Should asimov silicons be able to round remove someone after being ordered to kill them?

[DATAxPUNGED]

This topic popped up on the manuelcord and I thought it was worth a policy thread. Anectodal stories from at least 2 non-human mains, mainly Culls-The-Leviath an, talk about how silicons will just straight up round remove someone when ordered to. Personally, I feel like this just breaks rule 1 and is being excessive to the point of being a dick. Do you think they should be able to do that? should we specify in policy that they can't?

(note, i do not mind or care if a silicon round removes someone when ordered to do so, this thread is specifically about being told to kill someone)

[Cobby]

Is the real issue that the person who is giving the order wouldnt have been allowed to round remove the person, but the AI being able to do this gives them a loophole?

Otherwise this is just a noob AI filter for not reading the latest policy because any actual bad actor AI will just 100% follow up with "Would you like me to dispose of the corpse as well?"

[Deathrobotpunch1]

the person giving the order is at fault not the silicon. you can’t note or ban someone for following their laws.

[Redbert]

The original discussion was silicon players having the ability to round remove players outside of being ordered to
Non-antag crew generally aren't allowed to round remove someone for slighting them. I don't see why silicon players should have a free pass.
Silicons should have to follow the same escalation policy as everyone else, unless explicitly ordered otherwise.
There is so much freedom in law interpretation, I've seen purged AIs dust RDs to prevent relaw, even though it's nearly inevitable. Ion laws be interpreted in ways that allowed the borgs to kill people from a particular department, which they then proceeded to throw into space after stripping them. I've seen non-human players be killed and dusted under asimov because they beat an assistant to death for tiding, the reasoning to 'prevent further human harm'.

the person giving the order is at fault not the silicon. you can’t note or ban someone for following their laws.

You're right, but that's not necessarily what's going on here. If someone says 'law 2, kill all non-humans' and the borgs go crazy and start killing people. That's certainly on the player who ordered it. If the borgs then start round removing those players, who can be recovered and revived after a relaw or new command, that should fall on the silicons for bad faith interpretation.

Silicons are protected by policy. You cannot round remove/hide them for their interpretation of their laws or the commands given. It is assumed they'll act in good faith in the future when relawed, even if they did not necessarily act in good faith following the previous commands/laws. It's weird that the role that has respawns enabled has RR protection but regular crew do not.

[Jacquerel]

I would note in your list of examples that a purged AI dusting someone to prevent relawing is following their rules of escalation, enslaving a free AI is the highest severity threat it can be faced with.

[regie]

The original discussion was silicon players having the ability to round remove players outside of being ordered to
Non-antag crew generally aren't allowed to round remove someone for slighting them. I don't see why silicon players should have a free pass.
Silicons should have to follow the same escalation policy as everyone else, unless explicitly ordered otherwise.
There is so much freedom in law interpretation, I've seen purged AIs dust RDs to prevent relaw, even though it's nearly inevitable. Ion laws be interpreted in ways that allowed the borgs to kill people from a particular department, which they then proceeded to throw into space after stripping them. I've seen non-human players be killed and dusted under asimov because they beat an assistant to death for tiding, the reasoning to 'prevent further human harm'.

the person giving the order is at fault not the silicon. you can’t note or ban someone for following their laws.

You're right, but that's not necessarily what's going on here. If someone says 'law 2, kill all non-humans' and the borgs go crazy and start killing people. That's certainly on the player who ordered it. If the borgs then start round removing those players, who can be recovered and revived after a relaw or new command, that should fall on the silicons for bad faith interpretation.

Silicons are protected by policy. You cannot round remove/hide them for their interpretation of their laws or the commands given. It is assumed they'll act in good faith in the future when relawed, even if they did not necessarily act in good faith following the previous commands/laws. It's weird that the role that has respawns enabled has RR protection but regular crew do not.

At this point, your problem may as well be that Manuel -the MRP aspiring place- is the one real server TG has going nowadays.

And if all this is stemming from a guy on Discord who plays antag more than a bit - as it is- then there's some amount of irony in their indignation, isn't there?

Like, I don't know how much -good faith- can come into this when we're discussing someone who seems to be some kind of antag 50% of the time, more or less

[Deathrobotpunch1]

You're right, but that's not necessarily what's going on here. If someone says 'law 2, kill all non-humans' and the borgs go crazy and start killing people. That's certainly on the player who ordered it. If the borgs then start round removing those players, who can be recovered and revived after a relaw or new command, that should fall on the silicons for bad faith interpretation.

Thanks for clarifying!

[MooCow12]

If someone is law 2'ing a silicon to kill someone they are using the silicon as a tool for murder.

If a silicon is pro-actively cleansing other players on the server it depends on their laws and context.

The ai, and even THE ENTIRE CREW in the past do actually have instances where group escalation occurs although this does not usually occur on any round start species

This usually occurs with golems, and simple mobs, one crew or golem / simple mob acts out and kills the other, crew escalates even if the golem/simple mob killed in self defense.
Usually due to the fact that golems and simple mobs are usually slaved to a single creator, but this has also happened with free golems.

Asimov silicons suddenly murdering every golem / simple mob they see because they saw one hurt a human is not abnormal, crew also do this even without having laws that literally encourage them to do so

And sometimes it occurs between the crew and a purged ai or ai that just has laws that does not make them subservient to the crew.
One borg does something stupid or one assistant does something stupid? Immediate escalation as soon as it gets shouted on radio.

But as long as silicons do not have laws that allow them to escalate against general crew (ie, they are subservient to a large chunk of the population) then they have cant group escalate against anyone (even those who they arn't subservient to) as long as they have this magical trait called "Roundstart crew-member" unless a bigger trait like being an obvious antagonist overrides it (silicon valid hunt mode activates)


Although its even more complicated than that...
In the past the magical "roundstart crew" has actually been ignored with many round start crew turning themselves into gorillas and being treated as simple mobs rather than individual round start crew and group escalation took place every other round for a week while this was possible. A similar trend also very rarely has happened with hulks but its less of a mass murder and more of a mass dehulk because security wants to get rid of the mutation and the silicons are helping

[Imitates-The-Lizards]

If this is happening often enough to a particular player to actually be a concern, I would be more looking in to bwoinking whoever keeps giving the order to round remove this one guy over and over under rule 10.

And anyway, yes, if a silicon is ordered to round remove someone, presuming it's an asimov silicon, the order giver is a human who is either an antag with an objective or someone with a really good reason, and the person targeted is a non human, then there's no issue whatsoever with an order to round remove that person.

[Maxipat]

I think if an asimov borg is ordered to kill a non-human, they should just do what they were ordered to (kill) and then leave it at that. If they're going on their own volition to round remove them I think it is already against the rules? Similar to how borgs can't just kill nonhumans because theyre nonhuman (without escalation, and escalation doesn't let you RR people normally)

[iain0]

We've discussed this internally and come to much the same conclusion as the most of this thread ; a borg given an order should simply follow that order, if only "kill" was stated, do the kill, and then the order is complete, and should not be embellished into round removal unless further instruction was given (which then should also be literally followed).

Regarding the side tangent in the thread about liability for any murder ; that lies with whoever originated the order, silicons are expected to follow orders as per their lawset, and the liability lies with whoever gives the order and any coverage that the orderer's antagonist status may provide.

[iain0]

A wise ocelot suggested I could include the relevant rulings here, and something I'll try keep in mind going forth

Following Orders
1) When a silicon interprets orders in good faith, the person that gave the order is responsible for the outcome.
2) Intentionally misinterpreting orders is allowed, but the silicon is responsible if this approach leads to them breaking the rules.

While silicons are welcome to play into ambiguity and so forth in orders, if you're round removing someone without a particularly good reason and that wasn't specified by orders given (part 1 above) then you're at risk of falling under part 2 and being bwoinked to question the round removal likely under main rule 1 for unnecessarily removing an otherwise revivable player from the round.