[<Iansdoor>] Annihilite - Power and escalation

[Annihilite111]

BYOND account: Annihilite

Ban/note type (Server Ban/Discord Ban/Forum Ban/Note): Note

Ban/note duration: Permanent
Ban/note reason:As a non-antag botantist in a skub round, was frustated with CE cutting power, to the west side of the catwalkstation, went ahead, after security non-lethally detained the CE, killed a cuffed CE with a welder, leaving their body on the floor, taking their belongings. Escalation rules state that you may start conflict with them, but killing a crewmate is a severe response, and requires severe justification to do and any critically wounded characters must be treated or taken to the medbay by the standing party where reasonable, and taking unnecessary action against a downed player opens you up to reprisal. https://wiki.tgstation13.org/Rules
Time ban was placed:2025-04-18 18:56:22
Server you were playing on when banned:Terry
Round ID in which ban was placed:Round 251349

Why are you making this appeal? (Put an x in the boxes):
() - The ban/note is factually incorrect
(x) - The ban/note is not against the rules
() - The ban/note needs modification
(x) - The ban was unjustifiably harsh
() - I was permabanned and I want another chance

Why should this appeal be accepted?:


I'll get right to it: The CE turned off my power for 30-40 minutes (from his console which is impossible for anyone without his ID to fix and also apparently takes like half an hour to reenable the APCs even after it is) because he started shit with the captain over Skub, resulting in the crew calling to lynch him and the captain ordering him KOS. He was, according to you, fully within his rights to do this to me and everyone else on the section of the station whose workplaces were inoperable, despite us being entirely uninvolved in command's fight. However, despite this - as quoted from escalation policy - "excessively interfering with their ability to do their job" (by blocking it entirely for most of the round) I was not allowed to treat him as an antag, which I would be expected to do had he broken escalation in any other way like attacking me out of nowhere, telling security i was a changeling or otherwise doing stuff that'd get a nonantag banned. It has also been verboten for all the years I've played that if you fuck with someone or the entire crew to a certain extent you're automatically valid and don't get to cry when your head ends up in a toilet (See my own note which we discussed). It's covered in the "act like an antag, get treated like an antag" policy.
While perhaps not relevant for this appeal, I will also say that you didnt note or ban the captain for publically ordering the CE KOS. If the CE was not valid, why did you not see any issue with that?

All in all, the situation is absurd. My workplace is rendered inoperable, the CE is decried as having sabotaged the station's power over comms, the captain orders him KOS and your argument for why i cant treat him like the antag he's acting as is that "I am not security"? On a server with no stay in your lane rules?

[iansdoor]

Howdy there,

Lets pick up from where we left off in the ticket itself.

► Show Spoiler

Ticket Opened by annihilite
2025-04-18 17:48:32
okay so this is some weird shit. Power's been turned back on in service but the APCs still arent delivering to equipment. Is it bugged?
00:02:53
Reply from iansdoor
2025-04-18 17:51:25
no, power goes in cycles that take charge the station apc down a list. service is very far from power. Anywho, Actually, been meaning to ask why did you kill the CE and leave their body at holodeck?
00:00:41
Reply from annihilite
2025-04-18 17:52:06
because he killed power for the entire station for 20 minutes out of (i assume) sheer malevolence. I've lynched people for being far less of a shithead.
00:01:21
Ticket Opened by annihilite
2025-04-18 17:53:27
oh also the captain had a him on KOS
00:00:17
Reply from iansdoor
2025-04-18 17:53:44
nope, that was just the power being slow to recharge, no one wanted to do SM. HE cut power to that side of the station cause security was sent to them by the captain over skub stuff. Anyways, what was your reason for leaving them there and not making sure they returned to medical or checking if they were an antag? maintaining power is kind of part of their job.
00:01:22
Reply from annihilite
2025-04-18 17:55:06
Well that seems like a good old misunderstanding then. All we on the ground knew is that engineering was throwing a shitfit over SKUB and CE's console cut power. He probably should have made the situation clear when people were yelling at him over comms
00:02:18
Reply from iansdoor
2025-04-18 17:57:24
I feel that, If you do be part of KOS crew, you do have to pay the consquence of such. There was also a take back of the order once they were arrested. So just keep in mind, once you have done the deed, you throw them back into medical or somewhere that they won't get sharded by the chaplain in the future.
00:00:45
Reply from annihilite
2025-04-18 17:58:09
no if you grief that hard you're valid. THat's how it's always been. I have fucking notes for ahelping being left as a head in a toilet after that kind of grief
00:03:01
Reply from iansdoor
2025-04-18 18:01:10
I'll be very honest, I was just gonna leave this as note to reminder, explain to me how your actions that fit in the rule 4 over the misunderstanding you had? The CE was cuffed at the time when you welded them to death.
00:05:54
Reply from annihilite
2025-04-18 18:07:04
Right it's very simple. I was under the impression that the CE had decided to fuck with the station, ostensibly over skub, by disabling our power for no reason (he DID do that and no i dont accept that he needed to disable hydroponics because security was sent to engineering). He was fucking with me and ruining my entire ability to do my job entirely unprompted. This is the exact kind of shit that makes you valid, and i therefore turned his insides into outsides. #Here. Let me get my own notes to illustrate that this is how it works: #"As non antag chaplain - had a botanist create android mutation toxin prickly slippery tower cap logs. Then used these to try and turn people into androids and died in the process. Their head was hidden in a toilet cistern which they ahelped about. Wasn't trying to intentionally banbait from their responses." As you can see i was not aware that my actions of fucking with people excessively made me valid, therefore making the response of beheading my ass and turning me into skib
00:02:13
Ticket Opened by annihilite
2025-04-18 18:09:17
I should add that his actions have, at the time of writing, led to botany being depowered with no way for me to repower it for 50 minutes. Every plan i had for this round went up in smoke
00:00:03
Reply from iansdoor
2025-04-18 18:09:20
Right, and do you consider your actions going too far this time? You left them there to rot and cuffed and power was okay cause someone fixed the issue in engineering, You didn't have to do what you did.
00:01:56
Reply from annihilite
2025-04-18 18:11:16
Read my note. Yes i believe it is okay for me to leave him to rot because i have been noted for complaining that my corpse was left to rot after i did an equivalently griefy thing. Can you point me to where the rules have changed regarding this?
00:20:28
Reply from iansdoor
2025-04-18 18:31:44
Sorry, after thoughts and consider. I think the 2021 note for escalation has been outdated, I'll remind you here with an updated chatter. I am sorry that taking awhile cause the amount of misunderstanding is piling up this skub round.

You may begin IC conflicts with another player if it does not excessively interfere with their ability to do their job. While you are allowed to escalate conflicts, if it leads to violence and you have poor IC reasoning for inciting it, you may face administrative action.

Killing a crewmate is a severe response, and requires severe justification to do, such as those in Rule 1's precedents, or Rule 4.

Critically wounded characters must be treated or taken to the medbay by the standing party where reasonable, and taking unnecessary action against a downed player opens you up to reprisal.
https://wiki.tgstation13.org/Rules
00:01:59
Reply from iansdoor
2025-04-18 18:33:43
Other words, You were the one to finish them off, I get your reasoning but if you are going to act like security or valid hunting, you do have to be subject to proper escalation, which is make sure you think they are antag before leaving them to rot.
00:02:32
Reply from annihilite
2025-04-18 18:36:15
That doesnt take away from the fact that he did something only an antagonist ought to be allowed to do, which still makes him valid i believe. Also you should probably get on his ass for ruining power for unrelated departments as a nonantag then
00:02:12
Reply from iansdoor
2025-04-18 18:38:27
That is his job to cut power. BUT, you can beat his ass for it and get them demoted, you cannot just let them rot for the reason of no power. There is no difference between SMES, wires broken by rats towards whatever job, the list goes on. If they do anything after you beat their ass, you let us know, cause that is bruised ego. This round was a mess by the captain, Don't follow through completely on KOS orders in the beginning over skub issues.
00:00:18
Reply from iansdoor
2025-04-18 18:38:45
is that unreasonable of an ask?
00:01:17
Reply from annihilite
2025-04-18 18:40:02
Oh come on thats bullshit. power wasnt off because of negilgence he literally specifically turned hydroponics power off on the console. It logs everything i saw it. You cant seriously be telling me thats the same thing.
00:01:41
Reply from annihilite
2025-04-18 18:41:43
I know that IC conflict has been curtailed over the years but that is on the condition that you guys step in instead. What do you mean the CE can just fuck with power as a nonantag and you wont do anything???
00:02:25
Reply from iansdoor
2025-04-18 18:44:08
He turned off power on the side of the station. I get how that affects your section, but really. Just make sure you relax on killing folks and get to proper escalation. The orders of KOS over skub and killing a cuffed person, Are you a security officer by that standard? if you aren't then why are you doing those actions?
00:01:31
Reply from annihilite
2025-04-18 18:45:39
Ruining my job is literally against the rules. Rule one literally states that and you havent explained how him being CE magically makes him immune to escalation rules. If he ignores escalation rules i will assume he's an antag
00:01:00
Reply from annihilite
2025-04-18 18:46:39
And why are you talking about stay in your lane rules on LRP?
00:01:53
Reply from iansdoor
2025-04-18 18:48:32
Sure ain't. I am talking about rule 4 and your improper escalation. Their justification to cut power on that side was KOS order from captain and security non-lethally detained them. You went ahead to killed them. I think your actions were over done. Read the rules next time and ahelp to ask questions about a given situation.
00:01:21
Reply from annihilite
2025-04-18 18:49:53
Right. I think that's bullshit and will be making a forum appeal. Go ahead with the note and see you there.
00:00:20
Reply from iansdoor
2025-04-18 18:50:13
Fair enough.
00:06:10
Interaction by iansdoor
2025-04-18 18:56:23
iansdoor/(Vents-Hot-Air) has created a note for Annihilite
As a non-antag botantist in a skub round, was frustated with CE cutting power, to the west side of the catwalkstation, went ahead, after security non-lethally detained the CE, killed a cuffed CE with a welder, leaving their body on the floor, taking their belongings. Escalation rules state that you may start conflict with them, but killing a crewmate is a severe response, and requires severe justification to do and any critically wounded characters must be treated or taken to the medbay by the standing party where reasonable, and taking unnecessary action against a downed player opens you up to reprisal. https://wiki.tgstation13.org/Rules
00:00:13
Reply from iansdoor
2025-04-18 18:56:36
Anything else to add?
00:01:02
Reply from annihilite
2025-04-18 18:57:38
Nothing nice, no.
00:00:15
Reply from iansdoor
2025-04-18 18:57:53
Alrighty, have a nice evening then

Under your understanding of the escalation rules and what you can do after the fact comes from a 2021 note

As non antag chaplain - had a botanist create android mutation toxin prickly slippery tower cap logs. Then used these to try and turn people into androids and died in the process. Their head was hidden in a toilet cistern which they ahelped about. Wasn't trying to intentionally banbait from their responses.

So you are making the parallel of non-antag, doing something that an antag would do, and their body was left in place that no one would find them after looting their stuff, is acceptable.

Our escalation policy that has been around for about 2 years now is

Escalation Policy
You may begin IC conflicts with another player if it does not excessively interfere with their ability to do their job. While you are allowed to escalate conflicts, if it leads to violence and you have poor IC reasoning for inciting it, you may face administrative action.

Killing a crewmate is a severe response, and requires severe justification to do, such as those in Rule 1's precedents, or Rule 4.

Critically wounded characters must be treated or taken to the medbay by the standing party where reasonable, and taking unnecessary action against a downed player opens you up to reprisal. If you are incapacitated in a fight and treated, or the conflict is otherwise meaningfully broken, you are expected to require an IC reason beyond 'bruised ego' to re-initiate it.

Let's be clear, LRP is more sandbox than MRP, meaning that every person that signs up is technically every role to some degree and the player has full knowledge of every antagonist. The fact that you killed a cuffed person, looted them and then left their body where it was. That is unacceptable escalation, which lead to me, placing that note as a reminder of such. We don't allow security players to do that without some proper investigation. I understand that the round was complete under mess by the actions of that captain and more importantly, skub, but that doesn't give you the right to kill someone as a non-antagonist mainly over power issues. There wasn't much stake for you welding them to death and stealing their belongings, other than the radio calls of KOS all of engineering for pro-skub, and your general annoyance of an unpowered chem machine and botany trays. As I mentioned in the ticket above, you gotta do the legwork to commit to killing a crewmate, cause the action is a serious thing IC.

I'll pass it back to you, I am not convinced you read the rules recently, but I don't mind fixing the note to something slimmer.

[Annihilite111]

Howdy there,

Lets pick up from where we left off in the ticket itself.

► Show Spoiler

Ticket Opened by annihilite
2025-04-18 17:48:32
okay so this is some weird shit. Power's been turned back on in service but the APCs still arent delivering to equipment. Is it bugged?
00:02:53
Reply from iansdoor
2025-04-18 17:51:25
no, power goes in cycles that take charge the station apc down a list. service is very far from power. Anywho, Actually, been meaning to ask why did you kill the CE and leave their body at holodeck?
00:00:41
Reply from annihilite
2025-04-18 17:52:06
because he killed power for the entire station for 20 minutes out of (i assume) sheer malevolence. I've lynched people for being far less of a shithead.
00:01:21
Ticket Opened by annihilite
2025-04-18 17:53:27
oh also the captain had a him on KOS
00:00:17
Reply from iansdoor
2025-04-18 17:53:44
nope, that was just the power being slow to recharge, no one wanted to do SM. HE cut power to that side of the station cause security was sent to them by the captain over skub stuff. Anyways, what was your reason for leaving them there and not making sure they returned to medical or checking if they were an antag? maintaining power is kind of part of their job.
00:01:22
Reply from annihilite
2025-04-18 17:55:06
Well that seems like a good old misunderstanding then. All we on the ground knew is that engineering was throwing a shitfit over SKUB and CE's console cut power. He probably should have made the situation clear when people were yelling at him over comms
00:02:18
Reply from iansdoor
2025-04-18 17:57:24
I feel that, If you do be part of KOS crew, you do have to pay the consquence of such. There was also a take back of the order once they were arrested. So just keep in mind, once you have done the deed, you throw them back into medical or somewhere that they won't get sharded by the chaplain in the future.
00:00:45
Reply from annihilite
2025-04-18 17:58:09
no if you grief that hard you're valid. THat's how it's always been. I have fucking notes for ahelping being left as a head in a toilet after that kind of grief
00:03:01
Reply from iansdoor
2025-04-18 18:01:10
I'll be very honest, I was just gonna leave this as note to reminder, explain to me how your actions that fit in the rule 4 over the misunderstanding you had? The CE was cuffed at the time when you welded them to death.
00:05:54
Reply from annihilite
2025-04-18 18:07:04
Right it's very simple. I was under the impression that the CE had decided to fuck with the station, ostensibly over skub, by disabling our power for no reason (he DID do that and no i dont accept that he needed to disable hydroponics because security was sent to engineering). He was fucking with me and ruining my entire ability to do my job entirely unprompted. This is the exact kind of shit that makes you valid, and i therefore turned his insides into outsides. #Here. Let me get my own notes to illustrate that this is how it works: #"As non antag chaplain - had a botanist create android mutation toxin prickly slippery tower cap logs. Then used these to try and turn people into androids and died in the process. Their head was hidden in a toilet cistern which they ahelped about. Wasn't trying to intentionally banbait from their responses." As you can see i was not aware that my actions of fucking with people excessively made me valid, therefore making the response of beheading my ass and turning me into skib
00:02:13
Ticket Opened by annihilite
2025-04-18 18:09:17
I should add that his actions have, at the time of writing, led to botany being depowered with no way for me to repower it for 50 minutes. Every plan i had for this round went up in smoke
00:00:03
Reply from iansdoor
2025-04-18 18:09:20
Right, and do you consider your actions going too far this time? You left them there to rot and cuffed and power was okay cause someone fixed the issue in engineering, You didn't have to do what you did.
00:01:56
Reply from annihilite
2025-04-18 18:11:16
Read my note. Yes i believe it is okay for me to leave him to rot because i have been noted for complaining that my corpse was left to rot after i did an equivalently griefy thing. Can you point me to where the rules have changed regarding this?
00:20:28
Reply from iansdoor
2025-04-18 18:31:44
Sorry, after thoughts and consider. I think the 2021 note for escalation has been outdated, I'll remind you here with an updated chatter. I am sorry that taking awhile cause the amount of misunderstanding is piling up this skub round.

You may begin IC conflicts with another player if it does not excessively interfere with their ability to do their job. While you are allowed to escalate conflicts, if it leads to violence and you have poor IC reasoning for inciting it, you may face administrative action.

Killing a crewmate is a severe response, and requires severe justification to do, such as those in Rule 1's precedents, or Rule 4.

Critically wounded characters must be treated or taken to the medbay by the standing party where reasonable, and taking unnecessary action against a downed player opens you up to reprisal.
https://wiki.tgstation13.org/Rules
00:01:59
Reply from iansdoor
2025-04-18 18:33:43
Other words, You were the one to finish them off, I get your reasoning but if you are going to act like security or valid hunting, you do have to be subject to proper escalation, which is make sure you think they are antag before leaving them to rot.
00:02:32
Reply from annihilite
2025-04-18 18:36:15
That doesnt take away from the fact that he did something only an antagonist ought to be allowed to do, which still makes him valid i believe. Also you should probably get on his ass for ruining power for unrelated departments as a nonantag then
00:02:12
Reply from iansdoor
2025-04-18 18:38:27
That is his job to cut power. BUT, you can beat his ass for it and get them demoted, you cannot just let them rot for the reason of no power. There is no difference between SMES, wires broken by rats towards whatever job, the list goes on. If they do anything after you beat their ass, you let us know, cause that is bruised ego. This round was a mess by the captain, Don't follow through completely on KOS orders in the beginning over skub issues.
00:00:18
Reply from iansdoor
2025-04-18 18:38:45
is that unreasonable of an ask?
00:01:17
Reply from annihilite
2025-04-18 18:40:02
Oh come on thats bullshit. power wasnt off because of negilgence he literally specifically turned hydroponics power off on the console. It logs everything i saw it. You cant seriously be telling me thats the same thing.
00:01:41
Reply from annihilite
2025-04-18 18:41:43
I know that IC conflict has been curtailed over the years but that is on the condition that you guys step in instead. What do you mean the CE can just fuck with power as a nonantag and you wont do anything???
00:02:25
Reply from iansdoor
2025-04-18 18:44:08
He turned off power on the side of the station. I get how that affects your section, but really. Just make sure you relax on killing folks and get to proper escalation. The orders of KOS over skub and killing a cuffed person, Are you a security officer by that standard? if you aren't then why are you doing those actions?
00:01:31
Reply from annihilite
2025-04-18 18:45:39
Ruining my job is literally against the rules. Rule one literally states that and you havent explained how him being CE magically makes him immune to escalation rules. If he ignores escalation rules i will assume he's an antag
00:01:00
Reply from annihilite
2025-04-18 18:46:39
And why are you talking about stay in your lane rules on LRP?
00:01:53
Reply from iansdoor
2025-04-18 18:48:32
Sure ain't. I am talking about rule 4 and your improper escalation. Their justification to cut power on that side was KOS order from captain and security non-lethally detained them. You went ahead to killed them. I think your actions were over done. Read the rules next time and ahelp to ask questions about a given situation.
00:01:21
Reply from annihilite
2025-04-18 18:49:53
Right. I think that's bullshit and will be making a forum appeal. Go ahead with the note and see you there.
00:00:20
Reply from iansdoor
2025-04-18 18:50:13
Fair enough.
00:06:10
Interaction by iansdoor
2025-04-18 18:56:23
iansdoor/(Vents-Hot-Air) has created a note for Annihilite
As a non-antag botantist in a skub round, was frustated with CE cutting power, to the west side of the catwalkstation, went ahead, after security non-lethally detained the CE, killed a cuffed CE with a welder, leaving their body on the floor, taking their belongings. Escalation rules state that you may start conflict with them, but killing a crewmate is a severe response, and requires severe justification to do and any critically wounded characters must be treated or taken to the medbay by the standing party where reasonable, and taking unnecessary action against a downed player opens you up to reprisal. https://wiki.tgstation13.org/Rules
00:00:13
Reply from iansdoor
2025-04-18 18:56:36
Anything else to add?
00:01:02
Reply from annihilite
2025-04-18 18:57:38
Nothing nice, no.
00:00:15
Reply from iansdoor
2025-04-18 18:57:53
Alrighty, have a nice evening then

Under your understanding of the escalation rules and what you can do after the fact comes from a 2021 note

As non antag chaplain - had a botanist create android mutation toxin prickly slippery tower cap logs. Then used these to try and turn people into androids and died in the process. Their head was hidden in a toilet cistern which they ahelped about. Wasn't trying to intentionally banbait from their responses.

So you are making the parallel of non-antag, doing something that an antag would do, and their body was left in place that no one would find them after looting their stuff, is acceptable.

Our escalation policy that has been around for about 2 years now is

Escalation Policy
You may begin IC conflicts with another player if it does not excessively interfere with their ability to do their job. While you are allowed to escalate conflicts, if it leads to violence and you have poor IC reasoning for inciting it, you may face administrative action.

Killing a crewmate is a severe response, and requires severe justification to do, such as those in Rule 1's precedents, or Rule 4.

Critically wounded characters must be treated or taken to the medbay by the standing party where reasonable, and taking unnecessary action against a downed player opens you up to reprisal. If you are incapacitated in a fight and treated, or the conflict is otherwise meaningfully broken, you are expected to require an IC reason beyond 'bruised ego' to re-initiate it.

Let's be clear, LRP is more sandbox than MRP, meaning that every person that signs up is technically every role to some degree and the player has full knowledge of every antagonist. The fact that you killed a cuffed person, looted them and then left their body where it was. That is unacceptable escalation, which lead to me, placing that note as a reminder of such. We don't allow security players to do that without some proper investigation. I understand that the round was complete under mess by the actions of that captain and more importantly, skub, but that doesn't give you the right to kill someone as a non-antagonist mainly over power issues. There wasn't much stake for you welding them to death and stealing their belongings, other than the radio calls of KOS all of engineering for pro-skub, and your general annoyance of an unpowered chem machine and botany trays. As I mentioned in the ticket above, you gotta do the legwork to commit to killing a crewmate, cause the action is a serious thing IC.

I'll pass it back to you, I am not convinced you read the rules recently, but I don't mind fixing the note to something slimmer.

"Act like an antag get treated like one" is still part of rule 4 as per the security precedents. While the main rule 4 doesn't mention it, the precedents are part of the rules and everything on that page is supposed to be binding. I also do not believe you would have noted a secoff for gunning down and leaving a saboteur the captain had set to KOS, and challenge you to find a single case where that's happened.
Also aren't you guys supposed to ask before you post a player's notes and ahelp logs? You and the only other relevant parties (headmins) have access to them if they're needed. Whatever keep them up, it doesn't matter.
Yes the action of killing a guy is a serious thing IC, sure. Revolting against the captain for some bullshit reason, turning off power to a bunch of angry laborers and getting your head welded for the trouble is also very IC by that standard.

[Timberpoes]

Also aren't you guys supposed to ask before you post a player's notes and ahelp logs? You and the only other relevant parties (headmins) have access to them if they're needed. Whatever keep them up, it doesn't matter.

The ahelp logs can be revealed by either party if they feel it necessary. Past notes and bans can be mentioned where relevant to the admin's decision or where relevant to the processes by which they made their decision.

Our public appeals system is not just for keeping admins accountable to the players they note, but also letting the community as a whole see how and why admins come to decisions. As a general principle, this is why admins can reveal notes or tickets in appeals without asking for the player's permission.

[iansdoor]

"Act like an antag get treated like one" is still part of rule 4 as per the security precedents. While the main rule 4 doesn't mention it, the precedents are part of the rules and everything on that page is supposed to be binding. I also do not believe you would have noted a secoff for gunning down and leaving a saboteur the captain had set to KOS, and challenge you to find a single case where that's happened.

I could pull from my own notes and notes that I have witness, but I can pull from the note and ban appeals here on this forum.

viewtopic.php?p=741923
Here we have an example of security officer lying, and beating a prisoner to death when they had non-lethal means and co-workers.

viewtopic.php?p=722354

Here we have an example of Probable cause to which, a pair of security officer made the leap and assumption that someone was bad, resulted in a death.

viewtopic.php?p=632580#p632580

Here is headmin policy defining rules for security.
The rule 4 gives alot of freedom to antagonist, and non-antagonist as long as you are positively sure of evidence ingame. But, the biggest but Security standards can be applied to anyone acting as security, not just roundstart security officers. Valid hunting or not, you are held accountable to the "security officers" standard, which you don't hurt cuffed prisoners without proper escalation. That CE was cuffed and dragged by the warden and then died by your hands. My question in the ticket still stands "... I get how that affects your section, but really. Just make sure you relax on killing folks and get to proper escalation. The orders of KOS over skub and killing a cuffed person, Are you a security officer by that standard? if you aren't then why are you doing those actions?"

viewtopic.php?p=733336

I'll leave this last bit for you, this happened last year with the same captain and that round's security went excessive with what the captain requested. I am fortunate that the round 251349 you were in, didn't roll that way, yet still equally bad from the crew standpoint.

viewtopic.php?p=733336

Yes the action of killing a guy is a serious thing IC, sure. Revolting against the captain for some bullshit reason, turning off power to a bunch of angry laborers and getting your head welded for the trouble is also very IC by that standard.

If you agree that action of killing someone is serious IC implication, then I wonder why go so far on someone in-game that was dragged, cuffed, and helpless? It would seem like the right choice was to pass them back to security or just demote them yourself.

Since you can't really read my hints here or in the ticket itself, if you read the current escalation policy and understood roughly what is required of you going forward. I don't mind taking off the note, we are here because under this misunderstanding of the what rulezzz seem to be.

[Annihilite111]

Also aren't you guys supposed to ask before you post a player's notes and ahelp logs? You and the only other relevant parties (headmins) have access to them if they're needed. Whatever keep them up, it doesn't matter.

The ahelp logs can be revealed by either party if they feel it necessary. Past notes and bans can be mentioned where relevant to the admin's decision or where relevant to the processes by which they made their decision.

Our public appeals system is not just for keeping admins accountable to the players they note, but also letting the community as a whole see how and why admins come to decisions. As a general principle, this is why admins can reveal notes or tickets in appeals without asking for the player's permission.

I see. I must have misremembered in that case.

"Act like an antag get treated like one" is still part of rule 4 as per the security precedents. While the main rule 4 doesn't mention it, the precedents are part of the rules and everything on that page is supposed to be binding. I also do not believe you would have noted a secoff for gunning down and leaving a saboteur the captain had set to KOS, and challenge you to find a single case where that's happened.

I could pull from my own notes and notes that I have witness, but I can pull from the note and ban appeals here on this forum.

viewtopic.php?p=741923
Here we have an example of security officer lying, and beating a prisoner to death when they had non-lethal means and co-workers.

viewtopic.php?p=722354

Here we have an example of Probable cause to which, a pair of security officer made the leap and assumption that someone was bad, resulted in a death.

viewtopic.php?p=632580#p632580

Here is headmin policy defining rules for security.
The rule 4 gives alot of freedom to antagonist, and non-antagonist as long as you are positively sure of evidence ingame. But, the biggest but Security standards can be applied to anyone acting as security, not just roundstart security officers. Valid hunting or not, you are held accountable to the "security officers" standard, which you don't hurt cuffed prisoners without proper escalation. That CE was cuffed and dragged by the warden and then died by your hands. My question in the ticket still stands "... I get how that affects your section, but really. Just make sure you relax on killing folks and get to proper escalation. The orders of KOS over skub and killing a cuffed person, Are you a security officer by that standard? if you aren't then why are you doing those actions?"

viewtopic.php?p=733336

I'll leave this last bit for you, this happened last year with the same captain and that round's security went excessive with what the captain requested. I am fortunate that the round 251349 you were in, didn't roll that way, yet still equally bad from the crew standpoint.

viewtopic.php?p=733336

Yes the action of killing a guy is a serious thing IC, sure. Revolting against the captain for some bullshit reason, turning off power to a bunch of angry laborers and getting your head welded for the trouble is also very IC by that standard.

If you agree that action of killing someone is serious IC implication, then I wonder why go so far on someone in-game that was dragged, cuffed, and helpless? It would seem like the right choice was to pass them back to security or just demote them yourself.

Since you can't really read my hints here or in the ticket itself, if you read the current escalation policy and understood roughly what is required of you going forward. I don't mind taking off the note, we are here because under this misunderstanding of the what rulezzz seem to be.

You know, having slept on it I think an apology is in order. I've far ruder than I should have been and for what it's worth I'm sorry about that. The majority of my anger wasn't game related and it's not fair for me to take my own issues out on you. Thinking back, the issues I'm having with the rules, not your application of them, and If this is how admins agree it's supposed to be read I'm happy to drop the appeal. I guess amend the note to explain that I have been updated on the new lynching/escalation practices and we can put this behind us. I dont mind keeping it as a reminder of how it's supposed to work now.

[iansdoor]

You know, having slept on it I think an apology is in order. I've far ruder than I should have been and for what it's worth I'm sorry about that. The majority of my anger wasn't game related and it's not fair for me to take my own issues out on you. Thinking back, the issues I'm having with the rules, not your application of them, and If this is how admins agree it's supposed to be read I'm happy to drop the appeal. I guess amend the note to explain that I have been updated on the new lynching/escalation practices and we can put this behind us. I dont mind keeping it as a reminder of how it's supposed to work now.

I get ya, look, we will turn back the hands of time and clean the slate. Now I know that round was ass. So I'll offer you this, I am always interested neat things towards botany. I'll drop the note as long as you are aware of just some amount effort to get a body to medical, this being the condition if they didn't have any contraband on them and they didn't wrong you a first* time. First time is fine, keep it cool. Second time, the gloves are off. I'll throw in a token towards botany funny with the lines of

Had a rough shift, was looking forward to some creative plans, that fell apart. So here is a two-use token for botany related activities, can be chemical synthizer, can be seeds, can be equipment. Must be considered before implementing into the round.

Does this sound like good?

[Annihilite111]

You know, having slept on it I think an apology is in order. I've far ruder than I should have been and for what it's worth I'm sorry about that. The majority of my anger wasn't game related and it's not fair for me to take my own issues out on you. Thinking back, the issues I'm having with the rules, not your application of them, and If this is how admins agree it's supposed to be read I'm happy to drop the appeal. I guess amend the note to explain that I have been updated on the new lynching/escalation practices and we can put this behind us. I dont mind keeping it as a reminder of how it's supposed to work now.

I get ya, look, we will turn back the hands of time and clean the slate. Now I know that round was ass. So I'll offer you this, I am always interested neat things towards botany. I'll drop the note as long as you are aware of just some amount effort to get a body to medical, this being the condition if they didn't have any contraband on them and they didn't wrong you a first* time. First time is fine, keep it cool. Second time, the gloves are off. I'll throw in a token towards botany funny with the lines of

Had a rough shift, was looking forward to some creative plans, that fell apart. So here is a two-use token for botany related activities, can be chemical synthizer, can be seeds, can be equipment. Must be considered before implementing into the round.

Does this sound like good?

Sounds good. Very kind of you to include the little token too. I'll keep it in mind going forward.

[iansdoor]

Sweet deal, I'll lock this up and I hope to see ya around. have a good week.