Lets talk about departments

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Capsandi
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Lets talk about departments

Post by Capsandi » #769798

I write to relieve writers block in my philosophical works
What is the goal of departments? What gameplay purpose does stratifying jobs among them complete? What image or narrative qualities should be found in each, should be unique to each?
I feel that departments have withered in both gameplay and experiential presence these past years. Observing any high population LRP round will show that most department communication channels are radio silent(idk bout mrp).
This issue has knock on effects for many gameplay loops which have been delegated to departmental content and improving departmental presence may alleviate some of the dysfunction of them.
What is a department?
The following is what a department is. Increasing any of the attributes listed will increase the presence of the department.
  • A series of areas in the station map gated by access restrictions or other means of separating department members from non-members. This can be as simple as a long detour which disincentivizes non-members from entering department areas as is the case for cargo and its soft control over lavaland. A player playing shaft miner feels that lavaland is cargo's workplace despite there being no access restriction on public mining.
  • A series of jobs which are grouped together under a department. Players who are in these roles should be exposed to their fellow department members more often, possibly serving to create a unique departmental trust which may complicate otherwise trivial interactions with the antagonist narrative core of the game.
  • The job design infers; A series of expectations or responsibilities had by other players as to the actions taken by a player during the course of the round. A department is similarly expected to complete certain tasks while it is functioning. The less expectations a department has, the less presence it holds as its function becomes irrelevant
  • Resources which a department is provided and of which its members feel an obligation to protect. These are both tangible game resources and intangible ideas such as the responsibilities above(example: religious authority, command authority, the engine, the disk)
  • A collective interest of its members which leads to evaluations of gameplay and social decisions which are divorced from non-members. The more similar two department's interests are, the less of a presence each holds
What does departmental presence help in general?
  • Our infiltration gameplay relies on the presence of restricted areas on the station map. If a department's members are more indifferent to trespassing, the more our infiltration gameplay is boiled down to a series of tool interactions.
  • Our stealth antagonist gameplay is enriched by a concern for one's co-worker's perspective of the stealth antagonist.
  • Our job content transcends its popular perception of mindless repetition of bland gameplay by being a team exercise in mindless repetition of bland gameplay advocating for one's departmental needs.
  • Our non-stealth antags, blob and nukies, and something else idk, are enriched by the change in dynamics between departments as crew see themselves as a station united.
  • There exists an idea of Space Station 13 in every player's mind. A station not of tiles and valids, but a station of people, of archetypes. The tyrant security officers, the territorial research director, the quarter master ever so frustrated with his dead mining team. The scientist hidden away deep within his lab, every tile from the door pulling his mind towards the possibility of his solitary fortress being the perfect homicide scene. The bureaucratic HOP. The engineering team working on some stupid station extension. These are the images you download byond to see These are the images which make SS13 more than air simulation amongus, more than a story of NT vs S, which make it more than just a referential thing devoid of any identity of its own, but the images are faded, only the clumsy clown and kleptomaniac assistant accompany us now, the station is empty, filled only with players who want the same things you do, who have the same relation with every other player.
In my next post i will be reviewing each department and offering solutions to the problematic ones.
Timonk wrote:
Wesoda25 wrote:Genuinely think they should be blacklisted.
You have clearly never seen his dick
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Re: Lets talk about departments

Post by Capsandi » #769909

well i got over my writers block so pretend I saltposted about science and engineering here
Timonk wrote:
Wesoda25 wrote:Genuinely think they should be blacklisted.
You have clearly never seen his dick
Lower your tone with me if your tracked play time doesn't look like this:
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Flatulent wrote:of course you can change religion doing it while islamic however makes you lose your head from happiness
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Re: Lets talk about departments

Post by mrmelbert » #769990

You didn't offer any solutions though
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Re: Lets talk about departments

Post by TheFinalPotato » #770080

I wanted to read the second post you motherfucker
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Re: Lets talk about departments

Post by Capsandi » #772479

Well I wrote of philosophies but then those writings illuminated even better reasonings which I cannot write of due to more block, thus a list:

Alright lets define some terms to make this easier.
Territory Despondency: A response from a player in a department to a high frequency of departmental incursion relative to their ability to respond to it(sec response included). Players will stop concerning themselves with intrusions when they realize they aren't encouraged to care.
Asset Despondency: A response from a player in a department to a high frequency of theft relative to their ability to respond to it. Players will stop concerning themselves with intrusions when they realize they aren't encouraged to care.
 
Silicons
A+
+Turns out making it against the rules to ignore your superior(AI, lawset) makes for a tight knit department
+Silicons should find themselves conflicting with security and command if those departments ignore silicon laws
Proposal: None, silipol scares me

Medical
A-
+Triage medical gameplay encourages triage coordination causes intradepartmental cooperation
+Surgery design namely carrying around surgery trays ect. forces the department to monitor surgery toolsets
+Surgery tools and formaldehyde give medical a disproportionate interest in the station's silver supply
+Medical equipment and machinery are useful and immobile enough that the structural state of medbay is of concern to medbay personnel.
+Medical players are likely to call security immediately before violent intervention
-Paramedic has obvious access issues symptomatic in the application of interdepartmental access outside of emergency situations. Causes extradepartmental territory despondency
Proposal: Deter overuse of emergency access through side effect ie. have paramedic IDs spew emergency paint thinner on doors which makes them look like shit, causes potential for retribution

Security
B
+Combat gameplay encourages validhunting coordination causes intradepartmental cooperation
+Maps are quite consistent with painting security with secure walls making intrusions less frequent
+Common role comprehension causes most security players to persecute intrusions
-Departmental security posts are usually afterthoughts in maps and rarely reward officers for posting themselves there instead of remembering they have free cargo access. Causes extradepartmental territory despondency when the officer you haven't seen all shift lets 5 greyshits in to pinch your shit.
Proposal: Go with goof or go with god. Double down on officers being the hand of their departments or have security start the shift together in their own department to allow the accumulation of intradepartmental rapport.
-A series of otherwise well implicating balance changes have caused the security equipment room what with the lockers to be of greater hazard than the big room with guns
Proposal: Allow some possibility for an antagonistic crewman to carry the entire armory in their bag. No cinematic armory raids without the carrot, not in recent years.
Cargo
B-
+Greed is good. Technicians are adequately encouraged to pursue economic gains. Cargo is disproportionately interested in the station's balance sheet.
-Cargo has no ability to protect the piggybank from the captain buying some dumbfuck emergency shuttle, leading to asset despondency.
Proposal: Require some sort of signoff by cargo for shuttle purchases. Gives some leverage to QM if present, interdepartmental diplomacy possibilities when the QM won't sign off for nothin.
-Cargo doesn't do much to protect the vault what holds everything they're supposed to have worked for. If someone's robbing the vault they should be disposing of the techies before security shows up, as a warmup.
Proposal: Slap an alarm bell to the techie headset, drowns out all radio chatter when the bank machine is draining. Rub their faces in shit(via ludonarratively harmonic elements) if the balance drops to 0.
=Bitrunners and boulder mining idk.
-Cargobay proper is a public hallway on metastation as of jan2025 delta and box do cargo much better.
Service & Command
C+
+Alright so service sucks by all the metrics I've spelled out, but its only a department in a mechanical sense so I'm not failing it.
Lets call these pseudodepartments, cause they really don't work like the main ones don't work
Engineering
F
- The majority of engineers don't feel responsible for the power net
Proposal: Unfuck the powernet, make it fun to play with(impossible)
+ They at least set up the engine.
- Engineers invariably fuckoff from engineering forever once the engine is set up, unheard of is an engineer who checks the SM regularly. If engineering explodes but the engine is fine nobody gives a shit
Proposal: Oops! The engine doesn't need any input byond initialization! Turn the SM into an atmos bauble and just design an engine from scratch bro.
- Engineers are so disinterested by engineering gameplay that they hand off materials, modsuits, insuls, the works just so they have an excuse not to engage with it.
Proposal: May have just been an over devaluation due to chunky gloves. Nerf greybull one vending machine entirely invalidates even asking engineering for gloves. Buff engi mods even more idk how.
Glove economy quick tip: Glove utility outside of yellow is high enough now that you can consider adding more shock sources for ambient hazard purposes.
+Atmos techs care about atmospherics incursions and are more likely than other roles to call security immediately before violent intervention.
-Atmos techs might put out fires but hate doing it and would rather verify stoichiometric coefficients of pluoxium are being produced by some novel reaction pathway.
Proposal: Its 2 AM just let me complain about the science doors already
Proposal: Running over uncovered pipe manifolds like what's found in maintenance on maps that dont suck causes anyone not wearing workboots to trip and eat shit.
Science
F-
--Science main hallway is a public hallway, the front doors are FUCKED and I KNOW YOUR READING THIS SAN, I KNOW YOU ARE AND I WANT MAINTENANCE DOORS TO BE UNFUCKED TOO. THE ISSUE IS BEYOND YOUR COMPREHENSION JUST TRUST ME ON THIS YOU OWE ME FOR THAT FIRE ALARM SFX EVERYONE GIVES YOU THE CREDIT FOR THAT BUT ITS NO PROBLEM IF YOU JUST UNFUCK THE DOORS SAN.
+Robotics is a material sink which will consume the entire station's silo if left unchecked. This is good design actually because it encourages interdepartmental conflict.
- Science has nothing of value and nothing worth protecting. Science players dont care about science, the AI is a way better scientist than science players. Why bother pretending its anything more?
Proposal: Fix the doors.

TLDR FIX SCI DOORS INTERDEPARTMENTAL COOPERATION BAD ACTUALLY :twisted:
So yea this isn't as impartial as it started out. its 2:20 here so I'll elaborate when my writers block returns.
Timonk wrote:
Wesoda25 wrote:Genuinely think they should be blacklisted.
You have clearly never seen his dick
Lower your tone with me if your tracked play time doesn't look like this:
Image
Flatulent wrote:of course you can change religion doing it while islamic however makes you lose your head from happiness
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Cobby
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Re: Lets talk about departments

Post by Cobby » #772576

-Paramedic has obvious access issues symptomatic in the application of interdepartmental access outside of emergency situations. Causes extradepartmental territory despondency
Is this really a negative? Is it bad that you have to ask the AI or someone from the department to be let into an area?

Paramedic is innately at odds with the access component of the game, but I think part of that job includes the social aspect and rolling on charisma to get into an area to save someone. You wouldnt want them to be optimal assassination targets compared to the captain/hop with their capacity to get around many parts of the station.
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Re: Lets talk about departments

Post by Jacquerel » #772577

I think they meant it the other way around, that the paramedic has too much automatic access to departments and it erodes people's willingness to be territorial about people coming into their offices.
This is a preventative Forum User message to try and stop a perceived issue escalating before it ever really starts, and does not prevent the headmins from taking a different opinion and deleting my post. No formal action is being taken. No reply to this post is necessary. If you want to discuss the matter further, use forum PMs with me, but I have nothing else to say so I wouldn't waste the time.
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Re: Lets talk about departments

Post by Cobby » #772584

oh, in which case truth nuke
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Re: Lets talk about departments

Post by NecromancerAnne » #772593

I brought this up in the past but I didn't have a good solution for it. Alternatives seemed in short supply.

Metek had two attempts to create an infrastructure that could enable restricting paramedics, but unfortunately I believe he just ended up not having the time given he now maintains WoD13.

I invite anyone else to come attempt to resolve the problem. For what it is worth, there are no mapping solutions; if a role is morphing the landscape of how we do maps because it has too much access, the problem is with the role, not the maps. Mappers have made it quite clear they don't want the maps to change to restrict paramedics. But there is an open interest to restrict paramedics, but not in a way they have no options to get into departments in an emergency. The PR's linked have a few ideas on what you could do.

I'll be honest, I'll give it half a year and then I'll merge without looking a PR that axes their access liberties.
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Re: Lets talk about departments

Post by Cobby » #772614

To me paramedics have no business having access to begin with, it should be "earned" through socializing or at the very least be built through rapport with the heads of each department versus just getting basic access everywhere. Will it make the job harder? Sure. It doesnt mean theyre owed access.

Access to these basic areas as a game-provided starter also runs into the issue administratively. Is a paramedic somewhere where he shouldnt be despite the game providing him access to this place from the getgo? Which doors are "allowable all the time" versus "only allowable when getting a body" for things like trespass?

Im perfectly fine taking away their base access into other departments as a given
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Re: Lets talk about departments

Post by RaveRadbury » #772618

Cobby wrote: Thu Feb 27, 2025 3:26 pm To me paramedics have no business having access to begin with, it should be "earned" through socializing or at the very least be built through rapport with the heads of each department versus just getting basic access everywhere. Will it make the job harder? Sure. It doesnt mean theyre owed access.

Access to these basic areas as a game-provided starter also runs into the issue administratively. Is a paramedic somewhere where he shouldnt be despite the game providing him access to this place from the getgo? Which doors are "allowable all the time" versus "only allowable when getting a body" for things like trespass?

Im perfectly fine taking away their base access into other departments as a given
Paramedics come off as a "scout" variant of medbay. At one point this made me consider how engie upgrading (running around with the BRPED) is like a scout variant of engineering. I think the idea of departments having scout classes with lobby access is cool on paper.
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Re: Lets talk about departments

Post by TheFinalPotato » #772688

I am disappointed you did not discuss janitor (the best role) but thank you! I agree bout airlocks, might make a pr bout that sometime and see if I can convince the map/maintainers to see the light of being locked in rooms. Or you could do it and I'd have backup in that. Your underlying analysis re: access and player investment in it tracks too.
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Re: Lets talk about departments

Post by WineAllWine » #773324

For what it's worth, AI mains and CMO mains are the people I look to admin. Those roles progress into admin very well
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Re: Lets talk about departments

Post by SpaceInaba » #773406

cargo and engineering need roundstart beartraps and landmines to keep the tide out
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Re: Lets talk about departments

Post by Itseasytosee2me » #773408

Cargo has always been a bit strange because its bread and butter job content relies on the whims of other players. Its got a lot of potential, but I think people are hesitant to depend upon cargotechs because they might be unreliable and end up having their package sit in cargo all round. That leads to a negative feedback loop where less people use cargo which means cargotechs are less focused on the order and delivery part of cargo which makes them less reliable and so on.
That and there is not many circumstances in which cargo is guaranteed to be of importance. Mind shields on rev rounds and guns with nukies are two examples I can think of, but they are so pressing that you tend to see another head of staff or security commander the operation.
Medbay is always important and doctors can always expect to have some loser to patch up, in contrast.
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Re: Lets talk about departments

Post by Deathrobotpunch1 » #773415

NecromancerAnne wrote: Thu Feb 27, 2025 9:43 am I brought this up in the past but I didn't have a good solution for it. Alternatives seemed in short supply.

I invite anyone else to come attempt to resolve the problem. For what it is worth, there are no mapping solutions; if a role is morphing the landscape of how we do maps because it has too much access, the problem is with the role, not the maps. Mappers have made it quite clear they don't want the maps to change to restrict paramedics. But there is an open interest to restrict paramedics, but not in a way they have no options to get into departments in an emergency. The PR's linked have a few ideas on what you could do.

I'll be honest, I'll give it half a year and then I'll merge without looking a PR that axes their access liberties.
You could always make visitation consoles outside every department.

this should allow you to select an expiry time of either 5 or 10 minutes and requires you to input a reason for visitation. the AI, department head or captain should be able to approve access requests through a PDA notification or app, paramedics should have a more noticeable notification.

the console should then print a visitation slip that you attach to your ID which allows you access to a department until your slip expires which should audibly and visibly notify the visitor to leave. once notified there should be a grace period which allows you to leave before your access is revoked
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Re: Lets talk about departments

Post by FantasticFwoosh » #775007

Good plan, wouldn't work. Too much hassle, and implies that some departments are at least restricted or secret so would carry over trespassing charges already.

Just scan your PDA once on console to pop a message to comms that you are waiting at the door to come in, so they can magdump a syndicate revolver in your face from the windowless entrance. Just a simple check in-check out time.

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Re: Lets talk about departments

Post by Cobby » #775112

ts got a lot of potential, but I think people are hesitant to depend upon cargotechs because they might be unreliable and end up having their package sit in cargo all round.
It's interesting because every other department that does this (medical, engineering, science although thats just upgrades) has no qualms with telling you to cope but for cargo it seems a bit harder to get buy in for.

Maybe its because there's not really a "Cargo" maintainer in the same vein as I can point to medical or engineering ones. We have arcane who is well versed in economy, but I think cargo is only a portion of that and doesnt reflect him being a cargo maintainer.

Another point is cargo is supposed to be the newbie not-assistant job, so I guess by nature its built in to have less importance. Maybe that should be changed :twisted:
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