/tg/Station 13

When and where this incident occured (Game Server, forums, Discord): Game server
Byond account and character name OR Discord name: Virescent
Admin: Starlord_Gwyn and Justice12354 (it has something to do with both)
ROUND ID HERE IF APPLICABLE: 211306

Detailed summary:

Hey there, I never thought I'd write another complaint but here we go...
So I was a Curator that round. I decided to do space exploring, but all the jetpacks in EVA were already taken by the crew. I needed an alternative, so I decided to take the Captain's MODsuit. I used AI's help for that, didn't even sabotage the doors to get in. After taking it, I was walking around the station for a bit to gather all the other neccesities, but someone (assuming it was the det that round) noticed me because while I was in the Aux Base, Captain suddenly hand-tele'd inside alongside det whom hold a batong. I tried running through the portal and then back, but I had no chance of escaping. The MODsuit made me obviously slower, so I capture was inevitable. Instead, the Captain pulled out a sword and started hitting me in the head with it. I never used any lethal force or anything to hurt, I just tried shoving him away. Even after getting into obvious crit, he not only executed me on spot, but also beheaded me and round removed me. He caught me while I was slow, away from any potential tiders, and even alongside the det whom intended to use batong. He could've subjugated me so easily, but he chose the path of murderboning. Mind you, I had the curator's whip with me, so I could've just smacked him with it, steal his sword and cut his head open at least, but I was no real threat to him.

Anyways after all this, I ahelped it. Starlord Gwyn was the one to take the ticket and after questioning me a few times, they marked it as an IC issue. I brought up how when I as a HoP used lethal lasers to either kill (rarely, mostly just critted them) groups of tiders or even just shoo them off with one or two hits for actively seeking out to break in, break my stuff and ignore my warnings and how I got reprimanded for it (by Justice12354, hence why I mention them). Starlord_Gwyn stated that each admin can apparently approach the rules somehow differently or something along the lines. Does it mean that the rules are not hardwritten and can be bent according to admin's bias?

Moving on, the handling admin stated that me taking the MODsuit goes under the Capital crimes because I apparently stole an item of high value. Not only does the law not mention the modsuit, it also states "when in doubt use common sense when you see certain items that are stolen that can cause massive problems throughout the station.". If I stole the antique laser? Sure, that would count as capital crime as it's the best available gun at roundstart. But Captain's MODsuit being an item of high value and going under Capital crimes? That's the same as if I stole Captain's stamp and got executed for it. Some of the items that are included in just Theft are for example Spacesuits (aka modsuits too). I don't see the modsuit being an item of high value, let alone a reason to outright execute and RR someone. Not everything that's inside Captain's office counts as high value item. Not to mention that EVEN IF the Captain was in the right, he just straight up killed some other people who merely trepassed on his place and for some reason only spared the Clown (only to lethal him a bit later) so he was definitely not acting accordingly to the Space law, he was merely murderboning because he could.

In conclusion, I disagree with the Admin's decision to mark this as an IC issue. I can't tell for sure why the decision was made to let me just get murderboned while also being reprimanded for much lesser things. Is it bias? Is it because the Captain is the famous Youtuber? Is it because of what happened in the past between us? I don't know, seriously (hence why the question mark). And so I wish for someone else, someone who always proved to be an unbiased source, to please judge this situation.

Did you... Break into the Captain's Office with the help of the AI, steal his modsuit, get killed for it then pikoh when an admin just ruled it an IC issue?

Breaking into the Captain's office is generally considered an antagonistic move and typically results in you being considered one which, under rule 4, opens you up to retaliation. This is because the vast majority of things in the Captain's office are either traitor objectives or nuke op objectives.

!	Message from: Timberpoes
	Edited out peanut parts.

Timberpoes wrote: ↑Sat Jul 29, 2023 4:47 pm Did you... Break into the Captain's Office with the help of the AI, steal his modsuit, get killed for it then pikoh when an admin just ruled it an IC issue?

Not sure what pikoh means but yeah, I took the modsuit, got offed and RRed for it and didn't agree with it being an IC issue, hence why I came here. Like I said, not everything in Captain's office is an item of high value. For example his stamp or the chain of command do not count as such.

Okay it says that I cannot use certain BB codes such as m-o-d so I will just post it here: I mean I would probably understand if I was critted, Hell even the killing is a tiny bit understandable but round removal? He could've easily whacked me with the batong alongside the det (both were faster than me and I didnt use any lethal force or anything at all), then all he had to do was to look inside. If he found it full of his stuff with bugs smacked on it, grounds for immediate execution. If he really found something of high value inside, it would still be an asshole move but it would be grounds for execution. Instead he just outright kills me, cuts my head off and THEN tries to take the mo-dsuit off. And afterwards, he forbid my revival. Plus, the mo-dsuit itself is not an objective.

Virescent wrote: ↑Sat Jul 29, 2023 4:20 pm Starlord_Gwyn stated that each admin can apparently approach the rules somehow differently or something along the lines. Does it mean that the rules are not hardwritten and can be bent according to admin's bias?

I believe Gwyn was referring to rule 0, which reads as:

https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Rules wrote: Rule 0: Enforcement of these rules is at the discretion of admins.

I've basically poked Gwyn not to respond to this complaint just yet until we get to the bottom of what you're complaining about and if it warrants an admin response.

I think I can tell you in no uncertain terms that theft from the Captain's Office as a concept will make you valid to be killed on sight and probably perma'd, maybe not round removed but it would depend on IC other factors and context as to whether you'd be Rule 4 valid.

Theft of any reasonably valuable item from the Captain's Office will make you Rule 4 valid. The Captain's Modsuit is absolutely a reasonably valuable item. Players will absolute be able to treat you as if you're an antagonist on stealing these kinds of items, and as per Rule 4 antagonists can be killed and round removed. And that's some very basic administrative stuff.

So that brings us to a key point, the scenario of a player stealing the Captain's Modsuit and getting caught is valid for an admin to IC issue a round removal. Is there anything other than ruling this an IC issue that you have a problem with overall, since I honestly think that part of the complaint is just a non-starter.

Virescent wrote: ↑Sat Jul 29, 2023 4:20 pm Moving on, the handling admin stated that me taking the MODsuit goes under the Capital crimes because I apparently stole an item of high value. Not only does the law not mention the modsuit, it also states "when in doubt use common sense when you see certain items that are stolen that can cause massive problems throughout the station."

https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Space_Law

Grand theft also states:

This is by no means a exhaustive list of items that are high value to the syndicate

and

Remember if something is locked up in a secure area it probably should not be taken without prior permission.

Additionally, space law is a roleplay suggestion in general. Space law is not official policy.

To add some clarification to this round: It was 3rd tider who broke into caps in 10 minutes almost roundstart, one stole spare, other just walled of doors and hes rob captain's office. Only person who he should ahelp was asimov AI who put human into danger.
edit. Rewatched the record, he stole hand tele too. Talking about "non antag items".

kinnebian wrote: ↑Sat Jul 29, 2023 5:46 pm

Virescent wrote: ↑Sat Jul 29, 2023 4:20 pm Starlord_Gwyn stated that each admin can apparently approach the rules somehow differently or something along the lines. Does it mean that the rules are not hardwritten and can be bent according to admin's bias?

I believe Gwyn was referring to rule 0, which reads as:

https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Rules wrote: Rule 0: Enforcement of these rules is at the discretion of admins.

Seems like I misinterpreted the meaning of thos rule.

Timberpoes wrote: ↑Sat Jul 29, 2023 5:55 pm I've basically poked Gwyn not to respond to this complaint just yet until we get to the bottom of what you're complaining about and if it warrants an admin response.

I think I can tell you in no uncertain terms that theft from the Captain's Office as a concept will make you valid to be killed on sight and probably perma'd, maybe not round removed but it would depend on IC other factors and context as to whether you'd be Rule 4 valid.

Theft of any reasonably valuable item from the Captain's Office will make you Rule 4 valid. The Captain's Modsuit is absolutely a reasonably valuable item. Players will absolute be able to treat you as if you're an antagonist on stealing these kinds of items, and as per Rule 4 antagonists can be killed and round removed. And that's some very basic administrative stuff.

So that brings us to a key point, the scenario of a player stealing the Captain's Modsuit and getting caught is valid for an admin to IC issue a round removal. Is there anything other than ruling this an IC issue that you have a problem with overall, since I honestly think that part of the complaint is just a non-starter.

If you say it, then I accept the decision. Seems like I just embarrassed myself here and if this goes into peanut thread, I'll probably get some shit thrown on me but it's deserved I guess. So go on haters, show me your worst.
Also just to clarify, don't take my words with even the slightest pinch of salt. I'm being serious and one of the people who's decision here I trust the most.

Lacran wrote: ↑Sat Jul 29, 2023 6:04 pm

Virescent wrote: ↑Sat Jul 29, 2023 4:20 pm Moving on, the handling admin stated that me taking the MODsuit goes under the Capital crimes because I apparently stole an item of high value. Not only does the law not mention the modsuit, it also states "when in doubt use common sense when you see certain items that are stolen that can cause massive problems throughout the station."

https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Space_Law

Grand theft also states:

This is by no means a exhaustive list of items that are high value to the syndicate

and

Remember if something is locked up in a secure area it probably should not be taken without prior permission.

I don't have the strenght to argue about that part anymore since Timberpoes made it clear.

Dax Dupont wrote: ↑Sat Jul 29, 2023 6:40 pm Additionally, space law is a roleplay suggestion in general. Space law is not official policy.

I mean, doesn't it still hold a huge importance? Otherwise Captain's could just execute and behead anyone who merely shoves them once.

Livrah wrote: ↑Sat Jul 29, 2023 10:28 pm To add some clarification to this round: It was 3rd tider who broke into caps in 10 minutes almost roundstart, one stole spare, other just walled of doors and hes rob captain's office. Only person who he should ahelp was asimov AI who put human into danger.
edit. Rewatched the record, he stole hand tele too. Talking about "non antag items".

I thought it was the det. If the AI willingly aided in my certain death than it's pretty cringe and rulebreaking. Still tho, why didn't you just use baton? I was a cherry picking for you, you and det had me at your mercy due to horrible slowdown. Not to mention you did shoot others to death, but never RRed them or beheaded them.

As for the hand tele, isn't it something that ends up in the hands of regular crewmembers over 90% of the time? Does it even count as a high value item? Not to mention you found it after you had me executed and forbid my revival.

Virescent wrote: ↑Sun Jul 30, 2023 1:16 am As for the hand tele, isn't it something that ends up in the hands of regular crewmembers over 90% of the time? Does it even count as a high value item? Not to mention you found it after you had me executed and forbid my revival.

The hand tele is very well known to be high-value and yes, you can arrest people for having it if they don't have permission.

Archie700 wrote: ↑Sun Jul 30, 2023 2:06 am

Virescent wrote: ↑Sun Jul 30, 2023 1:16 am As for the hand tele, isn't it something that ends up in the hands of regular crewmembers over 90% of the time? Does it even count as a high value item? Not to mention you found it after you had me executed and forbid my revival.

The hand tele is very well known to be high-value and yes, you can arrest people for having it if they don't have permission.

Kinda hilarious that a high-value item ends up in non-Command and non-Security hands for vast majority of the time and it's spawn placement is also hilarious. Tho as some people confirmed to me, Space Law doesn't matter or apply really.

I think this one has run its course.

If there's more to the Justice part of this complaint, then feel free to open a new one individually.

I can't see a relevant note/ban from Justice, but if there is it would need to be successfully appealed before any complaint about it could be entered.

If there isn't, then I can't rank the positive outcome of any complaint that high since they chose not to even note you.