/tg/Station 13

There's been a lot of reeing about metacomms being used to teach. Players think it's more than reasonable, because this game has a high mechanical knowledge floor, and also everyone does it anyway (probably), while admins are zero tolerance "nuke it from orbit" because metacomms undermine the very core fabric of the game.

Let's meet in the middle.

My proposal is to add the following to Rule 2:

"Metacommunications, such as using a third party communication tool like Discord, are only allowed when teaching another player. You must send an adminhelp notifying administrators when you do this, and it must include who you are teaching, what you are teaching, and you must also notify administrators when you are finished teaching them, and immediately cease using metacommunications when you are done."

There. Now players get access to the one good use of metacomms, and admins don't have to ban people for just teaching their friends anymore, and there are no more excuses from players on the matter, plus it also leaves a paper trail in tickets of who may be metacomming with who if they are suspected of breaking the metacomms rule in the future.

I thought this nuance was already covered in the rule 2 precedent:

If players are sharing the same IP or know each other in real life or the like, inform the admins first, otherwise it may look suspicious. Players are allowed to introduce new players that they know to the game but all communication and explanations should be done in game if possible. Admins can also help in these situations if requested.

AFAIK, no one should be copping bans for teaching their friends how to play (presuming all teaching occurs in-game). From what I recall when I adminned a few years back, if someone ahelped to let us know that they wanted to teach their friend how to play, it was kosher. What wasn't kosher were situations where it was obvious the newbie and the experienced friend were exclusively communicating in VC or outside of the game. At that point, you may as well host a local server and just teach them there.

Sadly, there's too much room for ambiguity and abuse if any exceptions are made to allow this to happen elsewhere (like on Discord) where logs are difficult to attain or potentially dodgy to trust compared to in-game ones. Honestly, it just sounds like a nightmare to administrate fairly or properly.

Tbh, one could also argue that in-game teaching benefits other players via learning through osmosis/observation. When I was new, that was one of the ways I got to grips with some of the more esoteric mechanics/systems this game has.

gum disease wrote: ↑Sat Jul 13, 2024 11:05 am I thought this nuance was already covered in the rule 2 precedent:

If players are sharing the same IP or know each other in real life or the like, inform the admins first, otherwise it may look suspicious. Players are allowed to introduce new players that they know to the game but all communication and explanations should be done in game if possible. Admins can also help in these situations if requested.

AFAIK, no one should be copping bans for teaching their friends how to play (presuming all teaching occurs in-game). From what I recall when I adminned a few years back, if someone ahelped to let us know that they wanted to teach their friend how to play, it was kosher. What wasn't kosher were situations where it was obvious the newbie and the experienced friend were exclusively communicating in VC or outside of the game. At that point, you may as well host a local server and just teach them there.

Sadly, there's too much room for ambiguity and abuse if any exceptions are made to allow this to happen elsewhere (like on Discord) where logs are difficult to attain or potentially dodgy to trust compared to in-game ones. Honestly, it just sounds like a nightmare to administrate fairly or properly.

Tbh, one could also argue that in-game teaching benefits other players via learning through osmosis/observation. When I was new, that was one of the ways I got to grips with some of the more esoteric mechanics/systems this game has.

The key issue is the "should be done in game" portion of what you quoted. No one wants to do this with their real life friend they've known for ten years who they're finally deciding to introduce to the game, they just drop into a Discord call. If people are just going to do this anyway, we miaswell regulate and log it in tickets.

Also it looks really silly to see "okay now that you have the donk pocket, just click on your character to eat it... No, wait, you have to lower your gas mask first. No, turn off combat mode, you're just smacking yourself with it. You turn off combat mode with the F key. No, you turned on throw mode...".

I know admin preference is that people would do this, but no one wants to do that, it takes forever to type all of that, and also it's very immersion breaking for everyone else.

Also, "just host a local server" always has been and always will be a copout. People don't want to do that, they don't know how, and they don't want to open their ports and shit because most people can barely use email, let alone that stuff. Anyone who seriously suggests this has never worked an IT job, or they would know it's not a realistic suggestion at all.

I already do this and it's fine, just ahelp so I'm aware it's happening and it's fine by me.

It's already ask for permission. Many admins will grant permission if asked. Many will not. But all will handle instances where permission was not asked first in the appropriate way.

For example, when it comes to players asking for permission to use voice comms to teach their friends I tell them that any IC information discussed in the call must **also** be relayed via some IC method and the voice comms should augment the IC teaching and replace communication entirely. That way the impact of the metacomms is minimised to a level so trivial that it's no different from playing normally.

My thought process is they're probably going to keep doing it anyway, I might as well get them to do it in a way that's compatible with the spirit of the game.

Great, well, if you two agree it's already de facto the situation, there shouldn't be much issue actually codifying this in the rules so that everyone is aware that they can do this, right?

Everyone is already aware they can do this. Nobody wants to be told they must do this.

The default stance is that players shouldn't and don't need to metacom to teach. Some admins are simply more flexible on if and how they permit it than others.

The most likely addition is the headmins specifying that it can never be excepted, than the headmins specifying it can be.

There have been instances where it is obvious people are metacomming, didn't ask for permission, but the times between the various accounts and their actual in-game behaviour indicates that the group is just learning the game together. Since we have this permission already, I usually just ahelp them and ask if it is taking place and, if so, explain the metacomms rules and the parameters to operate within and make a note of it and let them get back to the game, and then make a note of it on their account about the connection. We will always make that note. We need to know their connection and future admins need to know they've been informed.

We don't have to be draconian about it if it isn't being done in bad faith, and we have the ability to apply that discretion as necessary.

this type of teaching can only take place when there's an active admin refereeing the game, so that they can use their abilities and oversight of the round to ensure that it remains fair, and that the actions of those who are communicating are monitored in such a way that it refutes any scrutiny placed on them.

the "draconian" assumption that has come up in a recent (note) appeal for metacomming on an empty server is that this is the default stance for this rule when that permission and oversight has not been requested.

this is so that the game remains fair by default, and that fairness is never undermined by outside factors calling it into question. there is no chance that little caveats and excuses slip their way into the player consciousness, so that people don't start going "well metacomming is allowed on campbell if x or y or z, because i've seen so-and-so do it and they didn't get punished-"

i've never been against admins doing this or players requesting it, despite the assumptions a few people have been eager to cast on my motives and principles. i've gone into it in previous posts, ones that the nuance has inevitably failed to settle in for the people that don't care to look for it.

almost every admin is more than happy to accommodate new players, and help them to learn in any way possible. there have been times where i've not only made room for someone to teach another the game, but i've also gone so far as to remove the new player and their mentor as a target from any antagonists, and to ensure that the round is less chaotic for that person to be able to get to grips with the very basics of the controls.

other times i have personally spawned in to tutor people on mechanics, and given them items when they needed it so that they could experiment with mechanics and learn new things about the game.

i'm not against any of this.

what i, personally, am against is using things like VC outside of the game, because we cannot monitor it, and by extension, we cannot refute any scrutiny placed on those people by their behaviour in the game. consider a situation where we're aware of 2 people in a VC, one teaching the other, and they truly are just talking about mechanics, never once mentioning anything IC happening in the round.
then, by chance, an antagonist attacks the new player, and the mentor happens to arrive back in time to see it and kill the attacker. we now have a situation where no one can feasibly determine whether that situation played out fairly or not.

i am more than happy to accommodate new people into our game. i will personally move heaven and earth in order to do so. but the game must remain fair to other participants while that is going on, and that default standard of fairness must be maintained so that it is only ever special cases where it is lifted by explicit permission rather than by any sort of assumption.

if i had the time and support, then i likely would try to codify this in policy, along with the removal of playminning, because it's something else i see as fundamentally unfair.

as it stands right now, i trust our referees to perform their roles as referees, but their oversight and permission *must be sought out* instead of players making their own choices. because the result otherwise will be that the rules that exist to make the game fair will be applied, even if those intentions are good.

tf2 has/had a coach system for you to have a buddy watching from your vantage point who can see what you can see, (and only what you can see).

We can already do this with the observe hud system (its a check box in the orbit menu) so if we had a way for a player to mark themselves as a coach for somebody, locking them out of ghost vision and forcing them into observe hud while their student was alive, we could treat the two players as having the same meta knowledge, and allow metacomms.

MrStonedOne wrote: ↑Mon Jul 15, 2024 11:13 am tf2 has/had a coach system for you to have a buddy watching from your vantage point who can see what you can see, (and only what you can see).

We can already do this with the observe hud system (its a check box in the orbit menu) so if we had a way for a player to mark themselves as a coach for somebody, locking them out of ghost vision and forcing them into observe hud while their student was alive, we could treat the two players as having the same meta knowledge, and allow metacomms.

we sorta have this, its called imaginary friend and only the player who has the friend can see and hear them. Asking admins to be made an imaginary friend of a new player seems like a good idea.

britgrenadier1 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 15, 2024 11:37 pm

MrStonedOne wrote: ↑Mon Jul 15, 2024 11:13 am tf2 has/had a coach system for you to have a buddy watching from your vantage point who can see what you can see, (and only what you can see).

We can already do this with the observe hud system (its a check box in the orbit menu) so if we had a way for a player to mark themselves as a coach for somebody, locking them out of ghost vision and forcing them into observe hud while their student was alive, we could treat the two players as having the same meta knowledge, and allow metacomms.

we sorta have this, its called imaginary friend and only the player who has the friend can see and hear them. Asking admins to be made an imaginary friend of a new player seems like a good idea.

That makes it so you can explore thou walls and give advance knowledge if I am not mistaken.

britgrenadier1 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 15, 2024 11:37 pm

MrStonedOne wrote: ↑Mon Jul 15, 2024 11:13 am tf2 has/had a coach system for you to have a buddy watching from your vantage point who can see what you can see, (and only what you can see).

We can already do this with the observe hud system (its a check box in the orbit menu) so if we had a way for a player to mark themselves as a coach for somebody, locking them out of ghost vision and forcing them into observe hud while their student was alive, we could treat the two players as having the same meta knowledge, and allow metacomms.

we sorta have this, its called imaginary friend and only the player who has the friend can see and hear them. Asking admins to be made an imaginary friend of a new player seems like a good idea.

I have done this before and will continue to do it when asked

britgrenadier1 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 15, 2024 11:37 pm

MrStonedOne wrote: ↑Mon Jul 15, 2024 11:13 am tf2 has/had a coach system for you to have a buddy watching from your vantage point who can see what you can see, (and only what you can see).

We can already do this with the observe hud system (its a check box in the orbit menu) so if we had a way for a player to mark themselves as a coach for somebody, locking them out of ghost vision and forcing them into observe hud while their student was alive, we could treat the two players as having the same meta knowledge, and allow metacomms.

we sorta have this, its called imaginary friend and only the player who has the friend can see and hear them. Asking admins to be made an imaginary friend of a new player seems like a good idea.

100% happy to do this if asked. the seeing through walls is technically a benefit here, yeah, but much less so than being a ghost (assuming your buddy knows what to look for anyway)

The fact that it is even possible to metacomm if you ask an admin first is throwing me through a loop.

What.

I thought TG was like ultra mega harsh NO METACOMMS you know?

Constellado wrote: ↑Wed Jul 17, 2024 11:25 pm The fact that it is even possible to metacomm if you ask an admin first is throwing me through a loop.

What.

I thought TG was like ultra mega harsh NO METACOMMS you know?

You can break so many rules if the currently online admins ok it. (Also when every admin online are orbiting you and your friend knowing you're in a call your opportunities for exploiting tactical advantage without being caught are... limited.)

Imitates-The-Lizards wrote: ↑Sat Jul 13, 2024 10:22 am and also everyone does it anyway (probably),

Not everyone, dear.

MrStonedOne wrote: ↑Mon Jul 15, 2024 11:13 am tf2 has/had a coach system for you to have a buddy watching from your vantage point who can see what you can see, (and only what you can see).

We can already do this with the observe hud system (its a check box in the orbit menu) so if we had a way for a player to mark themselves as a coach for somebody, locking them out of ghost vision and forcing them into observe hud while their student was alive, we could treat the two players as having the same meta knowledge, and allow metacomms.

this seems like a very reasonable compromise, and we could funnel players into utilizing it without having to ask for permission.

maybe it's the boomer in me talking but i really dislike the idea of people playing a round together and being sequestered away into a VC - i'm entirely unconvinced that the majority of our users can split their attention that well between what people are saying in a VC and what's being said ICly in the game. but if both of those players share the same mob then this becomes way less of an issue.

my only real concern is perhaps adding some sort of playtime cap on when it can be used, so that people don't start using it as a "come watch me play and we can chat the whole time" rather than as a teaching tool.

well my metacomm griefing discord doesn't agree with this
in seriousness though, we should encourage people to use the tgstation discord for such stuff. like not make it mandatory, but perhaps create some 'coaching' channels that are unambiguously kosher - you can stream your game in these channels and people can tell you how to play.

dendydoom wrote: ↑Mon Jul 22, 2024 2:15 pm

MrStonedOne wrote: ↑Mon Jul 15, 2024 11:13 am Snip

Snip

maybe it's the boomer in me talking but i really dislike the idea of people playing a round together and being sequestered away into a VC - i'm entirely unconvinced that the majority of our users can split their attention that well between what people are saying in a VC and what's being said ICly in the game. but if both of those players share the same mob then this becomes way less of an issue.

my only real concern is perhaps adding some sort of playtime cap on when it can be used, so that people don't start using it as a "come watch me play and we can chat the whole time" rather than as a teaching tool.

Maybe it’s the zoomer in me, but why? Being social is okay, and if it’s okay for two people to share the same mob, why isn’t it okay for one player to stream to people who aren’t playing and just want to watch?

Before anyone says it, the people watching obviously couldn’t then go and join the game once it’s been streamed to them. My elevator pitch for getting people into this game is so weird because I can’t say “yeah just watch me play for a bit.” I have to say “yeah so here are clips from this game that’s super cool, but I can’t stream it, oh and we can’t talk to each other while we play, oh and don’t dm me when you’re online in game either.”

I get it, game integrity, metacomming for advantage bad, hard to detect, and anytime it is detected it’s indicative of it being done way more then just what was detected. But maybe if we vegetated a little bit on it a bit, and had some trust in our players, we could foster new players a bit better and also build the community up a bit more. Just a thought.

britgrenadier1 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 22, 2024 4:24 pm Maybe it’s the zoomer in me, but why? Being social is okay, and if it’s okay for two people to share the same mob, why isn’t it okay for one player to stream to people who aren’t playing and just want to watch?

there's something that i would kinda like an explicit ruling on, although part of me does think it may be better to leave as a grey area.

if i had a real life friend (heh) in my place of abode, sitting next to me, watching me play ss13 over my shoulder, i would strongly argue that what we're doing is perfectly fine, so long as my alleged friend doesn't end up joining the same round later, or hop on discord and start commenting on the round or something.

but... that's not materially different from me sharing my screen with someone in a dm who i trust isn't in game

streaming applications only vet the person who applies to be the streamer, but it still opens the door for a lot of metagaming from the stream's viewers; "hard' metagaming ("i need this person for my antag objective, i see on stream that they're at location x") maybe has a slim chance of being caught, while "soft" metagaming ("oh this round is warops, i will join the round") is completely impossible to catch. yet streaming is accepted and allowed on tgstation servers, because it is believed that the benefits outweigh the costs.

i am going to commit the cardinal sin of lumping the entire server administration into one gestalt entity, but it doesn't feel internally consistent for someone to be streaming the game, live, to the public on twitch to be allowed, but letting me emulate the experience of watching over my shoulder by privately streaming to a friend in a dm to be disallowed.

(plus, like, it's not like the admins have any way in hell of knowing)

Maybe it’s time for a new policy thread since the scope of this one is just about teaching new people.

Lots of valuable insights here I’d tend to agree with. Especially the “friend watching over your shoulder” argument— as much as I understand the issues with policing things such as this (especially as an admin, now!) I also do want to place a little trust in our players and maybe test-run this somehow.

This all doubles down for me in the perspective of the streamer rules, too— it really is almost impossible to catch without a tip-off, and difficult to confirm being spoon-fed info anyway. Our rules feel inconsistent here. I hope we can change that.

we currently have no interest in changing the rules around metacomming.

they are strict because we are a hidden role social deduction roleplaying game. we are traditional games station, and our style of play is rooted in tabletop roleplaying games. we would like our players to pay attention to the round and not splinter themselves into these small, sequestered bubbles of interaction that lie outside of the game space while the game is going on. we ask that players don't share information about ongoing rounds to ensure fairness to their fellow participants and to ensure that they are engrossed in the round in front of them.

whenever a metacord has come under investigation, it has almost always uncovered the group's ability to co-ordinate and control the space in some manner, usually by fuelling resentment toward and acting against players that they don't like. we refuse to allow unmoderated, entrenched in-groups power over the ability to gatekeep rounds.

we believe what would bring short term comfort in relaxing these rules would lead to long term harm in the culture of our servers and the type of game we're trying to facilitate. there are plenty of servers which present themselves as glorified graphical chatrooms, this is not one of them.

there is value in places like roundend discussion where players can talk to each other "backstage" after a session. a shared space where they can celebrate what was fun, commiserate over what wasn't, vent over what was frustrating, whatever it may be. it brings people together and lets off steam. but we don't believe in dropping kayfabe until the round is over. we believe it leads to better experiences this way.

there is understanding extended to those who live with others or are in situations where not sharing round info is impossible, and we trust players in these instances to police themselves because there is no way for us to do it. the same can be said for completely private external discords etc, we cannot police them, we just ask you to respect our game and the time and effort of other participants by not cheating.

in the case where you are trying to teach someone the game and would like relaxed rules on this for the specific purpose of teaching, then we require players to ask admins to do so, and we fully trust our admins to accommodate this fairly in their role as referees of the game.