[Thedragmeme] MatrixOne - Hostile admin swearing at me in the bwoink

[MatrixOne]

When and where this incident occured (Game Server, forums, Discord): 2024-05-13 on the game server Manuel
Byond account and character name OR Discord name: Byond "MatrixOne" character name "Selena Rohrmann"
Admin: Thedragmeme
ROUND ID HERE IF APPLICABLE: 228815
Detailed summary:
I want to complain about a bwoink that should have been left as an IC issue, and that was instead very inexplicably hostile on the admin's side. The bwoink did not result in a note (it was "left open"), but it caused me a great deal of stress to the point where I wasn't comfortable playing as my static or as CMO for a while. I'd like the admin to at least see why it caused me to feel so bad, so they may potentially soften their approach a bit in the future. I'll summarize what led up to the bwoink and then post a log of the bwoink itself. First the summary of events:

I was the CMO and a toxic chemist took my plumbing tool and welded off the factory. I'll hide their name. It began like this:

I arrived in medbay and after a brief positive interaction with a paramed, I asked if the chemist was making formaldehyde, to which they replied in the negative right away, but I kept up a silly tone none the less:
07:50:31 SAY MatrixOne/(Selena Rohrmann) (mob_3434) "anyone making forma?"
07:50:44 SAY (CHEMIST) (mob_3284) "of course not, that takes silver"
07:50:48 SAY (CHEMIST) (mob_3284) "who would make that"
07:51:00 SAY MatrixOne/(Selena Rohrmann) (mob_3434) "true, sounds boring"

Afterwards, I went to the chem factory to make my compact 8x4 tile sali/oxa setup. The chemist was working there, but far in the right side of the tramstation factory which is also the largest factory space in the game. It was so large that I could barely see them at the edge of my screen. I thought by their forma reply that they'd want to just be left alone, so I started to build my compact factory and was immediately shouted at by the chemist:

07:51:02 SAY (CHEMIST) (mob_3284) "oi"
07:51:05 SAY (CHEMIST) (mob_3284) "my factory!!!"
07:51:08 SAY (CHEMIST) (mob_3284) "fuck off"
07:51:12 SAY MatrixOne/(Selena Rohrmann) (mob_3434) "what?"
07:51:16 SAY (CHEMIST) (mob_3284) "You heard me"
07:51:18 SAY (CHEMIST) (mob_3284) "fuck offf"
07:51:23 SAY MatrixOne/(Selena Rohrmann) (mob_3434) "nope"
07:51:25 SAY (CHEMIST) (mob_3284) "ure taking all my space"
07:51:33 SAY (CHEMIST) (mob_3284) "shoo"
07:51:37 SAY MatrixOne/(Selena Rohrmann) (mob_3434) "nnnope"
07:51:45 SAY MatrixOne/(Selena Rohrmann) (mob_3434) "Should ahve made something useful"
07:51:47 SAY MatrixOne/(Selena Rohrmann) (mob_3434) "as it stands we need meds"
07:52:05 SAY (CHEMIST) (mob_3284) "ith what fucking time, I had to build the fucking cave myself'"

At this point, the chemist picked up the plumbing tool I had set down and bagged it, leaving me unable to continue. I left to print one at the lathe, and the chemist immediately welded down the airlock:
07:52:22 GAME (CHEMIST) (mob_3284) welded airlock Chemistry with the welding tool.

That by itself seemed very strangely out of line, for the chemist to weld a CMO out of the lab, but I assumed it'd just be an IC issue and went to print a welder to open up the airlock. I also conferred with the captain about the whole situation, saying I might need to demote the chemist for welding me out. However, everything was put on hold when I was bwoinked by Thedragmeme with a very sudden and hostile tone.

Please note how suddenly hostile it was, how the admin used strangely toxic phrases like "you're swinging your dick around, it's an asshole move and I'm not gonna tolerate it," and see it in light of the situation described above - a CMO being told to "fuck off" and welded out of their own factory!
The chemist also said I'm taking "all their space" when my factory setup is very small: 36 tiles, which is less than 1/7th of a massive tramstation cave that's at least 220 tiles large and can be excavated even further. I can only guess they must have said something terrible about me and mentioned I took "all" their space in their ahelp, and the admin must have not investigated and simply started off with hostility, as follows:

From Ticket #5 during round 228815 on Manuel:

---- Log Begins ----
2024-05-13 19:54:35: Ticket Opened by thedragmeme: Hey, dont be a dick to your staff. You need to let people have an oppertunity to engage with their job content before you take over their entire space. Just because you're the CMO it dosent mean you can be an ass.
2024-05-13 19:55:20: Reply from matrixone: I need to make a factory and it's my right as CMO, the first thing they told me was to Fuck off. I don't mean to be rude to them but I have a job to do as well, and the cave is huge enough for us both. It was uncalled for them to immediately say to fuck off and to weld down the chem lab when I'm their boss!
2024-05-13 19:56:07: Reply from thedragmeme: You were told to fuck off because with zero communication you got in the way of your chemist who is already in the process of setting up a factory. If you need chemicals quick and in a timely manner you also have access to the pharmacy
2024-05-13 19:56:50: Reply from matrixone: We can work together on the factory, I dont mean to step on their toes I just came in to quickly set up something for the medbay in this huge space that we have shared that we can both use
2024-05-13 19:58:24: Reply from thedragmeme: Then you need to communicate that intent instead of swining your dick around "just because you can", its an asshole move and Im not going to tolerate it. This game relies on communication.
2024-05-13 19:58:59: Reply from matrixone: fair enough, I'll be more communicative next time but please also consider their behavior, I'd like you to fairly assess this and notice the way they spoke to me and how they welded down the pharmacy against me
2024-05-13 20:01:06: Reply from thedragmeme: I am in fact considering their behavior, however this entire thing started because you acted as an instagator. Just remember to communicate with your staff next time. Tram is hell to do factories on because you need to mine out the entire space you need, so when someone just runs up and takes it youve nullified all of that effort.<br />
<br />
While harsh I dont think their reaction is entirely unreasonable.
2024-05-13 20:02:14: SubtleMessage: <a>Thedragmeme</a>/(Vex Petunia-Licht) -&gt; <a>MatrixOne</a>/(Selena Rohrmann) : You feel like you're in danger
2024-05-13 20:04:03: Reply from matrixone: Okay, I'll communicate more in the future. I don't feel like I was the instigator - I simply came in to make a factory and the first thing I heard was to fuck off. Tram's factory is also the largest. I'd say the blame is at least equal on both sides, or I'd hope it to be the case. Anyway, I understand your point and will try to be more communicative, the truth is as CMO I want to do the setup very fast and efficiently so that we have a flow of meds and I can run the medbay. Hope that explains why I kinda ran in fast
2024-05-13 20:05:34: Reply from thedragmeme: Don't feel like this is entirely one sided, Im also speaking to the chemist as well. As a CMO/Command main its really important to talk to people, especially because this is the MRP server
2024-05-13 20:06:52: Reply from matrixone: Understood, and you're right. I honestly didn't even see they were working the factory because they were far on the right side so I just started to put down my setup and then saw they had excavated the tiles to the right side. But in retrospect it's polite to ask if they're using the space and so on
2024-05-13 20:07:13: Reply from thedragmeme: Yep yep, just use this as a learning experience for next time
2024-05-13 20:08:12: Reply from matrixone: Got it. Strangely enough, moments after that incident, I was morphined and teleported out of the station by someone else - I hope that's a case of shared antagging and not metafriending of some kind, just letting you know in any case
2024-05-13 20:08:33: Reply from thedragmeme: That instance was completely unrelated to this conversation, good luck!
2024-05-13 20:09:53: Reply from matrixone: okay sweet. and thank you for not treating it as a one sided thing, I would have felt really bad (I'm a bit new to the CMO role and I do want to do the best I can)
2024-05-13 20:11:35: Reply from thedragmeme: Yeye, if you ever feel unsure dont be afraid to ahelp and ask us for input
2024-05-13 20:12:08: Reply from matrixone: normally I'm worried if I'm being a bother, especially asking about game related things
2024-05-13 20:12:22: Reply from thedragmeme: We are here willingly I promise!
---- No Further Messages ----

This ticket can be viewed:

• By the affected player: http://statbus.space/tickets/228815/5
• By admins: http://statbus.space/tgdb/tickets/228815/5

This ticket was generated by Statbus v.1.18.1

The ticket ended positively because I tried very hard to be as polite as I could, but it left me feeling very stressed and like I was treated badly. I have multiple issues with this, so I'll list them:

1. The immediate hostility.
The admin called me a dick instantly in the bwoink's initial post. And they called me an "ass." Right away I was put on the back foot and treated as the villain instigator, especially when the chemist began insulting me and taking my tools.

2. Factually incorrect things taken as true, their opinion clearly based on the ahelping chemist rather than a simple look at the space.
The first bwoink says I need to let people "engage with their job content before you take over their entire space." As mentioned, my factory setup is less than 1/7th of the unexcavated space of the tramstation factory, so there's no way I could take over their entire space. I would never want to do that to a chemist, they were a screen away! And I felt like the chemist was uninterested in helping me, since when I asked for forma they shut down the request, so I just wanted to quickly make my small setup and go.

3. Admin's hostility and strange swearing continues when my response was as soft as I could make it:
me: "We can work together on the factory, I dont mean to step on their toes I just came in to quickly set up something for the medbay in this huge space that we have shared that we can both use"
admin: "Then you need to communicate that intent instead of swining your dick around "just because you can", its an asshole move and Im not going to tolerate it. This game relies on communication."

The above was what really made me feel terrible. The admin has painted me as a complete intolerable monster and instigator, painting a picture of me "swinging my dick just because I can." The contrast of what has transpired, where I felt like a chemist completely overstepped, swore at me, took my stuff and disrespected me, yet the admin seeing it as me being the complete monster, made me afraid of playing command roles or generally being in the spotlight for a good long time. I haven't played CMO since, and I felt so stressed that I had to switch statics for a while because I was worried of being further targeted by people with no way for me to resolve this IC because of admin reactions like this. It made me feel completely defenseless and targeted, like no one would care to look at the facts of the matter.

It was honestly a terrible feeling, and receiving messages like this from an admin means you can do nothing further IC. If I tried to demote that chemist, I can't even imagine the ire I would draw. Possibly a note or ban. I was pretty much shut down by this admin then and there.

4. Through my responses I managed to make the admin mellow down from "you're swinging your dick you asshole" to "it's not ENTIRELY one sided."
This was a small victory but it doesn't really nullify the horrible tone of the bwoink and the effect it had on me. I'm glad that the admin was able to put the brakes on and recognize that maybe it wasn't completely my fault, but I felt like they just said it to appease me, as they kept making arguments for the toxic chemist's behavior. Speaking of that:

5. Making arguments for the toxic behavior of others.
I found it very strange when the admin began justifying the chemist's language and actions in the bwoink, justifying why I was told to fuck off especially. Once again it was a one sided attack and I felt like there was zero care for me as a player, or for how this affected me at all. It was all about the chemist, and how I felt didn't matter.

And I agreed that more communication would have been good, which I do believe. Since I felt like the admin hated me, I didn't continue the conversation, but the appendix to that should be that I tried to start out by communicating with the chemist with the forma request, but immediately their response was negative, and once our disagreement started the chemist was shouting swear words at me - it's very difficult to communicate in such an environment, and it doesn't feel like they're interested in communication when they get to a point of welding doors and flinging swear words.

6. And finally - this should have been an IC issue all along!
After all this, I'm just left baffled as to why this situation required admin intervention at all. There have been far worse command players than I doing actual "dick swinging" as part of their regular repertoire and it's tolerated or seen as a gimmick, but when I had an argument with a worker and was handling it IC, I was also maliciously ahelped and bwoinked and attacked by the admin, swore at, and painted as the villain. It felt so hostile. So... unnecessary.

*** IN CONCLUSION: ***

So why make this complaint, and what do I hope to achieve here?

Most of all, I wanted Thedragmeme to see my side of the story and to really look at what happened in the shift rather than base it on the chemist's words alone. I've seen thedragmeme play a great CMO, and I believe they care about the medbay gameplay loop, and I'd like to believe that the reason they came down on me so hard was because they imagined a monster that wasn't there, some kind of terrible CMO that just does and takes as she pleases with no care for the crew, and them being an admin who cares for the medbay they came down on me hard to protect that. So my HOPE is that it comes from the right place, even if I disagree with the way it was handled. If Thedragmeme is acting in good faith then perhaps this post will help them mellow down a bit and consider how an admin's words can make someone feel or impact someone in the longer term. As it stands, I felt like I didn't matter at all to them. It doesn't help that on another occasion when I asked to be reassigned from blood brother (and the blood brother agreed), Thedragmeme did the bare minimum to search for another player, then gave up, shrugged and forced me to play it out anyway (ticket #4 in round 227212). So the CMO incident was not the first time I felt like the admin didn't care, it was just the one that affected me the most. But both events undermined my faith in whether my experience matters to admins at all.

So what would I like to be done here?

I'm mostly afraid that Thedragmeme will just come out guns blazing in a reply to this and aggressively double down, as they have in their other admin complaints. What I'd like is some sincere reassurance that they're really here to see the entire story and that they're here to help people out and resolve issues without making the players feel bad. I'd like Thedragmeme to investigate the issues beyond just reading the ahelp, but by going through the logs and seeing how an interaction really played out, because a player who hates me has no reason to be charitable in their ahelp and thus might say things like me taking their "entire" space, etc, and it was very discouraging that the admin just accept that as truth. And finally I'd like Thedragmeme to understand that an interaction like this, even if it doesn't result in a note, can really influence someone. It can be stressful and very negatively impact their enjoyment of the game or the willingness to play a department that we both care about.

Though, as I look at it, the ticket is still "left open" so I guess the funniest ending to this would be if they gave me a huge red note now that I drew attention to that... but I'll try to stay hopeful for a good ending instead!

[Drag]

I took no action against you, why is this a complaint instead of feedback?

Edit: Ill get to this later

[MatrixOne]

From what I've seen, feedback threads are positive and this is an issue that's not positive that I wanted to examine in detail and hoped to reach an amicable resolution, thus it appeared fitting to classify it as a complaint. The rules said complaints are not for bans, so I thought it didn't have to exclusively be about taking action. It'd also be strange if not taking action shields one from the consequences of their conduct within an adminhelp. I hope that makes sense.

[AwkwardStereo]

From what I've seen, feedback threads are positive and this is an issue that's not positive...

You can absolutely post negative feedback in a feedback thread. Not all consequences are bad, and not all feedback is good.

[Drag]

I was observing your interactions between the chemist and you, the reason why I stepped in is because *you were not staying in your lane in regards to building a chemical factory.* After the chemist had to make you leave and weld themselves in, you made active efforts to try to demote them. *I assumed you were acting in bad faith*. Taking any of the chemists space without permission, even if its a small section, is still destructive to any plans the chemist made for their factory. Even as the boss of the department, you need to let people have a chance to engage with their job. The chemist did in fact have a valid reason to tell you to fuck off, as it is enforcement of stay in your lane.

When I determined you were not acting in bad faith, and it was just a communication issue, I adjusted. I apologize for coming off so harshly, I have been actively working towards making sure my language is not as aggressive and this is an instance where I've failed to maintain the progress I've made. I generally swear a lot, as well. Edit: I should have apologized in the ticket when I realized it was just a communication issue, but I didn't. Thats my fault as well.

You were not the only person I talked to, I also spoke with the chemist and asked them to also communicate more on our MRP servers. While the chemist was entirely justified in telling you to fuck off, their escalation was not what I wanted to see on MRP. That was dealt with on the chemists end. Neither of you were noted.

Feedback threads are for both positive AND negative feedback. Unless you are wanting some kind of headmin review I don't really have much more to say than I already have.

[MatrixOne]

Thank you for responding.

I think our idea of the CMO's lane is a bit different, and that may have been a point of contention. I was led to believe that the CMO had free rein to work all aspects of medbay, and that meant they'd have to naturally work alongside the other employees and thus share their tools (surgery rooms, Pandemic, chem dispensers). And within CMO's lane, one could play according to their own strength and preference, perhaps focusing more on the command aspects, or on the surgery aspects, or on the chemistry which happens to be my skillset. In that sense, I was under the impression that I wasn't stepping out of my lane by creating a factory alongside my chemist especially since there was plenty of space for us both and they had the second constructor. The factory did not encroach on their space and took under 1/7th of the space available, and me making mine would also enable the chemist to move forward with their project without worrying about fulfilling my needs. In that sense I wanted to clear the road for both of us.

So if I may ask, I would very much appreciate a headmin review, as having a third party evaluate this would reassure me whether I'm correct or wrong on this idea. I've had robust CMO players tell me that if a chemist welded them out of lab it'd be grounds for demotion on the spot, and I was sure that even by NT standards the employee should be respectful of the CMO and work alongside them rather than react the way they did. Hearing you double down on this makes me worried, and a third party's opinion on the matter would help me put those issues at rest and make sure that I don't step outside my lane as CMO in the future either - but it'd seem shocking at CMO is not allowed to make a factory. It saddens me that you're doubling down on saying the chemist was justified on telling me to "fuck off" just because I wanted to make a small medicine factory in the medbay I'm supposed to run. The chemist did not, as you said, "have to make me leave and weld themselves in." They could have said something other than to "fuck off," and the fact that I didn't respond to a swear with open and eager discourse doesn't make me wrong in my opinion, one could expect a far worse reaction than mine. I didn't baton them, not even when they took my constructor. I simply left, and came back to a welded door...

I much appreciate you saying that you're trying to reduce the hostility of replies, as that was a big reason I wanted to make this complaint in the first place, to ask for that. I think in general swearing at your players can be very stressful on the receiving end because it feels like an authority figure hates you, is angry, and you're under crosshairs with the only impartial arbitrator flinging insults at you, calling you an asshole and a dick swinger.

In conclusion, I'd much appreciate a third party such as headmin weighing in on the CMO lane issue and generally whether I was really the instigator of this interaction and wasn't allowed to make a small factory in the first place. After that I'm happy to consider the topic resolved, and moved to "successful complaints" if the answer is that the CMO can reasonably make a factory alongside their employees, or "closed complaints" if not.

EDIT: And thank you for the apology and for saying I seemed to be acting in good faith, that makes me feel a little better about the whole thing.

[Drag]

I personally rule that heads of staff should be more delegators and slack picker uppers than "glorified x y x" on MRP.

If the chemist was not doing anything, that's one thing. However in this instance the chemist was actively making more space (Tram was the map this occurred on), and starting their factory. My main issue with this situation is that you wordlessly ran in, started making your own separate factory without communicating with your chemist on if you were putting your factory where they planned theirs(Of if they even wanted your help), then left and were trying to demote them. From an admin perspective you're being a dick to your chemist. If you need chems immediately you have access to the pharmacy. There was no outstanding emergency and it was near the start of the round.

Yes, the chemist could have been nicer. I did in fact bring that up, but from the chemists perspective you came into their space for no reason and were fucking with their stuff just because you could. There's a fine line between "I am the boss" and "I'm just going to do it because I can".

Headmins have been notified.

[MatrixOne]

From my side, I thought that CMO had a variety of playstyles that were valid, and the delegator was one but as valid as the others - like being an expert in their field and helping to fill a bunch of needs widely. Can we agree that a bunch of playstyles are possible, and a CMO doesn't just have to be the delegator? I was kind of excited to play CMO because I was hoping that being the "chemistry minded CMO" would be a bit of a fresh gimmick that's not seen as often, but after this I was left very discouraged and haven't played CMO again. So part of this complaint (and our conversation) is also deciding in my mind if I'm the right fit for the role at all, and this was just a bad misunderstanding, or if I should stay well away. I'd appreciate a headmin (or any observer) to let me know, it can be in PM or elsewhere since I think only select people can reply here.

I agree more communication from both of me and the chemist could have helped a lot, though I feel like I was way more open to communication than they were - I reached out earlier with the forma, and I thought it was respectful of me to actually leave them to their work and just fulfill the medbay need by making my setup separately from theirs (they were on the right side and I made my tiny setup in the center.) I didn't in any way "fuck" with their stuff, I used a constructor they didn't touch, and used a space they were far away from. That's why it was so shocking when they said I was taking their space and you agreed with them. Tram is the biggest factory space of all.
EDIT: And it was them messing with the CMO's medbay by welding it shut and taking my tools, in my opinion.

[Drag]

I do in fact agree with you in terms of playstyles, as I've already addressed my main issue was the lack of communication. When I look at these kinds of cases I have to determine the implications for both people. When one person says they're being messed with, and the other party didn't communicate, I'm inclined to agree with them. Even if your playstyle is valid so is theirs. Even if you don't MEAN to mess with people if you don't communicate that's still what happens.

[MatrixOne]

I think we agree then, but if there's a clear conflict of interest, for instance suppose the chemist wants to make a factory in the entire space, on a smaller map, and the CMO wants to use the entire space for themselves, you'd rule for the chemist, right? Even though the CMO is higher in chain of command, and is supposed to "own/run" the medbay, you'd relegate the CMO to the pharmacy rather than their employee, and possibly enforce it via ahelp rather than allow IC resolutions (because IC resolutions would always favor CMO since they have the authority.) Am I correct?

It's just hard to understand why the admin ruling seems to go against the station law and chain of command. And I'm not a CMO player, this was one of my first CMO shifts so it's not like I'm that incentivized to protect CMO status against all odds, I'm a chemist main! It's just that CMO should hold priority appears logical to me by station law.

[Drag]

That's a really broad situation that you've described, and I do in fact look at nuances, but in this case I did rule in favor of the chemist. As a reminder our server rules will always be above in character chain of command. If you as a CMO want to use the entire chemistry floor space for your own factory, and you have a chemist doing the same thing...just play as a chemist.

MRP Rule 9 states:

This means that you should do the job you signed up for and not try and do other people’s jobs for them or lay claim to their department. If you need something from another player you should attempt to ask them to get it for you instead of just taking it. Straying from your lane at the expense of another player should only be done where strictly necessary.

MRP Rule 9 Precedent 4 states:

Players are free to seek alternate routes that do not impinge on the games of other players to obtain the things they want where normal routes are closed to them.

I'm mostly looking at

Code: Select all

Straying from your lane at the expense of another player should only be done where strictly necessary.

Its not strictly necessary as a cmo to do a factory when a chemist is already doing a factory.

If you're infringing on the entire job content of your underling when they are available and willing to do their job, that's not fair from a rule perspective. If the CMO wants to do a factory, and the chemist doesn't want the CMO to and the Chemist isn't actually doing a factory then yeah, ignore that chemist. The context matters for these kinds of situation, and the defining factor for me mostly stems from "Is this person trying to engage with their game content in a reasonable manner?"

[MatrixOne]

I think it'd be very difficult to call most actions "strictly necessary" as this is a fairly broad game with lots of alternative ways to play. Saying "just play chemist if you want to make a factory" would imply that factories are the only way a chemist can play, which is not true at all. When I latejoin chem past 50min I don't touch factories because the setup time is too long, and still have very productive shifts from just dispensers alone. So even in the above situation, a CMO might want to use the factory space for a factory and spend maybe the first 30 minutes making it, and after that they'd use the meds and use it to support CMO gameplay of general healing. I'm not convinced that a CMO who has a vision for a factory that'll help them heal and do their job all shift has any less right to use the space than a chemist, especially since chemists have other avenues to play.

Therefore it's not infringing on the entire job content of a chemist. But naturally the CMO has more avenues to play than the chemist, so in that sense they're impeded less by giving up the factory space, and I recognize that, I don't wanna defend that. Rather, it just seems to me that command people are known and allowed to have their gimmicks and sometimes it means stepping on the toes of their employees because of how broadly a command player can play. So some leeway for command should be allowed in my opinion, and is, except for an unfortunate circumstance I found myself in, it seems.

That said, it's true that communication can resolve a lot of these dilemmas in the end. Anyway, I appreciate your replies and that you were willing to engage with my hypothetical. I understand if you're busy and don't wanna continue this topic, so don't feel the need to respond further. The thread can be closed but I'd much like to hear an outside opinion of a headmin on these topics in general, so I'd like to wait for that if possible before closing.

I think one final thought is that the person who's the first to create an adminhelp isn't always the one in the right, but maybe it feels like they're more likely to be right because they're the first to describe their situation (and likely paint it in their favor). But an admin doesn't know what they may be leaving out without investigating. That's kind of scary to me as a player.

EDIT: Also, another thought - it's not strictly necessary for CMO to make a factory when the chemist already is making one, but what if the chemist is not making a medicine factory? I think the chemist who told me to fuck off was making a meth/stimulant factory, or at least I know they make these often. I make healing medicines that I need for medbay.

[Imitates-The-Lizards]

I think one final thought is that the person who's the first to create an adminhelp isn't always the one in the right, but maybe it feels like they're more likely to be right because they're the first to describe their situation (and likely paint it in their favor). But an admin doesn't know what they may be leaving out without investigating. That's kind of scary to me as a player.

EDIT: Also, another thought - it's not strictly necessary for CMO to make a factory when the chemist already is making one, but what if the chemist is not making a medicine factory? I think the chemist who told me to fuck off was making a meth/stimulant factory, or at least I know they make these often. I make healing medicines that I need for medbay.

All right, I'm stepping in here, posting as relevant since I was this oft-mentioned in this complaint chemist.

I want to take the time to clarify and add context for a few things. Firstly, and this isn't your fault, I had spent quite a few shifts trying my best to get a successful chemical factory running, but there was ALWAYS something that went wrong (9 times out of 10, it was having no power because of the current scuffed state of the power code being updated and engineering being full of new players), so by this point I was very frustrated after failing repeatedly to get the most basic tasks of my job done. Secondly, you didn't ask me to make oxandrolone or salicylic acid or anything, just formaldehyde, when we had no silver to even accomplish that task in the first place (which I mentioned in your logs you posted), so I felt pretty justified in turning down that request, but if you asked me to make a different actually completable chemical, I would have done so, and in fact, if you really want me to, I can dig up logs of me doing so on a different shift for a different CMO who requested a whole slew of chemicals from me. Thirdly, although the space in the chemical factory on tram is larger than a lot of the maps, not only do you have to mine out a lot of space to make the cave uniform, you actually can't just place down chemistry equipment anywhere - you have to actively tile the space... which you didn't do, you just took up the small portion of already tiled space, forcing me to do extra tiling work on the side of the cave to accommodate my own factory.

So, when you add all this together, you have me, trying to do the job I signed up for, having to dig my own workplace out of the asteroid, when you just barged in, without asking me to make stuff (or at least stuff that I could actually complete) for you, and took up my already very limited workspace, after I was already very frustrated from not being able to do my job due to repeated failures on the part of other players.

So I told you to fuck off.

Was this the best approach I could have taken? No. I should have been like "Excuse me CMO, I would prefer if you asked me to make you chemicals instead of just rushing in here and making them yourself.". However, I'm human too, and humans have emotions. If we didn't, we wouldn't be any different from a rock or a salted fish, and I felt like you had stepped on my toes for what was like the 10th shift in a row as a chemist for me where someone else messed things up for me.

I'm sorry for being hostile and venting my frustrations on you, that was wrong of me, and I apologize, but I hope you understand more about the situation now.

How does this relate to the section I quoted of your post?

Well, the thing is, I didn't ahelp you at all! In fact, I got bwoinked myself and told I should be more communicative in the future - which was true.

[Timberpoes Edit - Removed peanut parts unrelated to the complaint/commentary on parts the player wasn't involved in.]

[MatrixOne]

Hi Imitates, thank you for sharing your side of the story. I'm really surprised you weren't the one to ahelp this, and I'm sorry for assuming so!

In light of this, I'm even more baffled as to why this required admin intervention at all. I assumed Thedragmeme was forced into stepping in by an ahelp, but it seems they actually just took it upon themselves to start flinging insults at me which makes this all the worse. I'm hoping that if a headmin chooses to review this situation they agree that this isn't the right conduct. It feels like this should have been left to IC resolution doubly so in light of no ahelp from either of us. An admin taking it upon themselves to stop an IC disagreement between employer and employee that was completely non-violent seems very out of place to me.

Firstly, and this isn't your fault, I had spent quite a few shifts trying my best to get a successful chemical factory running, but there was ALWAYS something that went wrong (9 times out of 10, it was having no power because of the current scuffed state of the power code being updated and engineering being full of new players), so by this point I was very frustrated after failing repeatedly to get the most basic tasks of my job done.

Honestly, I 100% get that. As a chemistry main I keep dealing with stubbed toe shuttlecalls before my factory could reasonably be built or provide any relevance to the shift, or with power issues making all my work just wasted time. Chem can be very tiring if shifts like these stack and anyone could be frustrated with that. And I agree that it's a human thing and understandable to get angry or react. From my perspective it still came out of nowhere and was a very sudden and very hostile thing to experience, so hopefully you see where I'm coming from too. It was enough to stop me from playing CMO since then and I switched statics because I felt like I was getting hate from players and admins and wanted to experience the game as a blank slate.

if you asked me to make a different actually completable chemical, I would have done so

That's good to hear and a relief! I hope you understand why from my perspective, after being turned down once, I wouldn't be comfortable asking about other stuff and just assumed you'd like to be left alone. I actually tried to be respectful to your modus operandi by not pestering you for chems after you showed didn't want to be. In retrospect I should have asked again if you were willing, but by me coming in to just make my fast, small factory was meant to resolve my needs and also enable you, the chemist, to continue building your project without having to deal with mine. I honestly was hoping you'd appreciate it. But I should have communicated that rather than assumed, as we have established.

So, when you add all this together, you have me, trying to do the job I signed up for, having to dig my own workplace out of the asteroid, when you just barged in, without asking me to make stuff (or at least stuff that I could actually complete) for you, and took up my already very limited workspace, after I was already very frustrated from not being able to do my job due to repeated failures on the part of other players.

So I told you to fuck off.

While I can understand the frustration, I'm still baffled as to the Tram factory space issue. The cave is *massive.* Easily 220 tiles are already excavated, while my factory is an 8x4+4 space, 36 tiles total. I can't agree that this factory could limit you in any way when you were working a screen away on the distant right side of the cave. I'm happy to agree that it added some tiling work for you because I built on the pre-tiled ground that came stock with the factory, but tiling is lightning quick and you get hundreds of tiles provided through the roundstart materials. No other place is as large and as enabling of two or more people making their setups. I just can't agree that a CMO coming in to make their medicine factory when a chemist is a screen away building meth is in any way messing things up for the chemist in a cave as huge as this, or that it's straying from the CMO's lane, and especially I can't agree that it warrants robbing the CMO, welding them out, and flinging profanity at them. And I don't want to take away from the frustrations that come with being hampered from all directions in one's factory making because I've been there and I get that regularly. I can empathize with that but at the same time I want to hold firm to my side of the situation, I hope that makes sense.

I would argue that if I told you to make sali/oxa it'd take *way more* time out of your shift and your project than me doing it myself and you only having to put down a couple of tiles. In that sense I wasn't holding you back but enabling you to work uninterrupted. I can see that in the moment it might have looked or felt like an imposition but hopefully you can see my logic here and understand that it was never meant to be that way.

Since the admin stepped in more on your behalf, do you feel like their involvement was warranted and justified in this case? Don't you think we should have just been allowed to resolve this IC?

In any case thank you very much for showing your part of the story, and I apologize for calling you toxic in my post. I just couldn't imagine an admin treating me with this much hostility out of their own initiative, I was convinced it had to come from somewhere, like a really terrible ahelp.

[Drag]

I am very tired of repeating myself, I have already explained where my hostility came from at the start of this conversation, and I have apologized for it.

I'm very tired of reading walls of text so I'm not going to anymore. As far as I'm concerned this is just feedback, since the only headmin review you have requested is getting their opinion on my stay in your lane ruling. I will not be looking at this anymore unless the headmins make me. Ive made my point over and over again and have nothing else to add.

[Timberpoes]

!

Message from: Timberpoes

Just to prevent a back-and-forth conversation and limit posts that aren't directly relevant to the complaint itself with regards to thedragmeme's contested ticket conduct, now you've both had the opportunity to post about the context of the shift as a whole I think that's all that the headmins and thedragmeme need in general for background info. I invite you both to utilise the Player's Club on the forums to create and/or chat about this in a peanut post, or to the Discord, or to forum DMs, or to Discord DMs, or really any place else other than this specific complaint thread for any additional tête-à-tête.

[dendydoom]

hello, internet's been spotty the last couple of days so i've only just seen this, but i'd like to clarify that headmins review every complaint that is received, and it's no different in this case.

feedback is for comments about admin conduct that is intended to be received by the admin themselves. complaints are when a player would like headmins to review a specific incident that they believe goes against admin conduct. on preliminary i believe that there's no good reason not to investigate this complaint, and we will be doing so.

EDIT:
and to add to what timber said, normally peanut policy is stricter in these threads and i'd sweep a lot of what has been interjected here, but in the spirit of allowing grounds for mutual understanding to be extended between players over a conflict i will absolutely allow it. thank you for being mature and sincere in communicating with each other.

[dendydoom]

hello,

we have reviewed this incident and will be upholding this complaint.

firstly, we will address the matter of this application of rp rule 9:

we found the incident which caused this ahelp to be entirely IC. staying in your lane is intended to be used for cases where uninvolved and unrelated people walk in and steal someone's job because they don't want to have to roleplay, because there is no mechanical restriction on the application of game knowledge. cases such as security operating on a prisoner in medbay when medical staff are on hand to do it, or an assistant shoving an engineer aside to set up the sm because they can "do it properly" are within the realm of possible applications of this policy:

This rule is rooted in the experience of the players behind the characters you will interact with, remember this when playing and avoid justifying stamping on other’s experiences for personal gain.

in this instance the CMO was in disagreement with the chemist about how their job should be performed. it was not a case of stealing their job from them, it was a case that they were defied and were in the process of navigating that situation as the head of that department. an IC situation with the end goal being the CMO attempting to make their medbay operational in the way they see fit, despite the protests of their chemist. we do not find it to be the case where the intention of the CMO was to outright steal the job of the chemist in bad faith for personal gain or in any OOC way, but rather the conflict was rooted in a dispute over the management of medbay, which falls within the CMO's jurisdiction wholly:

Players are free to seek alternate routes that do not impinge on the games of other players to obtain the things they want where normal routes are closed to them. (An assistant that wishes to help a cyborg get upgrades while a roboticist is busy making mechs for security or augmenting patients may freely make use of a maintenance robotics bay, for example)

if the chemist does not follow the orders they are given by their department head and deny the CMO the medicine they want, then it stands to reason that at the very least they should be able to seek it out themselves, especially when it concerns their own department.

since the CMO is the head of medbay, we consider their lane to be medbay. they are there to delegate, run aspects of it as necessary to get their medbay operational in the way that they want, and they are entitled to give relevant orders to their subordinates, and those subordinates are expected to follow or defy those orders with the consequences being IC. with total honesty, if it were me in that situation being told to fuck off and welded out of a part of my own medbay, they would not only be facing a demotion, but also the nearest table being applied to their head.

secondly, we will address the ruling admin's conduct:

we are in absolute agreement that the tone and aggression used in this ticket is entirely unnecessary and unreasonable. we did not find any outward indication that either player was acting in bad faith, and in choosing to initiate an interaction in this way, the admin has made the decision to set the tone of the ticket going forward at that heightened level.

we don't expect our admins to have to be toothy smiles and customer service voices, but we do expect them to be reasonable, understanding and patient when interacting with players who give no reason not to be. we are expected to set the example of conduct for players, and if our conduct doesn't exemplify the behaviour that we're asking for, then it's a hypocritical expectation to set for players while refusing to do it ourselves. not good.

the conduct shown in this ticket is not the way we want admins approaching conflict resolution, and is not the way we want our players to be spoken to by anyone, let alone our own administration team. this is not how we want admins investigating and addressing player disputes in any capacity.

it should never be the player's responsibility to mediate the emotions of the admin, and it is a shame to see it in practice here.

this situation, all in all, encapsulates what we don't want to see from admin conduct.

unfortunately we've found this to be indicative of a pattern of behaviour that we've extended multiple chances to address, and more chances would be asking too much of our players. drag is a good person who has been an admin with us for a long while and has committed a lot of time and effort to our servers, but i cannot in good conscience allow this admin conduct to continue.

as a result, we have chosen to deadmin thedragmeme.

thank you for your time.