[Bmon] Kinking - banned for (NOT) metagaming

[sylviavalentijn]

BYOND account: Kinking

Ban/note type (Check what applies):
(x) - Server Ban
() - Note
() - Forum Ban
() - Discord Ban
Ban/note length: Perma
Ban/note reason:

Time ban was placed: 2024-07-17
Server you were playing on when banned: i went to bed
Round ID in which ban was placed: 232252

Why are you making this appeal?(Check what applies):
(x) - The ban/note is factually incorrect
() - The ban/note is not against the rules
() - The ban/note needs modification
(x) - The ban was unjustifiably harsh
() - I was permabanned and I want another chance

Why should this appeal be accepted?:

I never broke rule 2. ("2. Do not use information gained outside of in-character means.") i didn't do that. If you want to rewrite that rule to be >Don't communicate with other people playing the game in any way,then this would be a valid ban. But the rule explicitly states it's about exchanging information. What information did we exchange? Let's have a look.

I was talking to someone else in the VC before Lenald joined; then joined the round to check the manifest, and then started streaming it while playing. (which they know is against the rules and said they didn't care).

I didn't click on the stream. I'm perma banned from the game for not having left a private VC. You can ask Maxipat who was in the call if i was watching the stream.
Lenald streamed the game to be an ass and successfully got multiple people perma banned. Mind you Lenald has their mic muted the whole time, so he isn't even talking on voice comms.

Since i wasn't watching the stream, or talking to Lenald over voicecomms; The first part of this ban is factually incorrect.

My only interactions with Lenald while playing in this VC was pda messaging them and trying to crit them for baton'ing me. I thought they were antag and almost killed them with a saw. What a metacomm. There is no rule against being in a discord call while the game is being played. Is Maxicat perma banned and deadmined for joining this call aswell for 20 minutes?
If we wanted to meta-comm we would make a private groupchat without an admin in it. Not only that but we would have used it for an advantage.

As for 'Metacomming my frustration'; i revealed 0 information about the round. I was asked why i was quiet in the vc; so i said i was 'malding over ss13' and when asked why gave one word answer 'shitsec'. There is no rule against expressing your feelings; but i can see how this is borderline in round info. Though i would prefer my intentions not to be misconstrued at all, so i will not be doing this again. I could have said "im upset over how im being treated in a game" and it would have had the exact same result but it would be absent from this ban note. I think this is unjustifiably harsh, and my intentions have just been assumed for any kind of punishment to occur from how little i said. People on TG treat eachother like dogshit; you should ban more people for the way they treat others, not whatever this is.

TLDR: lenald started breaking the rules next to me and if i knew this would get me perma'd i would have left the call

[Maxipat]

Metacomms, the use of methods of communication outside of SS13 IC channels, is a very serious rule violation and may be met with permanent bans for all related accounts.

Emphasis mine.

[Bmon]

Hello there, I was the admin who placed the bans so I'll be responding to this for now.

You were in a private discord voice channel with three other people, you and someone else were playing in the round while Improvedname(Lenald) livestreamed it and a QC banned player commentated on it.

The first thing you should have done upon noticing that Improvedname was so flagrantly breaking the metagaming rule is to get out of there and to ahelp it. Instead, you willingly participated in the metagame by staying in that channel while playing in the same round. It doesn't matter if you think you didn't act on the meta-info, you are still metagaming by being in that channel with someone revealing meta-information about the round. You and Improvedname even had interactions that round which muddies the waters even more.

There is no way you didn't know what was going on in that channel and there is no way you, an experienced player, didn't know it was against the rules. Go ahead and blame Improvedname all you want but to me they are just as guilty of metagame as you are.

About that last part of the ban reason, you should ask yourself this question: "Can I say this in OOC?" To me the answer is pretty obviously no, so you shouldn't be surprised that saying what you did in a private discord server filled with your ss13 buddies is also metagame and shows a further disregard for rule 2.

[sylviavalentijn]

The first thing you should have done upon noticing that Improvedname was so flagrantly breaking the metagaming rule

I don't know the rule precedents by heart nor did i go check them before deciding on staying in a private VC. Yes i was aware he was meta comming. It's why i didn't watch the stream. I didn't think to ahelp it because Maxicat and MSO are in the discord server.

There is no way you didn't know what was going on in that channel and there is no way you, an experienced player, didn't know it was against the rules. Go ahead and blame Improvedname all you want but to me they are just as guilty of metagame as you are.

There is no way you are saying this in good faith lol.. To say i am guilty by association, for not immediately ahelping, is insane to me. I'm sorry i didn't know the perfect solution that you wanted in this exact scenario.

About that last part of the ban reason, you should ask yourself this question: "Can I say this in OOC?"

Why should this even matter in a private conversation. Should i have been perma banned earlier because once i told my mom as she walked by i was a Wizard while i was in round as a Wizard?

[Bmon]

I don't know the rule precedents by heart nor did i go check them before deciding on staying in a private VC. Yes i was aware he was meta comming. It's why i didn't watch the stream. I didn't think to ahelp it because Maxicat and MSO are in the discord server.

I get that Maxi and MSO are in that server but they're not omnipresent and they can't always keep their eyes on everything. It's actually pretty lucky that we caught onto this when we did, that discord server is otherwise 100% private.

There is no way you are saying this in good faith lol

Look, metagaming is something we take very seriously here. It's one of the few rules that straight up say you will be perma banned if you break it and that's what happened here. There was no trickery involved, this was willing participation in metagame.


EDIT: Ah, you edited your post to add more to it while I was replying so I'll do the same.

To say i am guilty by association, for not immediately ahelping, is insane to me. I'm sorry i didn't know the perfect solution that you wanted in this exact scenario.

I mean there are imperfect solutions that probably would not have ended with you getting banned but maybe spoken to like leaving the channel when the metagaming started and not ahelping. If you're willingly staying in that channel and feeding on that information when you know it's metagame that's not a good look.

EDIT:EDIT: Missed one

Why should this even matter in a private conversation. Should i have been perma banned earlier because once i told my mom as she walked by i was a Wizard while i was in round as a Wizard?

Because you're talking about an ongoing round out of game in a private discord which if anything makes it worse. It's no longer IC in OOC, it's metagame.

Trying to rule lawyer metagaming isn't going to get you anywhere. I don't care if your mother hears or sees you playing SS13 because she likely doesn't have a clue what's going on. It is very different when you metagame to a bunch of your SS13 friends in a private discord.

[sylviavalentijn]

There was no trickery involved, this was willing participation in metagame.

Trying to rule lawyer metagaming

What i was trying to stress in my appeal is that i went out of my way to not participate in meta gaming, not that i am some moron being conned. I wrongfully assumed that by not having the stream open i was not breaking rule 2; but to onlookers, there is zero difference. Obviously i can leave, but it's awkward man. I tried to choose the path of least resistance but it seems like that would have just been not being there at all as you say.

I get that Maxi and MSO are in that server but they're not omnipresent and they can't always keep their eyes on everything. It's actually pretty lucky that we caught onto this when we did, that discord server is otherwise 100% private.

Maxi was in the conversation earlier ironically about ss13 rules and bans, and i would have thought saw me and "the qc banned player" in the call before Lenald joined me and the round and started streaming it.

It is very different when you metagame to a bunch of your SS13 friends in a private discord.

You are talking about something i said 5 minutes before i went to sleep; simply the only mention of ss13 in the main text channel while lenald was still streaming, and it doesn't mention ANYTHING specific. I had gotten brigged and gulagged a few times that day and it drained me of will to play the game, so i gave an enlightening "shit sec", and left to sleep a few minutes later. When i woke up i was perma banned and mad so i made this appeal with a bit of anger in it, and i'd like to apologize for that. It was stupid of me and hurt my chances of actually appealing this ban. I'd much prefer a conversation to a confrontation.

As far as this appeal actually goes i want a chance to play on tg again; If i am unbanned or even my ban is reduced, i won't ever metacomm in any capacity. In the 206 living hours i played on tg i got 3 notes, and if i am unbanned i can't say i will never get another, but i will not metacomm. I don't want to be perma banned. I do like this game; probably need a break, but i don't want to quit forever over a misunderstanding.

[Maxipat]

I get that Maxi and MSO are in that server but they're not omnipresent and they can't always keep their eyes on everything. It's actually pretty lucky that we caught onto this when we did, that discord server is otherwise 100% private.

Maxi was in the conversation earlier ironically about ss13 rules and bans, and i would have thought saw me and "the qc banned player" in the call before Lenald joined me and the round and started streaming it.

My last message (about the rules and bans) happened according to my phone on 6:17pm, the conversation died at 6:27pm, then my next message was at 8:51pm when I noticed you all sitting in a voicechat with livestream on (of what I learned happened to be terry after looking around more). There's only 6 messages total between when convo died and when I noticed the metacomming, none of which are relevant to either the previous convo about bans or the metacomming (it was some meme about security and answers to it in span of almost 3h)

No I don't actively monitor your server just in case someone happens to be metacomming, in fact I found out about it only because I missclicked and pressed the voice channel instead of server I wanted (I was on the phone at the time)

EDIT: (my phone time is GMT+1, server time is GMT+0, so my timestamps are an hour ahead, this was included during investigation)

[sylviavalentijn]

No I don't actively monitor your server just in case someone happens to be metacomming, in fact I found out about it only because I missclicked and pressed the voice channel instead of server I wanted (I was on the phone at the time)

I am trying to say that everyone involved knew admins were watching. We don't assume you are actively monitoring our server, but you are checking it, and obviously see what goes on in it. You just admitted in said server to having collected half a days worth of logs and screenshots. Whether by mistake or not you saw Lenald streaming within about 10 minutes of him starting and had the whole vc perma banned over it.

[Ezel]

I joined the voice channel said the n word twice and just kinda started streaming out of my own accord we did not metacomm in any way though except from chappy instructing me to make a powercrepe chappy which is also quality control banned

[Bmon]

I was able to find another instance of someone streaming a round in the discord. This time though you were providing commentary on the round while playing factorio.

Spoiler:

I am skipping a bit, there was a little more talk about the round.

The next image shows you sharing a screenshot from the stream and someone(who I have censored) telling the person streaming that what they are doing is not allowed.

Spoiler:

It doesn't matter if you're in the round or not, this is metagame, and you are once again participating in it and even pinging someone else to watch it. I am editing the ban reason to include this.

Since I have lost all faith in your ability not to metagame this ban isn't being lifted by me. You're more than welcome to request a headmin review though.

[sylviavalentijn]

I was able to find another instance of someone streaming a round in the discord. This time though you were providing commentary on the round while playing factorio.

We were talking about his sound prs for autolathes, and he offered to stream Manuel thinking it was fine, because none of us play on Manuel and he stopped when someone said he was breaking rules. Something that you had to scroll back a month for isn't actually a regular or reoccurring thing at all. No i wasn't pinging someone else to come watch it, they had joined the call and i was trying to tell them what was happening on the stream. If you want to just mindlessly ban everyone involved again; whatever, but again do you think if we wanted to break the rules we would .. stop breaking the rules when people say. I'm a relatively new player in the grand scheme of things, and wasn't really aware of the gravity of sitting in a private VC, both when we stopped and when i just stayed in it and ignored the stream.

You're more than welcome to request a headmin review though.

I would like a headmin to review it and not ignore all the context to perma ban me

I was able to find another instance of someone streaming a round in the discord

This is creepy as fuck

[Bmon]

You know I tried my best to explain why what you did was against the rules, but you really haven't done a good job at owning up to any of it.

Also, I am creepy for crtl+f searching the word "stream" in logs provided to me by another admin.

The headmins have been informed, they'll take a look at this appeal when they can.

[sylviavalentijn]

You know I tried my best to explain why what you did was against the rules, but you really haven't done a good job at owning up to any of it.

Also, I am creepy for crtl+f searching the word "stream" in logs provided to me by another admin.

The headmins have been informed, they'll take a look at this appeal when they can.

I realize i fucked up because i'm perma banned, lol. I was not trying to break the rules. Now that i've done it all i can say is i'm sorry and i won't do it again.

I don't mean to call you creepy, i don't actually know you, I find the procedure of having logs saved, sent to a third party and scanned over uncomfortable. I understand you want do to a thorough job, but you never asked or spoke to me about anything before this was done.

[dendydoom]

hello,

we are voting to uphold this ban, and welcome a re-appeal in 6 months.

the information around this situation is that you were in a voice call with another player who was in the same round, who was also streaming that round. this is in violation of our rules on metacomming.

you are not responsible for the actions of others but you are responsible for your own actions, and it was your choice to be in a voice call with other players (one of whom was streaming the game) while also participating in that round yourself.

we cannot determine how much information was shared, nor do we find it necessary to prove that the information was used for a clear in-game advantage. all that is required of us is to determine that this channel of communication was open between 2 players in the same round.

please consider how this is unfair to all other participants in that current round and how it casts scrutiny on all the actions you may have taken that round. we must be able to trust our players if we are to accommodate them on our servers to participate in an equal and fair game. by utilizing metacommunications in this way, that trust is jeopardized and we cannot say with certainty that you were participating fairly.

thank you for your time.