[Rex9001] Behalf of Sk1wass3r - Hey Apple

[Chimpston]

When and where this incident occurred: Terry
Byond account and character name: Sk1wass3r/Phoebe Mehlmotte and Chimpston/Gay Johnson
Admin: Rex9001
Detailed Summary: Sk1wass3r and I made a painting together of the Annoying Orange titled "BOOOOOOOORED" and Rex9001 deleted the painting without notice. Sk1wass3r spoke to Rex via ahelp and was told to take it to the complaints for an Head Admin response.
The logs as shown:

► Show Spoiler

People had their fun with the painting for a small amount of rounds then moved on. This feels all very over exaggerated. Who knew the Annoying Orange could be this annoying. This felt pretty annoying too, we do not need another Alexandria. ;^[ SIIIGGH


Pickle Rick paintings are ahelped in 2020. Annoying Orange is the new. History repeats itself.

[Vekter]

We've historically been allowed to delete paintings that are low effort references to OOC memes. Paintings should generally be at least somewhat original and not just OOC in IC.

[Chimpston]

You're not doing a very good job at it then, if you actually took at what is left in the galleries of all the servers. A good chunk of the library thrives on references to OOC media. How rude of you to discredit the life's work of Dane Boe! We spent effort making this!

[TheRex9001]

Hey, I decided to delete the painting because its use was getting excessive, its telling that this removal was seen at roundstart because someone ran to print one instantly. I had seen this type of thing play out before with the soyjack paintings before it and that had ended in notes, so instead of that I chose to just delete the annoying orange painting. As Vektor says we're allowed to delete meme paintings, its just not often that they're used excessively enough to warrant intervention in this case though I believe its use had gotten to that point. Lastly, I am not sure you are allowed to make a complaint on behalf of someone else? But that might just be for the headmins to decide.

[Timberpoes]

Idgaf about admins deleting OOC meme reference paintings.

Make the smallest bit of effort to transform it into an in-universe representation such that even a single admin feels like arguing it should be allowed to remain.

Plus, we have annoying orange at home. He's right here in our community with a variety of interesting avatars over the years that you can take inspiration from.

Or just stop using this stale meme entirely. That works too. Also less likely to end up with someone being treated like they sipped a bit too much sussy baka juice and now they're being thrown out of an airlock.

That's just my take on it though.

[Chimpston]

Hey, I decided to delete the painting because its use was getting excessive, its telling that this removal was seen at roundstart because someone ran to print one instantly. I had seen this type of thing play out before with the soyjack paintings before it and that had ended in notes, so instead of that I chose to just delete the annoying orange painting. As Vektor says we're allowed to delete meme paintings, its just not often that they're used excessively enough to warrant intervention in this case though I believe its use had gotten to that point. Lastly, I am not sure you are allowed to make a complaint on behalf of someone else? But that might just be for the headmins to decide.

I'm well aware of your thoughts on the matter already. I posted the logs. I don't see a reason why I shouldn't make an appeal since we made it together.

[TheRex9001]

Hey, I decided to delete the painting because its use was getting excessive, its telling that this removal was seen at roundstart because someone ran to print one instantly. I had seen this type of thing play out before with the soyjack paintings before it and that had ended in notes, so instead of that I chose to just delete the annoying orange painting. As Vektor says we're allowed to delete meme paintings, its just not often that they're used excessively enough to warrant intervention in this case though I believe its use had gotten to that point. Lastly, I am not sure you are allowed to make a complaint on behalf of someone else? But that might just be for the headmins to decide.

I'm well aware of your thoughts on the matter already. I posted the logs. I don't see a reason why I shouldn't make an appeal since we made it together.

Alright. I’ll just leave this to the headmins then if you’re standing behind the stance of sk1.

[Chimpston]

Idgaf about admins deleting OOC meme reference paintings.

Make the smallest bit of effort to transform it into an in-universe representation such that even a single admin feels like arguing it should be allowed to remain.

Plus, we have annoying orange at home. He's right here in our community with a variety of interesting avatars over the years that you can take inspiration from.

Or just stop using this stale meme entirely. That works too. Also less likely to end up with someone being treated like they sipped a bit too much sussy baka juice and now they're being thrown out of an airlock.

That's just my take on it though.

I feel like this painting in particular is being nitpicked real hard compared to all the other paintings that are left in the database that are based on internet media or real human beings. Strangely enough, there are paintings of former presidents that committed genocide (Obama) over at Manuel. People had their fun with the silly orange painting and moved on, it simmered down. I don't see how this is any different to admins logging onto Terry and spawning compressed PNGs of "snoys" mobs over the course of multiple rounds. You know, the emoji in the... TG discord?

Plus, we have annoying orange at home. He's right here in our community with a variety of interesting avatars over the years that you can take inspiration from.

I thought community/player references are generally frowned upon on? (asides from statics in the library) :( There is a numerous amount of paintings across all the servers, like I said, just based on OOC media that don't require such changes.

[Or just stop using this stale meme entirely. That works too.

It's okay if you don't like it. Everyone has their preferences.

Also less likely to end up with someone being treated like they sipped a bit too much sussy baka juice and now they're being thrown out of an airlock.

?

[dendydoom]

fwiw, since my beloved was mentioned here outside of a meme capacity, snoy became a meme because people liked it rather than people liking it because it's a meme.

it was always intentioned to be a cute and ugly IC creature that people would adopt. it has its own lore which i have embarrassingly spent time on. it is a species of creature, not just one unique character.

i have no control over how other admins use it, but if they are using it in an inappropriate meme capacity, i hope they pause and think about the implications of that and its impact on the RP environment.

i used the catsnail sprite because im not an artist and my attempts to recreate it in a more ss13 style all failed miserably and didn't capture the original essence of what made the original a busakawa little thing. there is something in its eyes. its demeanor. it's perfect.

i have had to defend my beloved little oddity against criticism quite a few times so the frustration of your situation is not lost on me, despite the differences that i feel are important.

[Chimpston]

?

[Timberpoes]

We don't have a dedicated team to curating the library or paintings in general. However, that doesn't mean an individual admin can't decide that your individual pricegáhrbáhgeless work of art is infact a derivative load of gáhrbáhge and delete it. The key being how much attention you bring to your pricelessly worthless piece of gáhrbáhge. I'm fairly sure there aren't Manuel players dragging Obama paintings around and screaming "GET DOWN MR PRESIDENT" every time someone walks by with a weapon, which would very quickly run dry.

Admins are built different and have a broader pass to do or permit OOC memery than players do in the spirit of their partial role as DMs. As a wonderful maintainer pointed out in our admin channels; "if it wasn't Snoy it would be touhou_fumos.dmi" - that's one of the wonderful benefits of being an admin. Of course that comes with increased responsibility - when players copy admins over-using OOC memery, the admin gets in trouble far more than the player would. Monkey see, monkey do and all that.

But I don't see admins using annoying orange memes. And I don't hear of admins using them. And nobody has spoken to me of admins using them. Soooo, that one's a swing and a miss for me. And feedback on it would better be served in individual admin feedback threads more than complaints unless it was truly excessive.

The prohibition on community/player references is a restriction on adding them within the codebase. It has nothing to do with us.

And a key difference between you and I is that for the next ~4 months my preferences influence things like how the admin team approach players referencing memes ICly or when the admin team may consider a meme stale and/or overdone and/or ready to be retired. Your preferences do not.

And my preference is that the admin team have the authoritah to handle stuff like this with a broad dose of individual discretion as long as the admin isn't operating in bad faith or deleting paintings that fall within the spirit of actual SS13 art. Because it's all just skirting the lines of NRP and OOC in IC in a way that I care not to argue the minutia of detail over.

[TheRex9001]

I will just point out here, I haven't run a snoy event, other admins can do as they wish because I do not control them, I am not a headmin.

[Chimpston]

We don't have a dedicated team to curating the library or paintings in general. However, that doesn't mean an individual admin can't decide that your individual pricegáhrbáhgeless work of art is infact a derivative load of gáhrbáhge and delete it. The key being how much attention you bring to your pricelessly worthless piece of gáhrbáhge. I'm fairly sure there aren't Manuel players dragging Obama paintings around and screaming "GET DOWN MR PRESIDENT" every time someone walks by with a weapon, which would very quickly run dry.

Admins are built different and have a broader pass to do or permit OOC memery than players do in the spirit of their partial role as DMs. As a wonderful maintainer pointed out in our admin channels; "if it wasn't Snoy it would be touhou_fumos.dmi" - that's one of the wonderful benefits of being an admin. Of course that comes with increased responsibility - when players copy admins over-using OOC memery, the admin gets in trouble far more than the player would. Monkey see, monkey do and all that.

But I don't see admins using annoying orange memes. And I don't hear of admins using them. And nobody has spoken to me of admins using them. Soooo, that one's a swing and a miss for me. And feedback on it would better be served in individual admin feedback threads more than complaints unless it was truly excessive.

The prohibition on community/player references is a restriction on adding them within the codebase. It has nothing to do with us.

And a key difference between you and I is that for the next ~4 months my preferences influence things like how the admin team approach players referencing memes ICly or when the admin team may consider a meme stale and/or overdone and/or ready to be retired. Your preferences do not.

And my preference is that the admin team have the authoritah to handle stuff like this with a broad dose of individual discretion as long as the admin isn't operating in bad faith or deleting paintings that fall within the spirit of actual SS13 art. Because it's all just skirting the lines of NRP and OOC in IC in a way that I care not to argue the minutia of detail over.

Dat is your preverenfe and iz okay. I was merely peeved that a painting we created without any sort of assistance was silently removed in less than 48 hours of its existence. There are no clouds to shake fists at, but the annoying orange can do. We are jumping through far too many loops and hurdles, and all I wish is to at least be informed if a painting is considered "OOC IC" content next time and if it is under the grounds of removal.

[TheRex9001]

I had no idea it was created without any sort of assistance because it had JPEG artifacts on it. I can inform you before deleting your painting though (assuming you are online) and going forward I will do that, its my bad, I should've looked at the authors before hand. As I said this painting was really an edge case, this isnt very common. Really though I would just encourage you to try to make your JPEGs more IC if you want to use them as such, like you could have made one of the unique botany fruits or come up with some space fruit of your own to use, this just didnt even have the thinnest veil of being IC to me.

[Chimpston]

I had no idea it was created without any sort of assistance because it had JPEG artifacts on it. I can inform you before deleting your painting though (assuming you are online) and going forward I will do that, its my bad, I should've looked at the authors before hand. As I said this painting was really an edge case, this isnt very common. Really though I would just encourage you to try to make your JPEGs more IC if you want to use them as such, like you could have made one of the unique botany fruits or come up with some space fruit of your own to use, this just didnt even have the thinnest veil of being IC to me.

It's a little something called dithering and anti-aliasing. I think the idea of having some sort of IC background to silly paintings in LRP servers is a bit odd given the amount of paintings were blatantly OOC in the past, but I don't think we're getting anywhere with that argument.

[TheRex9001]

Yep, alright. I don't think I have anything to say here then.

[Chimpston]

That's okay. I would also like to mention that I have noticed that my recently published painting of this irritating orange I have painted myself was removed soon after it was published. I was a botanist smashing my head against walls repeatedly, naturally. As I stood aside my tray full of oranges, filled with left-for-zed on autogrow. The harvest had an interesting assortment of oranges, including hyper-dimensional oranges and... this newly discovered mutation, there was something with it. It pissed me off greatly, that damned expression. I had to paint this to make sure that I wasn't losing my mind. Any idea as to who could have done such?

[TheRex9001]

That's okay. I would also like to mention that I have noticed that my recently published painting of this irritating orange I have painted myself was removed soon after it was published. I was a botanist smashing my head against walls repeatedly, naturally. As I stood aside my tray full of oranges, filled with left-for-zed on autogrow. The harvest had an interesting assortment of oranges, including hyper-dimensional oranges and... this newly discovered mutation, there was something with it. It pissed me off greatly, that damned expression. I had to paint this to make sure that I wasn't losing my mind. Any idea as to who could have done such?

I'm not sure if you are trolling or if this is something serious but I did not delete that painting, I wasnt even aware you made a new one.

[Chimpston]

I'm not accusing you of removing it, I just don't know where else I can ask since it's related, and the peanut thread is abysmal.

[TheRex9001]

I'm not accusing you of removing it, I just don't know where else I can ask since it's related, and the peanut thread is abysmal.

Yeah alright I just wasnt sure and wanted to make that clear, I've gone ahead and asked in bus. I'm not sure when you'll get a response though

[Timberpoes]

Lol

[Sk1Wass3r]

Lol

3. All posts by admins in FNR should be meaningful and contribute to the discussion.

[Scriptis]

Timberpoes has been demoted to Assistant Executive Head Admin for his lapse in judgement.

I would also like to state for the record that the Irritating Citrus painting is blessed and made me giggle and I will investigate re-adding it to Terry this afternoon

edit: I will not make any further judgements about admin conduct or OOC in IC behavior, I just want that painting framed in my office

[Timberpoes]

Timberpoes has been demoted to Assistant Executive Head Admin for his lapse in judgement.

I would also like to state for the record that the Irritating Citrus painting is blessed and made me giggle and I will investigate re-adding it to Terry this afternoon

edit: I will not make any further judgements about admin conduct or OOC in IC behavior, I just want that painting framed in my office

Lol

edit(scriptis): User was banned from the snack bar for this post.

edit(Timberpoes):

!	Message from: Scriptis (Definitely Not Timberpoes)
	I made the warning look more official and locked editing on the post even though I'm pretty sure I can edit it anyway. Lol  !  Message from: Scriptis User was banned from using the shift key on his keyboard for this warning.

[Timberpoes]

Also to clarify, when the deletion of your latest work of art was highlighted in adminbus Scriptis did a grep or something of the Terry logs to find out who deleted it and when.

For context, stuff like books just get flagged with a "deleted" tag in the database - as they're stored in the database. They're not actually deleted. There are reasons for not deleting stuff that may or may not be public, but it's more than a simple design/implementation choice. So book deletions aren't a problem cuz they can be trivially undone if needed.

Paintings however are stored as image files on disk. In that respect, they do actually get deleted. Or at least as deleted as the operating system's file system does. Which ironically may just be flipping a "deleted, overwrite me at your will" bitflag. So maybe it can be recovered if it wasn't overwritten. I'm sure that's what Scriptis will look into, if there doesn't exist a backup of it.

In a classic +1 for admins shooting themselves in both feet, this also sparked a discussion about ways to make painting deletion less permanent so that deletions can be reversed. Which probably means there'll be more challenges to painting deletion and more work for admins. C'est la vie, we do it for free.

If painting deletion becomes a problem, we (as in the headmin team as a collective) have lots of options. From the nuclear deadminning; to the mid-tier write up painting deletion policy; to the preferred Headmin ostrich procedure.

[GamerAndYeahMick]

I pretty much agree with Timber when he says he doesn't care about what meme paintings get deleted especially when they can tangibly be pointed to as a source for OOC in IC, But I felt I should address common argumentation used against such deletions

1) Admins and inserting OOC shit into the Round and hypocrisy - Yes, it is hypocritical if you do not like hierarchies and classes of people with more rights or leadership. But the simple truth of the matter of how something becomes OOC or not is based on how it becomes manifest in the SS13 universe, two people can make something exist inside the SS13 universe (Admins through admin fuckery temporarily and contributors if the maintainers merge their PR). on a side note not all instances of admin fuckery doesn't cross some sort of OOC in IC line, but it is genuinely true that admin fuckery inserting stuff into the game temporarily also makes that thing an IC thing to talk about and reference temporarily.

2) This seems like boring old admins being boring old admins - Yes. It is necessary to kill what is funny to players sometimes as someone in the janitorial shadow government elitist class because it will get done to death and make the rounds continuously filled with boring OOC in IC meme references until people get tired and move on to the next one killing any semblance of muh immershun.

3) The subjective nature of art - What can be considered art and what can be considered good/funny/beautiful can be said to be subjective on the level of human opinion and what we think but beauty and goodness is objective and the annoying orange is not objectively good or beautiful.

All that is left really is for dramazing to chime in here, but it's safe to say that at least 2/3 headmins do not want to uphold the complaint.

[Timberpoes]

(I considered it amicably resolved at this post and have basically just been shitposting since)

[Chimpston]

I pretty much agree with Timber when he says he doesn't care about what meme paintings get deleted especially when they can tangibly be pointed to as a source for OOC in IC, But I felt I should address common argumentation used against such deletions

1) Admins and inserting OOC shit into the Round and hypocrisy - Yes, it is hypocritical if you do not like hierarchies and classes of people with more rights or leadership. But the simple truth of the matter of how something becomes OOC or not is based on how it becomes manifest in the SS13 universe, two people can make something exist inside the SS13 universe (Admins through admin fuckery temporarily and contributors if the maintainers merge their PR). on a side note not all instances of admin fuckery doesn't cross some sort of OOC in IC line, but it is genuinely true that admin fuckery inserting stuff into the game temporarily also makes that thing an IC thing to talk about and reference temporarily.

2) This seems like boring old admins being boring old admins - Yes. It is necessary to kill what is funny to players sometimes as someone in the janitorial shadow government elitist class because it will get done to death and make the rounds continuously filled with boring OOC in IC meme references until people get tired and move on to the next one killing any semblance of muh immershun.

3) The subjective nature of art - What can be considered art and what can be considered good/funny/beautiful can be said to be subjective on the level of human opinion and what we think but beauty and goodness is objective and the annoying orange is not objectively good or beautiful.

All that is left really is for dramazing to chime in here, but it's safe to say that at least 2/3 headmins do not want to uphold the complaint.

What are your thoughts on Peter Griffin?

[Chimpston]

(I considered it amicably resolved at this post and have basically just been shitposting since)

I figured the same between Sk1, Rex, and I, but I'm still curious to know as to who actually deleted the new painting previously. Some of my questions have been left unanswered. P:

[Timberpoes]

It was Kinnebian, he thought it was just a continuation of the same paintings already deleted, so he deleted it too.

It has already been discussed in the admin channels though, so it's not worth building a house in your head about it. He wouldn't pay the rent.

[Chimpston]

It was Kinnebian, he thought it was just a continuation of the same paintings already deleted, so he deleted it too. It has already been discussed in the admin channels though,

That's all I needed to hear, I would've appreciated knowing that.

...so it's not worth building a house in your head about it. He wouldn't pay the rent.

Likewise. :)