec masks, or reducing the size of the text, AOE flash should just white screen, not scramble your directions that way you can pick a direction and run away from the problem, meaning it works as a dispersal method without being ass, Furthermore AOE flash shouldn't fuck borgs, just direct contact, meaning they have a chance. Reduce view tiles from sec helmets to 1x1 tiles so AI can still see where in maintenance you dropped and send aid. Boom, done.

Okay seeing as how you responded reasonably to my shitpost I guess I should form an actual response

I'm not sure sec has been hit as hard as you and scones are claiming? Flashes are currently stronger than they've ever been, taser click delay sucks but ranged stuns are godawful anyway. The armor nerfs hurt, yeah, but it's still possible to go toe to toe with antags at the moment. If we were going to buff sec, I'd try and do something like make the warden's camera interface not be shit, or maybe give some new items to the standard officer. The HoS has a dragnet now, maybe something along those lines for normal officers?

Flash, Flashbang, sec helm cams, sec gas mask, armor, taser slowdown, detain mode Some of which I agree with some I dont' but either way It's been a stream of nerfs, packed very close together with more proposed and on the way to a job that's already pretty fragile, The attitude that sec needs nerfed is a wrong one, perpetuated by people who aren't playing security but instead basing it on the ammount of buthurt felt by the dindoos of the station.

Sec's winrate is very sensitive, and the nerfs don't seem to be accounting for the fact that without security being able to win over half it's engagements they will consistently die out further into a round due to the number of engagements they are expected to manage.

My main point being that dragging sec down to help antags along is going to cause more issues than it fixes, the direction should be making antags more powerful overall, They need to come up, not drag sec down.

whodaloo wrote:Okay seeing as how you responded reasonably to my shitpost I guess I should form an actual response

I'm not sure sec has been hit as hard as you and scones are claiming? Flashes are currently stronger than they've ever been, taser click delay sucks but ranged stuns are godawful anyway. The armor nerfs hurt, yeah, but it's still possible to go toe to toe with antags at the moment. If we were going to buff sec, I'd try and do something like make the warden's camera interface not be shit, or maybe give some new items to the standard officer. The HoS has a dragnet now, maybe something along those lines for normal officers?

> Ranged stuns are awful, I'm glad tasers have a shitty unintuitive delay

> Oh by the way we added stamina damage to all ballistic guns so security can be instantly stunned at range by most guns

You gotta at least be consistent if you're going to shit on sec based on an overarching principle.

Falamazeer wrote:De-clawing security isn't the solution.

except that this is entirely subjective and i feel that it's done more good than bad for the game as it is more fun now
so yeah maybe de-clawing security is the solution, and you just need to take it like a man and understand that you won't be "winning" as security as often anymore (as intended)

PKPenguin321 wrote:

Falamazeer wrote:De-clawing security isn't the solution.

except that this is entirely subjective and i feel that it's done more good than bad for the game as it is more fun now
so yeah maybe de-clawing security is the solution, and you just need to take it like a man and understand that you won't be "winning" as security as often anymore (as intended)

I'm so sick of your anti-Security tangent. You do not play Security, you cannot gather balanced perspective on this.

Honestly we'll see how sec fares when Incoming's datum antags come into play god knows when, because that will be the true test, and we can go from there. Current Security is limping but alive. And alive is what matters.

Falmazeer, it's not so much grudgecoding as it is coding by people who simply do not know any better. People who rarely play and/or do not play Security. The misinformed are not malicious, simply off the proper track.

Save it for the age of the datum antag that lurks upon the horizon, for that is where Security shall be reforged in the crucible of robustness

It's been limping for five godamn years. and this much nerf has never been considered this quickly in all my time here.
The code was finally cutting the thin red line some motherfucking slack, helmet cams, radio beepsky, but it was all a trick, Something to get the poor battered souls hopes up before turning it all around and jamming it in.

It's been a slow nerf for security since the code went public, My taser shot can't even make it offscreen before it just gives up fighting depression and dies.
And it has less shots than ever, And anything neat that's ever been added to it has been removed, You used to be able to KO people by disarm intent to the noggin at close range. too cool, had to go.

Meanwhile, every motherfucker in the game can make a stun baton and cuffs within a minute, there's mechs, a cyborg that launches grenades, Slippping lasts as long as a stun baton, and often works better. Fire axes, all of them. a tomato that can space you, and space wizards have discovered the plane of guns.

I can't name a single buff security has gotten since creation that isn't under fire right now besides the fix for pull, when people could "accidently" free your prisoner by bumping. Pepper spray? Literately worthless unless they aren't wearing anything, then it's just weak shitty ketchup spray. the space suits? the engie ones come with jetpacks, and every other space suit has one right next to it. why? because fuck you that's why. Riot shield? used to block spit, and be worth having, now it's just something to clack your baton off of to look cool.

Have faith.

Sounds like you should stop playing

edit:I feel bad about this comment

Do you have some constructive ways to buff security that don't make attacking a security officer a touchstone to have the AI crawl so far up your ass you can't survive for more than 5 minutes

I thought of a thing
https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=4022

Sounds liek u should stahp suckin

And yes, yes I do, Leave standard armor alone on bullet resistance, but have it resist the disabling effects therof, as well as disabler beams themselves to aid with friendly fire three shots for unarmored, four for armored. there is no good damn reason why it should take as many bullets to drop security to the ground as it does the clown.

Nerf slips, there is no godamn reason a slip should be as good as a stun, except that pushes and shoves liked to push and shove. and he's gone, Your hands should be unaffected, meaning you could pull out your baton and fight from the ground. And this would apply to everyone equally. from lowly assistant to lordly captain. Space lube being the obvious exception, as well as bars of soap and syndic soap which would act like space lube in that regard.

Remove taser cooldown, Bobbers and weavers take good advantage of this, and it's really godamn annoying, Allow tasing at touch range, In case they get close, and give taser an "Off" where all the colors are greyed out for the charge level, Then sec who plans ahead might be rewarded for having the foresight to turn the safety on.

Throwing an active baton should work as a ranged stun, I don't really think this would help, but it'd be amazing to watch people try it, and it's completely balanced by missing and having it picked up and used on you.

Fix gulag so it isn't cruel and unusual punishment for booking times. fix gulag so it doesn't run out of air after someone actually mines.

Give sec back a medkit, One bruise pack? really?

More would just be bringing them even with everyone else
Give sec hardsuits inbuilt jetpack like everyone else.
Give sec belts the same storage and item limits as everyone else


That's the gist of how I'd fix it, An overhaul on the other hand would be a thread in and of itself.

Hey but at least we're getting krav maga for sec by default pending him updating his PR

<iamgoofball> ALRIGHT SO GENERAL CONSENSUS: Should Security get Krav Maga Y/N
<Scones> Y
<StarToad> Y
<GUN_HOG> Y
<KorLaptop> Y
<Ikarrus> ALMAO
<Vekter> y

I agree that slipping and shoving are ridiculously effective, currently.

Scones wrote:I'm so sick of your anti-Security tangent. You do not play Security, you cannot gather balanced perspective on this.

Sorry if it comes off that way, I just believe security should be less strong code-wise but MUCH more powerful policy-wise (which unfortunately hasn't been working out, it seems).
I actually believe security is at a good point code-wise and don't think it should be nerfed or buffed at all. Security still "wins" rounds, but are still mortals, and antags are something to fear.

Nice back-peddling.



The fuck is Krav Maga? Not asking out of lazyness, I googled it, It's a fighting style developed in israel, Then I forum searched it, It's something goof coded. But what the fuck does it do? Leg sweeps and shit? how does this affect gameplay if sec actually gets such a thing?

edit: Ah, forgot to try github, there it is.
https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/10306

So on Sybil OOC Goof admitted to forcing in yet another change that he didn't bother to seriously balance prior to adding, so that we may exploit its brokenness and hope it gets fixed a month later.

Security gets it this time, at least...oh, and antags.

I don't care about balance this time.

In fact this is great, sec players can now fully roleplay the use of reasonable force, from empty-handed use of force to things like batons and tasers. Also there are concerns I guess, of job-change officers or disguised antags who don't or can't buy krav maga gloves not being able to use krav maga but you what, fuck it, who cares. Give sec their martial arts and let them have fun with it/exploit it. Other jobs like science get ridiculous things to play with so why not sec?

DemonFiren wrote:So on Sybil OOC Goof admitted to forcing in yet another change that he didn't bother to seriously balance prior to adding, so that we may exploit its brokenness and hope it gets fixed a month later.

Security gets it this time, at least...oh, and antags.

Wow, thanks for completely taking what I said out of context! Good to know we have such quality individuals in this community we can count on to do this.

I told you nerds I was running it through experienced security and nuke ops players for balancing.

balance isn't real and no coder should strive for it unless it's a complete and utter imbalance

if something in the game upsets you because you can't beat it you're probably honestly like an idiot or something

just fucking merge it already quit talking to these spergs about balance when there is this great thing we could have

Buff your weak antagonist before nerfing sec. The stun re-balancing and now armour nerfs have made sec so much of a wet blanket I am surprised they can hold against mobs at all and now a flashbang nerf on the books all revs need to realize is a mob is almost unmanageable with anything but the total force in once place viva extinguisher.

The game isn't based around balance it is based around imbalance anyone can become the captain or loot his but they sure don't start on equal footing. Asymmetry ensures that nerfing sec to indirectly buff one antagonist will send the balance on the rest of them bonkers because they aren't created equal them drat selves. I have advocated strengthening weak antags for so drat long. Sure officers start out fantastically positioned change the neglected jobs to catch up eventually or give your antagonist an good position of their own.

imblyings wrote:In fact this is great, sec players can now fully roleplay the use of reasonable force, from empty-handed use of force to things like batons and tasers. Also there are concerns I guess, of job-change officers or disguised antags who don't or can't buy krav maga gloves not being able to use krav maga but you what, fuck it, who cares. Give sec their martial arts and let them have fun with it/exploit it. Other jobs like science get ridiculous things to play with so why not sec?

Easy change: 1% chance every time you're hit or blocked by a krav maga master that you learn krav maga yourself.

"But Arete that'll just be powergamed by sec giving everyone krav maga powers."

If the station is in the kind of deep shit that gives sec reason to allow all the shitlers to learn krav maga, then it's the perfect time for a martial arts training montage. Works as intended.

don't forget there has been a huge buff to security

having antag roll before job has virtually doubled the average amount of officers and has improved their quality as well.

CPTANT wrote:don't forget there has been a huge buff to security

having antag roll before job has virtually doubled the average amount of officers and has improved their quality as well.

That's not the same thing as a "huge buff to security"

It doesn't matter how good a player is if he dies like a lemming to any attack, or is stormed under by twenty revs because "I got flashbanged yesterday and wasnt able to get away. This means flashbangs are OP, i'll go nerf them"

Krav maga looks really fuckin' cool while also not being that significant for security since it would only be used it do-or-die situations (as the rest of the time you'd have a baton or taser). I believe this is a security buff a lot of people have been asking for that gives sec an improvement without shifting power in the direction of either security or antagonists too much.
I have faith that it will be a good change, since the only negative thing I can see coming from it is shitcurity beating people to death with their toolbox hands (but the thing is, they could already do that with a baton, so what's the difference). Please don't shit on iamgoofball too hard until this one's in the game, it really does look like a good change.

It's a good change because it's fun and not gamebreaking, aka something pretty much every other department has got but security has not.

My ten brute kicks will instill fear into criminals.

Scones wrote:It's a good change because it's fun and not gamebreaking, aka something pretty much every other department has got but security has not.

My ten brute kicks will instill fear into criminals.

fifteen* brute kicks. if they're on the ground you get a +5 to unarmed damage

I remember while back when Security,Antags, and everyone else were more or less on even footing. Nobody bitched about armor being too powerful,antags being too weak,sec being too strong. So many bad changes(which I hate personally, fuck anyone else that likes them) disrupted core gameplay on /tg/ to where people began to cry about this that otherwise had been fine FOR YEARS.

Here's what should be done. Sec has been buffed in all the wrong ways, and recent changes are primarily correcting this.

Nerf/change ggnore flashes, remove babbycams and other nigh uncounterable passive gear (proposed implants). Remove taser delay. Add a couple shots. Increase taser range. Bam, solved with a couple tweaks.

Amelius wrote:Here's what should be done. Sec has been buffed in all the wrong ways, and recent changes are primarily correcting this.

Nerf/change ggnore flashes, remove babbycams and other nigh uncounterable passive gear (proposed implants). Remove taser delay. Add a couple shots. Increase taser range. Bam, solved with a couple tweaks.

Basically:
Old Flashes
No cameras
Revert armor nerf
No implants
Bring back tasers in their full glory
in short old gameplay,less shit.

RG4 wrote:

Amelius wrote:Here's what should be done. Sec has been buffed in all the wrong ways, and recent changes are primarily correcting this.

Nerf/change ggnore flashes, remove babbycams and other nigh uncounterable passive gear (proposed implants). Remove taser delay. Add a couple shots. Increase taser range. Bam, solved with a couple tweaks.

Basically:
Old Flashes
No cameras
Revert armor nerf
No implants
Bring back tasers in their full glory
in short old gameplay,less shit.

I disagree with rebuffing their armor on top of vastly improved tasers. It's too heavy a buff for a role that is both hilariously OP and UP at the same time. Rather, I'd propose far looser regulations for sec conduct. You shouldn't be getting bwoinked for permaing an Ian killer with no escalation a long with a demand for release, for instance (this happened), or killing/permaing greytiders that used to be a tradition.

Falamazeer wrote:It's been limping for five godamn years. and this much nerf has never been considered this quickly in all my time here.
The code was finally cutting the thin red line some motherfucking slack, helmet cams, radio beepsky, but it was all a trick, Something to get the poor battered souls hopes up before turning it all around and jamming it in.

It's been a slow nerf for security since the code went public, My taser shot can't even make it offscreen before it just gives up fighting depression and dies.
And it has less shots than ever, And anything neat that's ever been added to it has been removed, You used to be able to KO people by disarm intent to the noggin at close range. too cool, had to go.

Meanwhile, every motherfucker in the game can make a stun baton and cuffs within a minute, there's mechs, a cyborg that launches grenades, Slippping lasts as long as a stun baton, and often works better. Fire axes, all of them. a tomato that can space you, and space wizards have discovered the plane of guns.

I can't name a single buff security has gotten since creation that isn't under fire right now besides the fix for pull, when people could "accidently" free your prisoner by bumping. Pepper spray? Literately worthless unless they aren't wearing anything, then it's just weak shitty ketchup spray. the space suits? the engie ones come with jetpacks, and every other space suit has one right next to it. why? because fuck you that's why. Riot shield? used to block spit, and be worth having, now it's just something to clack your baton off of to look cool.

Flashbangs alone make sec easier than now than it was at any time prior to being added. Antag nerfs also make sec a much cushier job than it used to be.

Before you could pen the HoS, put on all his shit and c4/space/hide his body, run up through brig maint and rush his office, jam in the implant and murder the rest of sec with impugnity. Stungloves meant that the average assistant was more robust than security. I was at worst neutral on these things because I like SS13 when its fun to watch, even if I'm dead from pen+c4 while I'm watching.

You're cherry picking from SS13 history to put together an absurd narrative that the facts just don't support.

Edit: Keep jewjitsu as a niche traitor item/gimmick. Giving it to all sec is just asking for a lot of stupidity at best (beating up criminals for lulz) and at worst it really takes away from the desperation of melee combat, using improvised weapons, etc. when being unarmed lets you stun, choke, or just outright murder someone in 7 hits.

Edit 2: Flashbang nerf? Just stop being shit coders please.

To be honest I really dislike the "shoot first, instawin" combat the taser introduces, even though I frequently use it as sec.

I would not mourn tasers being completely replaced by (buffed, more ammo or so) disablers.

The problem isn't that sec is OP, it is that there are way to few traitors in a round and they are too weak.

Amelius wrote:

RG4 wrote:

Amelius wrote:Here's what should be done. Sec has been buffed in all the wrong ways, and recent changes are primarily correcting this.

Nerf/change ggnore flashes, remove babbycams and other nigh uncounterable passive gear (proposed implants). Remove taser delay. Add a couple shots. Increase taser range. Bam, solved with a couple tweaks.

Basically:
Old Flashes
No cameras
Revert armor nerf
No implants
Bring back tasers in their full glory
in short old gameplay,less shit.

I disagree with rebuffing their armor on top of vastly improved tasers. It's too heavy a buff for a role that is both hilariously OP and UP at the same time. Rather, I'd propose far looser regulations for sec conduct. You shouldn't be getting bwoinked for permaing an Ian killer with no escalation a long with a demand for release, for instance (this happened), or killing/permaing greytiders that used to be a tradition.

Of all the times I've played sec I never remember armor actually being useful outside HoS,Riot,or bullet proof sets. Standard armor was more of a factor in completely dying and having an extra spot for the taser to stay instead of taking up a backpack slot. 100% of the times when you were attacked by an antag they were using esword,revolver, or another taser. These weapons either stunned you,knocked you out or down and made the armor a moot point, espically getting stunned and beaten, the only benefit it had was allowing survivability against low brute weapons. The point I'm making is that servery nerfing security is retarded as well for a armor reduction which barely saved anyone.

We never escaped stun combat, I think trying was a mistake, the meta just keep changing to the most robust insta stun item.

Thing is with the new bleeding system a lot of the hypothetical survivors (most people just beat their opponent until death gasp anyway so hits to crit isn't the be all and end all) under old armour would just bleed to death anyway. So I don't really get why it needed to happen so soon.

So like many players I don't really like hybrid tasers. So by the numbers a hybrid taser has ~20 disabler shots and two electrodes as it stands; Now the values for each of these is 30 sta dmg for a disabler shot and a hit of weaken for an electrode shot. What is interesting is when you compare this to the detectives revolver, who is *supposed* to be a non-combat role: 6, instantly re-loadable compared to the advtaser mind you, shots that do 15 damage, weakens, and does 50 sta damage. And yet we do not see detectives every round running about dropping fools like their the HoS now do we?

Can we replace the hybrid tasers with detective revolvers?

Also can someone name something that a sec officer gets that another role does not?

Edit: ;

Detective revolver is unironically the most robust (normally obtainable) weapon in the game.

It doesn't get abused that much I think because a lot of people don't realise how good it is.
If people did, traitors would be emaggin into the detective's office every round for it, if there's no round start det.

RG4 wrote: Of all the times I've played sec I never remember armor actually being useful outside HoS,Riot,or bullet proof sets. Standard armor was more of a factor in completely dying and having an extra spot for the taser to stay instead of taking up a backpack slot. 100% of the times when you were attacked by an antag they were using esword,revolver, or another taser. These weapons either stunned you,knocked you out or down and made the armor a moot point, espically getting stunned and beaten, the only benefit it had was allowing survivability against low brute weapons. The point I'm making is that servery nerfing security is retarded as well for a armor reduction which barely saved anyone.

You underestimate how useful armor was for surviving brute attacks. It was something like double the e-sword hits to crit, or a load more punches/toolboxes to the face.
It was most useful in rev and cult, where enemies often just relied on mobbing you with random shit they pickup. Also lings, who often use armblade + emp, but not with an actual stun.

Everyone who complains about the taser nerf is a fucking scrub.

There's no other way about it. You're the same morons who would attempt taser-storm under old runspeeds, get out juked, and then your shit slapped and cry "taser needs more bolts! taser projectile too slow!"

None of these weapons will ever be good enough for you to win fights with because you were never good enough at fighting.

1) Stop carrying it around in taser mode. Disabler mode first. 99.9999% of the time disabler mode first.
2) Soften them up with two or three hits with the disabler first. If you can't manage to hit them three times with disabler spam and all these shots just stop fucking playing the game.
3) When they're crippled and slowly trying to crawl towards you to bop you with some stun prod or hypo or whatever, switch to the taser and juice 'em. GG NO RE.

The only time you should go straight to the taser is if you're about to blast someone who has no idea they're about to be arrested. Against someone who is aware and actively trying to dodge and fight with you don't.fucking.try.to.taser.first.

...and don't forget about all the other awesome shit you have like your baton, flashbangs, pepperspray, etc.

I hate to break it to you but the problem isn't in the taser it's in the officer holding it.

Git gud.

Source: I killed a whole cult singlehandedly as a regular sec officer once with nothing but my baton and a box of flashbangs. MAXIMUM DORF never forget.

Melee values aren't that important to me, the real discussion should be the stamina damage from handguns, which I thought was a great idea, and still might be if someone ever bothers to give armor any kind of resistance to it. because it really doesn't matter if the new normal is that everyone gets stunned and dropped from it at the same rate.


And anon, Disabler fire has the same slowdown, Meaning you're retarded and wrong, if you can juke the first one, you can juke the rest about half the time if you're goood
.
Your source doesn't even involve a gun, but flashbangs, a box of them no less. but let's go down the list on why else you're wrong
-Goon used to have fire extinguisher pattern shots because old speeds made them critical, We didn't so taser storm was your only hope.
-And taser bolts were so slow you could catch up to them and hit yourself if you wanted to. Or shooting in the direction you were running guaranteed the same.
-More shots WERE needed, because it was significantly harder to shoot someone because of the reasons listed before, Most significantly that shooting someone with a bullet that's slower than them took a certain kinda luck and skill, and most predominately hoped they'd dodge one shot into another.
-And any list of awesome stuff that contains pepper spray is wrong. Clearly.


Edit for fairness: yeah, You gotta point about disablers though, too many people try to pursue with that, I've done it once or twice and kicked myself mentally in the ass over it.

An0n3 wrote:Everyone who complains about the taser nerf is a fucking scrub.

There's no other way about it. You're the same morons who would attempt taser-storm under old runspeeds, get out juked, and then your shit slapped and cry "taser needs more bolts! taser projectile too slow!"

None of these weapons will ever be good enough for you to win fights with because you were never good enough at fighting.

1) Stop carrying it around in taser mode. Disabler mode first. 99.9999% of the time disabler mode first.
2) Soften them up with two or three hits with the disabler first. If you can't manage to hit them three times with disabler spam and all these shots just stop fucking playing the game.
3) When they're crippled and slowly trying to crawl towards you to bop you with some stun prod or hypo or whatever, switch to the taser and juice 'em. GG NO RE.

The only time you should go straight to the taser is if you're about to blast someone who has no idea they're about to be arrested. Against someone who is aware and actively trying to dodge and fight with you don't.fucking.try.to.taser.first.

...and don't forget about all the other awesome shit you have like your baton, flashbangs, pepperspray, etc.

I hate to break it to you but the problem isn't in the taser it's in the officer holding it.

Git gud.

Source: I killed a whole cult singlehandedly as a regular sec officer once with nothing but my baton and a box of flashbangs. MAXIMUM DORF never forget.

Dante Smith used to murderbone the entire station every chance he got.
As it stands sec officers are equipped like uppity bartenders except held to a higher standard, this is not purely a admin policy problem just as it is not purely a code problem.
Edit: Also I want 3x3 pepperspray back.

Ah yeah that amazing disabler that takes people down in one less shot than a lasergun. Why in our new anti stun utopia do we still insist officers bring prisoners in alive perplexes me obviously being taken in by security is so bad people would almost rather be dead.

Harm batons no longer stun infinitely without charge so your example of the classic squat on nine guys and murder them all hasn't applied if that is integral to your security works fine so everyone should want it nerfed tale.

Piss weak officers will fall extensively before group modes and anything outside whatever tired tunnel vision one game mode rebalancing plan they get changed under as things stand and are set to change with the security nerfs slowly accumulating.

lumipharon wrote:

RG4 wrote: Of all the times I've played sec I never remember armor actually being useful outside HoS,Riot,or bullet proof sets. Standard armor was more of a factor in completely dying and having an extra spot for the taser to stay instead of taking up a backpack slot. 100% of the times when you were attacked by an antag they were using esword,revolver, or another taser. These weapons either stunned you,knocked you out or down and made the armor a moot point, espically getting stunned and beaten, the only benefit it had was allowing survivability against low brute weapons. The point I'm making is that servery nerfing security is retarded as well for a armor reduction which barely saved anyone.

You underestimate how useful armor was for surviving brute attacks. It was something like double the e-sword hits to crit, or a load more punches/toolboxes to the face.
It was most useful in rev and cult, where enemies often just relied on mobbing you with random shit they pickup. Also lings, who often use armblade + emp, but not with an actual stun.

All I remember is getting whacked in the head once or twice, getting KO'd more times than I can counter against eswords and armblades, and by right of whose actually robust you can crit someone whose wearing standard armor in just a few whacks before they even realize what's going on. If you want to make them powerful then have eswords/arm blades have a special condition that ignores armor, espically the fucking esword because it's a goddamn lightsaber.

The only way you were getting rekt in two shots to the head is if you weren't wearing your helmet.

At some point it was rumored you could target the mouth and get head-shot chances to KO while bypassing the head protection itself. Not sure if that actually worked or was just a myth. That was ages ago anyway. 2010-11 was the era of punching people in the mouth and just assuming it was working.

Antimattercarp wrote:Dante Smith used to murderbone the entire station every chance he got.
As it stands sec officers are equipped like uppity bartenders except held to a higher standard, this is not purely a admin policy problem just as it is not purely a code problem.
Edit: Also I want 3x3 pepperspray back.

No. Dante Smith used to play roboticist 24/7 and subvert a horde of borgs to murderbone for him. He was nowhere near one of the most robust players 1v1 of that era.

Falamazeer wrote:-snip-

If the disabler has a cooldown between shots it's not long enough for me to notice. It fired frequently enough for me to quickly use it for its intended purpose: crippling someone's ability to fight back from a safe distance.

I referenced the flashbang-fueled baton beatdown of a whole cult to demonstrate the point that you don't even need the fucking taser to go wild on people. If your whole ability to fight anyone and anything is totally ruined because the taser is different now you aren't using your whole toolkit to its maximum potential.

Pepperspray works great against someone without eye protection, especially if they're trying to shoot shit back at you. You can swoop in and dose them with it and then run back out. Making someone drop their gun isn't as good as taking away their ability to use it effectively. Admittedly, it did use to be a lot better when it stunned people without eye-pro.

The biggest problem I have with current security, is how much they get utterly, utterly wrecked in low pop nuke ops

Can we give security something to at least fight the nuke ops that ISN'T a stunbaton and ISN'T in the armory

Nuke ops tend to have a hard time in high pop because of the overwhelming numbers of people they have to fight

I mean, if it's nuke ops, the armory gets bombed 90% of the time
Their guns are way better (and you cannot use them anymore)
If they have an eshield, your disabler and taser shots will do more damage to yourself than them
Flashbang immunity

Personally I think the best way to resolve that is to nerf the eshield from 100% reflection, but, some sec buffs with nuke ops in mind would be nice

The problem there is that anything given to security to combat nuke ops on low pop will translate into high pop, where nuke ops almost always lose, also vice versa anything given to nuke ops to help in high pop will translate into low pop.

I honestly think the best solution is to lower the amount of nuke ops on low pop (two or three operatives) while increasing the amount of ops on high pop (seven or eight).

Nuke ops lose high pop because they never take flashbangs