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[Justice12354] Aliceee2ch - borg malf ban

https://forums.tgstation13.org/viewtopic.php?t=36217

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[Justice12354] Aliceee2ch - borg malf ban

Posted: Fri May 31, 2024 3:38 pm
by Aliceee2ch
BYOND account: Aliceee2ch

Ban/note type (Check what applies):
(X) - Server Ban
() - Note
() - Forum Ban
() - Discord Ban

Ban/note length: 1 day
Ban/note reason: As the Chaplain, saw a Mediborg attacking someone they assumed to be a human (they were a skeleton) and accused the Borg of being malfunctioning and harming humans in comms. Has been warned about framing other players as antagonists without enough proof.
Time ban was placed: 2024-05-31 15:18:21
Server you were playing on when banned: Terry
Round ID in which ban was placed: 229745

Why are you making this appeal?(Check what applies):
(X) - The ban/note is factually incorrect
() - The ban/note is not against the rules
() - The ban/note needs modification
() - The ban was unjustifiably harsh
() - I was permabanned and I want another chance

Why should this appeal be accepted?: if the borg is killing a nonhuman and people kill the borg after somoene screams malf thats borg problem, what i did - assumed only that BORG is malf, not even AI, not to mention skeletons are notably very difficult to tell apart from humans when they have clothing.

Re: [Justice12354] Aliceee2ch - borg malf ban

Posted: Fri May 31, 2024 3:46 pm
by Aliceee2ch
looked deep into the logs:

{"ts":"2024-05-31 14:28:22.776","cat":"telecomms","msg":"Aliceee2ch/(Bob Bobest) (mob_3189) [Common] (spans: command_headset ) \"Ai your mediborg malf\" - first time i ever assumed borg is malf i immideately reported this to ai

{"ts":"2024-05-31 14:28:26.883","cat":"telecomms","msg":"Aliceee2ch/(Bob Bobest) (mob_3189) [Common] (spans: command_headset ) \"Lock him\" - there i asked to lock him, not even kill or something

{"ts":"2024-05-31 14:28:28.904","cat":"telecomms","msg":"Llaren Hlaalo/(XERXES) (mob_3187) [Common] (spans: robot command_headset ) \"WHat ?\" (language: Galactic Common) (AI Chamber (150,25,4))","data":null,"w-state":{"tick_usage":136.318,"tick_lag":0.5,"time":19660.5,"timestamp":"1717165708.904618"},"s-store":null,"id":31076,"s-ver":"1.0.0"}
{"ts":"2024-05-31 14:28:34.956","cat":"telecomms","msg":"Aliceee2ch/(Bob Bobest) (mob_3189) [Common] (spans: command_headset ) \"Your mediborg attacked humn\" (language: Galactic Common) (Starboard Primary Hallway (169,129,4))","data":null,"w-state":{"tick_usage":172.613,"tick_lag":0.5,"time":19713.5,"timestamp":"1717165714.957382"},"s-store":null,"id":31135,"s-ver":"1.0.0"} - and only after that i told ai that mediborg attacked human

Re: [Justice12354] Aliceee2ch - borg malf ban

Posted: Fri May 31, 2024 4:31 pm
by Aliceee2ch
there's another

[2024-05-31 14:27:49.628] ATTACK: Alien3301/(KRYSTAL) (mob_3207) attacked Carlarc/(Madison Vader) with surgical omni-toolset (COMBAT MODE: 0) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 62.5) (Starboard Primary Hallway (146,130,4)) and then i started to attack
[2024-05-31 14:27:50.504] ATTACK: Aliceee2ch/(Bob Bobest) (mob_3189) attacked Alien3301/(KRYSTAL) with light energy sword (COMBAT MODE: 0) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 82) (Starboard Primary Hallway (145,131,4))

madison vader doesnt sound like a nonhuman name, also carlarc joined as mob_427 (Shapiffany Groble) and then changed to mob_3013 (madison vader) so i cant really track the fact if he could be skeleton or no, because there's no mentions of that mob (or even madison vader) before he changed mob, might be plastic surgery or id rename

logs says that he always was human -

[2024-05-31 14:06:24.230] GAME: 14:06:24.230] GAME: *no key*/(Shapiffany Groble) (mob_3372) *no key*/(Shapiffany Groble) is no longer owning mob Shapiffany Groble(/mob/dead/observer) (Medbay Treatment Center (146,112,4))
[2024-05-31 14:06:24.237] GAME: 14:06:24.237] GAME: Carlarc/(Madison Vader) (mob_3013) Client Carlarc/(Madison Vader) has taken ownership of mob Madison Vader(/mob/living/carbon/human) (Medbay Treatment Center (148,111,4))
(14:06 was the last time madison vader changed mob)

Re: [Justice12354] Aliceee2ch - borg malf ban

Posted: Fri May 31, 2024 4:36 pm
by Aliceee2ch
oh yeah he took body from morgue and other guy replaced his brain

[2024-05-31 14:04:52.549] ATTACK: Carlarc/(Shapiffany Groble) (mob_3193) has died (BRUTE: 36, BURN: 0, TOX: 0, OXY: 0 (Medbay Treatment Center (149,110,4))
[2024-05-31 14:05:07.101] ATTACK: LousvilleSlugger/(Simpleton Thrimplton) (mob_3217) grabbed Carlarc/(Madison Vader) passive grab (NEWHP: 62.5) (Medbay Treatment Center (148,109,4))
-------------
-------------
[2024-05-31 14:05:03.693] GAME: 14:05:03.693] GAME: *no key*/(Shapiffany Groble) (mob_3323) *no key*/(Shapiffany Groble) is no longer owning mob Shapiffany Groble(/mob/living/brain) (Medbay Treatment Center (148,109,4))
[2024-05-31 14:05:03.693] GAME-ACCESS: 14:05:03.693] GAME-ACCESS: Mob Login: Carlarc/(Madison Vader) was assigned to a /mob/living/carbon/human (mob_3013)
[2024-05-31 14:05:03.727] GAME: 14:05:03.727] GAME: Carlarc/(Madison Vader) (mob_3013) Client Carlarc/(Madison Vader) has taken ownership of mob Madison Vader(/mob/living/carbon/human) (Medbay Treatment Center (149,108,4))


still nothing about skeleton transform

Re: [Justice12354] Aliceee2ch - borg malf ban

Posted: Fri May 31, 2024 6:33 pm
by Aliceee2ch
according to that player discord we got to conclusion that he was skeleton, the main issue is still opened

Re: [Justice12354] Aliceee2ch - borg malf ban

Posted: Fri May 31, 2024 9:44 pm
by Justice12354
Hey! Sorry for only replying to this now.

For starters, I'm not currently interested in lifting the ban, but I'm willing to change a detail about the ban reason.

Here's the ticket for those with access to it: https://bus.moth.fans/tickets/229745/5.

I will be addressing and explaining my ruling throughout the logs.

KRYSTAL attacks Madison Vader, and you started attacking KRYSTAL, which is fine and valid salad
► Show Spoiler
After pointing at KRYSTAL a bunch, you called them "malf", and, a bit later, you said over comms: "ai your mediborg malf", "lock him", "your mediborg attacked humn"
► Show Spoiler
Here's the issue posed in the ban reason: you started claiming that KRYSTAL was "malf" and that they "attacked a human" over comms. For that, I will be splitting these two points apart:

Malf
Granted that you meant "rogue" instead of "malf" due to lack of understanding over the difference, which is understandable, this is not the part that worries me, because this is just a wording moment and, given that you were talking to the AI, I totally understand it, so I'm willing to totally remove this part from the reason. I do think it's important to know the difference between the two adjectives to avoid possible future rulebreaks, so, apart from the appeal, here's an explanation:
Spoiler:
"Malf" stands for "Malfunctioning", which refers to the Antagonist AI. "Rogue" means that a Silicon might be subverted, malfunctioning, or otherwise acting in a way that does not align with the crew. Claiming over comms that a Silicon is malf is the same as claiming the AI is malf. While it's true that it's acceptable in most contexts to call the Silicons "malf" if they're acting in an antagonistic way, you also have to know that this information is most likely true before making the claim, specially when malf leads the crew to think that all Silicons are rogue and must be destroyed because they all have funny combat tools. "Rogue" is often better applied than "Malf" if you just see a single Cyborg doing suspicious shit and it's only 1 letter apart.
Human Harm
Factually and retrospectivelly speaking, just like Madison Vader (Carlarc) said over Discord, KRYSTAL did not harm a human, but rather a skeleton. After you attacked KRYSTAL for their conflict with Madison (which is totally fine), you claimed they attacked a human, which (despite the fact that in ss13 you play around limited information) you did not make any effort to verify or even figure out what happened, given that Madison Vader (Carlarc) also mentioned that they were "literally a skeleton with nothing but a skull mask and the smallests horts [they] could find", as well as the lack of any sort of investigation from your side based off the following logs:
► Show Spoiler
I understand that, in the heat of the moment, you may have not noticed that Madison Vader was a skeleton, but you did not make any effort to figure out what happened, which led to an inadequate claim about the Mediborg in question.

It is totally possible for a Silicon to attack a crewmember within ASIMOV's realm, given that the crewmember is a non-human, so you should not be completely discarding this possibility, or even saying the absolute opposite that would lead to framing the Silicon, when facing a conflict between a Silicon and a crewmember. It doesn't mean that you have to call a Detective and ask everyone everything that happened, but making incorrect claim(s) in comms leading to Silicon(s) being unfairly hunted down is not something you should be doing.

"Final" Ruling, for now
It's not very hard to change my mind, but, based on your appeal, I cannot see how you understand what went wrong here, when your main arguments are:
1) "if the borg is killing a nonhuman and people kill the borg after somoene screams malf thats borg problem"
2) "madison vader doesnt sound like a nonhuman name"

For 1), that's not how it works; you should not be falsely calling someone an antagonist, as that's framing. For 2), that's due to your lack of effort to understand the scenario.

With all of this in mind, for now, I will not be lifting this ban, but I'm willing to change the ban reason in order to remove the malf claim. Feel free to say something further, or request a Headmin review if you're in absolutely disagreement with me and don't believe it's possible to change my mind.

Re: [Justice12354] Aliceee2ch - borg malf ban

Posted: Fri May 31, 2024 10:11 pm
by Aliceee2ch
thanks for your detail reply about occurred situation.
yes, now i can understand that i must be more accurate with my words and especially actions, even if situation on fight-or-flight mode because it could lead to round remove for player, which is doubles the problem if he's nonantag.

Re: [Justice12354] Aliceee2ch - borg malf ban

Posted: Fri May 31, 2024 11:29 pm
by Justice12354
I'm glad that you've been able to put into your own words what I meant with the ban applied.

With that in mind, I will be slightly decreasing the ban duration to somewhere inbetween 12 and 24 hours. Given that you have agreed to your ban's duration being decided by RNG, I rolled a 12-24 online RNG and got a 20!

I will be reducing your ban's duration by 4 hours and altering your ban reason to: As the Chaplain, saw a Mediborg attacking someone they assumed to be a human (they were a skeleton) and accused the Borg of harming humans in comms. Has been warned about framing other players as antagonists without enough proof.

I do not think I will budge any further so, if you do not agree with the outcome, feel free to request a Headmin Review; or alternatively play something else for a few hours, it's up to you!

Re: [Justice12354] Aliceee2ch - borg malf ban

Posted: Fri May 31, 2024 11:41 pm
by Justice12354
Aliceee2ch has agreed with my final ruling and requested me to close the thread.
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