/tg/Station 13

Your byond account: shultays
Your character name: Alyssia Hussain
Their character name: Molly Slysbern
Their byond account(optional, but useful if you can provide it): spiritofrevenge
Server and time: 2015-06-20 17:10
Logs and/or screenshots:
Here is the screen shot that he disarmed me and attacked me
http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2a6l6x5 ... YXbPvnva-Q
Logs from admin, It only shows the red part
http://pastebin.com/qmXxRRk7

Description of what happened:
It was a gang round and I was security, I first saw molly in medbay attacking the CMO I think. I stunbutoned him and cuffed him then tried to search him.
Then gyrax came in, which was a gang and tried to kill me before. I ran away and left him there cuffed because of these circumsitances.
I was sure he was gang at this point because same gyrax also saved another gang member from me before.
In the escape pod, molly started disarming me and he got my baton. Then tried to zap me but it had no power. then the pod took off and we both fell ground, when I am back I lasered him a couple times.

I wouldn't do any ban request but then this guy called admins on me, lied to them how I critted him for no reason an shit. When I tell the truth he said 'I only disarmed him' which is not correct.
Admin Lollerderby came in and questioned me for quite a while, until I send the screenshot to him. He didn't took my ban request so I am here.

The funny thing is, it was probably not me killing him. Someone else kicked him repeteadly when he is down.

Why they should be banned:

He attacked me in game, lied about the situations to admins and make them tried to ban me.

For some reason spiritofrevenge is unable to post.

spiritofrevenge wrote:Okay. I will explain exactly what happened. FIRST, BEFORE we were on the shuttle. We were in the medical bay, and the guy randomly arrested and stripped me in the middle of the room, leaving my stuff strewn all over the ground, and cuffs on my hands. I was an engineer. Later on, while on the shuttle, I spotted someone in the shuttle brig who had severe bruises, and I happened to have a medkit, so I was going over to heal him. Alyssia was walking around in harm intent, so I couldn't walk past them. I tried to push them onto the ground with disarm intent so I could walk past, and -I MAY- have accidentally picked up their stun baton and prodded them with it. BUT, if I did, it was because I was spam clicking trying to get them on the floor, and if you look at the screenshot he provided, it wasn't even on. Plus, I immediately dropped it since the shuttle launched and caused everyone to fall over. When I got up, I tried to walk into the shuttle brig, and Alysia immediately lasered me to death.

As I said I saw him attacked people in medbay, I tried to search him and had to leave because of gyrax.

Well, if you believe "I accidentally clicked on 3 pixel wide stun baton and then -again accidentally- clicked on him part" he is innocent.

The main thing bordered me, admins went full on me while there is no proof or without checking logs. "I am gonna let you go off for this once"? Seriously? I am not banned only because I was able to take that screenshot.

I don't feel that lasering someone to critical condition ending in their death is generally a reasonable response to being disarmed and prodded with an inactive stunbaton as security; you have stun weapons so that you can safely detain criminals. Under the chaotic circumstances and considering it was a first offense, I didn't think it necessarily needed to end in a ban though.

shultays wrote:As I said I saw him attacked people in medbay, I tried to search him and had to leave because of gyrax.

Well, if you believe "I accidentally clicked on 3 pixel wide stun baton and then -again accidentally- clicked on him part" he is innocent.

The main thing bordered me, admins went full on me while there is no proof or without checking logs. "I am gonna let you go off for this once"? Seriously? I am not banned only because I was able to take that screenshot.

Which admin handled this by chance?

I did.

Ah alrighty

lollerderby wrote:I don't feel that lasering someone to critical condition ending in their death is generally a reasonable response to being disarmed and prodded with an inactive stunbaton as security; you have stun weapons so that you can safely detain criminals. Under the chaotic circumstances and considering it was a first offense, I didn't think it necessarily needed to end in a ban though.

Why do we get admins that don't understand the game mechanics or are aware of the precedents set in the rules?

Stuns are classed OOCly as lethal force because they disable you for so long you're vulnerable to get murdered by them or a passerby, or cuffed which is then a permanent stun.
It is part of the security policy in the rules that security can meet any lethal force, including stuns, with lethal force.

This allowance goes double in extremely chaotic rounds like rev, cult, and gang.

Malkevin wrote:

lollerderby wrote:I don't feel that lasering someone to critical condition ending in their death is generally a reasonable response to being disarmed and prodded with an inactive stunbaton as security; you have stun weapons so that you can safely detain criminals. Under the chaotic circumstances and considering it was a first offense, I didn't think it necessarily needed to end in a ban though.

Why do we get admins that don't understand the game mechanics or are aware of the precedents set in the rules?

Stuns are classed OOCly as lethal force because they disable you for so long you're vulnerable to get murdered by them or a passerby, or cuffed which is then a permanent stun.
It is part of the security policy in the rules that security can meet any lethal force, including stuns, with lethal force.

This allowance goes double in extremely chaotic rounds like rev, cult, and gang.

I can second this. Nobody in their right mind tries to kill a sec officer without disabling it, and it's universally assumed that the officer's life is in danger. If I see somebody stun one of my officers, I will treat it as lethal force without a second thought, as will a lot of officers.

Malkevin wrote:Stuns are classed OOCly as lethal force because they disable you for so long you're vulnerable to get murdered by them or a passerby, or cuffed which is then a permanent stun.
It is part of the security policy in the rules that security can meet any lethal force, including stuns, with lethal force.

Being disarmed twice and prodded with an inactive stunbaton (which isn't logged, apparently), allegedly by accident, only to immediately escalate to lasers when you have stun weaponry to hand is not something I feel should be encouraged. If spiritofrevenge had actually stunned shultays, on-the-spot execution still wouldn't have been fantastic but it probably wouldn't have been worth a pm either.

I am only a trialmin though, so I encourage any other admins to weigh in if they think I mishandled this.

lollerderby wrote:

Malkevin wrote:Stuns are classed OOCly as lethal force because they disable you for so long you're vulnerable to get murdered by them or a passerby, or cuffed which is then a permanent stun.
It is part of the security policy in the rules that security can meet any lethal force, including stuns, with lethal force.

Being disarmed twice and prodded with an inactive stunbaton (which isn't logged, apparently), allegedly by accident, only to immediately escalate to lasers when you have stun weaponry to hand is not something I feel should be encouraged. If spiritofrevenge had actually stunned shultays, on-the-spot execution still wouldn't have been fantastic but it probably wouldn't have been worth a pm either.

I am only a trialmin though, so I encourage any other admins to weigh in if they think I mishandled this.

I would agree (with prioritizing non-lethal means) except that the person in question was suspected of being a gangster. Another important bit of information would be how violent the gangs were. If security has been fighting to stay alive against the gangs then they might be more justified in reacting harshly to any threats. If it was a nice chill round then it makes a lot less sense.

lollerderby wrote: Being disarmed twice and prodded with an inactive stunbaton (which isn't logged, apparently), allegedly by accident, only to immediately escalate to lasers when you have stun weaponry to hand is not something I feel should be encouraged. If spiritofrevenge had actually stunned shultays, on-the-spot execution still wouldn't have been fantastic but it probably wouldn't have been worth a pm either.

This is the bit where I get irked.
Your role as an admin is to enforce the rules and ethoses of the server, your feelings don't mean shit to be quite frank.
Sorry if I'm coming across as having a go at you personally, I'm not, its just that we've had far too many 'mah feels' admins recently and I don't want to see a new one pick up their bad habbits.


The facts of this case are:
The person disarmed an officer of their sidearm
The person tried to stun an officer with their own weapon. Whether the baton was active or not is irrelevant, it just means they were either too dumb or lacked the time to check it was active. To be perfectly honest, the person shoving the sec officer over to barge into the shuttle brig is enough to be asking for it.
An escape shuttle ride during a conversion-team antag round is always going to be a cluster fuck of ambiguity.

Why are you always arguing for out of round responses to behaviour against security?

I agree with how lollerderby handled this. It's impossible to prove a lie in this case as it's word against word. Unless we hook up spirit to a polygrapher, you can't just assume they are out to get you. No one here was given any notes or bans and malkevin is basing his accusations on an assumption of the motive of the other player.

Help intent baton-off prodding is no different than empty-handed "hugging". It's literally the "move it, citizen" emote.

Saegrimr wrote:Help intent baton-off prodding is no different than empty-handed "hugging". It's literally the "move it, citizen" emote.

...which is why it's such a big deal when a non-security crewman steals your baton and does it repeatedly to you.

They did it exactly one time. Look at the screenshot.

oranges wrote:Why are you always arguing for out of round responses to behaviour against security?

I'm not, I'm arguing that out of round responses should be curtailed massively for security dealing with idiots.
If it wasn't for lollerderby maintaining their position that they felt sultays should've been punished I wouldn't have felt the need to comment on this.

You ever hear the saying: The only thing evil needs to prevail is for good men to do nothing?

Saegrimr wrote:Help intent baton-off prodding is no different than empty-handed "hugging". It's literally the "move it, citizen" emote.

Like fuck it is, its like jamming the muzzle of a pistol into somebody's ribs.

NikNakFlak wrote:They did it exactly one time. Look at the screenshot.

How many times does it take someone to realise they just picked up a baton that doesn't work?
Once.
Plus the shuttle departs immediately afterwards so I would assume that he fell over before he got a chance to try again.
You're also ignoring the two times he shoved the officer over, before picking up his baton...


My final thoughts:
Is it possible that spirit is telling the truth, that he accidently picked up the baton and accidently used it against the officer: Yes
Is more likely that he's weaving a yarn of bullshit to stop himself getting banned for ban baiting: Yes
Is there now too much ambiguity to punish either side with a game ban: Yes...

But, if you're going to warn a security officer for being too aggressive during riot conditions then you should also warn everyone else for being too aggressive during riot conditions, or that they just deal with it with whatever happens.

Stop assuming everyone is out to get you jesus

Its not paranoia if they're really out to get you.

I've been playing this game for what, 4/5 years now?
Most of the time as security. I wouldn't put it past anyone to attack security either just because they want some candy from the loot pinata or to get back at the officer for some petty revenge for a slight made against them earlier, like being left naked and cuffed in medbay because a mech chased the officer off.

Perhaps this needs a thread in Policy Discussion

NikNakFlak wrote:Stop assuming everyone is out to get you jesus

You don't play sec often, do you?

This doesn't need a thread in policy discussion and regardless of the single prod, jumping to execution was probably iffy. But again no one got a warning, ban, or even a note in any of these cases. An admin questioning someone is not a big deal and demanding any kind of punishment for any party involved in this is just silly. It was left perfectly IC and the only reason Malkevin is pushing for a ban is because he is accusing the other player of lying, which again, can not be proved.