"Hi there, would you like to sign my petition?"
https://chng.it/rnTMMgTwmJ
I know that link looks a little fishy but I promise you it's a change.org link and that they just screwed with how they format their URL with petition links, idk why. I even have what I assume to be an admin (because red name, username Scriptis) tell me to post it here instead of just posting it once each session upon join.
Not sure if it matters but this is specifically created for Sybil.a
Dunno what else to say, if I'm posting this in the right place, or if it'll gain any traction, but with any hope, the petition's description speaks for itself and does somethin' about the atrocity of abysmal design that is TramStation (and also replacing Ice Box with OG Box).
Petition to Remove Tram (and also other stuff)
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LunaticLizzie
- Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2022 7:40 pm
- Byond Username: Lunatic Lizzie
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Farquaar
- Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2018 7:20 am
- Byond Username: Farquaar
- Location: Delta Quadrant
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Time-Green
- Code Maintainer
- Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2016 6:09 pm
- Byond Username: Time-Green
Re: Petition to Remove Tram (and also other stuff)
You can just add a poll to your post without pointlesly using third-party websites
Also tram is great learn to cope
Also tram is great learn to cope
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blackdav123
- TGMC Administrator
- Joined: Sat Dec 18, 2021 10:04 pm
- Byond Username: Blackdav123
Re: Petition to Remove Tram (and also other stuff)
what if we had a map where it was a big square hallway with the bridge in the middle and departments on the sides
Weston Echard on Sybil
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LunaticLizzie
- Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2022 7:40 pm
- Byond Username: Lunatic Lizzie
Re: Petition to Remove Tram (and also other stuff)
Mind you, I initially just wanted to post the change link once each time I joined, but an admin told me to post it here instead. I literally have not used this forum prior to this post lolTime-Green wrote: ↑Sun Nov 06, 2022 7:54 pm You can just add a poll to your post without pointlesly using third-party websites
Also tram is great learn to cope
Also also, I can't "cope" with my internet and computer being completely unable to handle the tram's existence, and I am not the only one.
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Rohen_Tahir
- Joined: Wed Jun 05, 2019 1:00 pm
- Byond Username: Rohen Tahir
- Location: Primary fool storage
- Contact:
Re: Petition to Remove Tram (and also other stuff)
Easy fix:LunaticLizzie wrote: ↑Sun Nov 06, 2022 8:49 pmMind you, I initially just wanted to post the change link once each time I joined, but an admin told me to post it here instead. I literally have not used this forum prior to this post lolTime-Green wrote: ↑Sun Nov 06, 2022 7:54 pm You can just add a poll to your post without pointlesly using third-party websites
Also tram is great learn to cope
Also also, I can't "cope" with my internet and computer being completely unable to handle the tram's existence, and I am not the only one.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPKvX3Bg6KM
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BlueMemesauce
- Joined: Fri Mar 01, 2019 2:05 pm
- Byond Username: BlueMemesauce
Re: Petition to Remove Tram (and also other stuff)
Tramstation seems cool but the tram is just laggy and goes such a short distance that it's pointless. Whenever it's tramstation, I just bolt open the hallways to the bottom and top of the tram so that people can walk along those hallways faster than the tram. It's dumb that the only reason tram is used is because the hallways are blocked off by restricted access doors; I feel like if the tram traveled a longer distance it would actually have a purpose.
Icebox is alright after the snow seems to have stopped fucking up atmos more than literal space. Although it's still too easy to just fuck off into the wilderness whenever you want. The game was designed for being trapped on a space station, having a whole planet to run off to messes up the flow of gameplay.
Icebox is alright after the snow seems to have stopped fucking up atmos more than literal space. Although it's still too easy to just fuck off into the wilderness whenever you want. The game was designed for being trapped on a space station, having a whole planet to run off to messes up the flow of gameplay.
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Jacquerel
- Code Maintainer
- Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2014 8:10 pm
- Byond Username: Becquerel
Re: Petition to Remove Tram (and also other stuff)
Tram is good.
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Indie-ana Jones
- Joined: Mon Aug 26, 2019 6:15 pm
- Byond Username: Indie-ana Jones
Re: Petition to Remove Tram (and also other stuff)
Ignore forumposters, Tram generally tends to kill the server population whenever it gets chosen (it only gets picked when Trammers start a vote when everyone is busy with something in-game), I think its pretty clear the majority of players, at least on Sybil, do not like Tram.
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Rohen_Tahir
- Joined: Wed Jun 05, 2019 1:00 pm
- Byond Username: Rohen Tahir
- Location: Primary fool storage
- Contact:
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TheFinalPotato
- Code Maintainer
- Joined: Sun Oct 13, 2019 7:58 am
- Byond Username: LemonInTheDark
Re: Petition to Remove Tram (and also other stuff)
A: never call the maptainers admins ever again
B: opinion noted and ignored
B: opinion noted and ignored
My ancestors are smiling at me, Imperials. Can you say the same?
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Helios
- Joined: Mon May 05, 2014 5:07 pm
- Byond Username: Shodansbreak
Re: Petition to Remove Tram (and also other stuff)
I like Tram.
How bad is the lag when Singulos eats the Tram?
How bad is the lag when Singulos eats the Tram?
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LunaticLizzie
- Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2022 7:40 pm
- Byond Username: Lunatic Lizzie
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LunaticLizzie
- Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2022 7:40 pm
- Byond Username: Lunatic Lizzie
Re: Petition to Remove Tram (and also other stuff)
My apologies for not being ensconced in the Seven Layers of SS13 Hell man, I just play the game. Have never set foot on the Discord. Don't even have Discord. I literally didn't even know this forum existed before Scriptis told me to post the petition here instead of dropping it in OOC chat upon join. Probably not going to use it outside of this post.TheFinalPotato wrote: ↑Mon Nov 07, 2022 12:57 am A: never call the maptainers admins ever again
B: opinion noted and ignored
And as an aside,
You're not doing a very good job ignoring it by posting a snarky reply, you know.
And as an aside aside,
As it says in the petition's description, my problem with tram is not just that I don't like it, it's that it is an unplayable experience for me, and reportedly, for numerous other players. If you need a God-tier PC to render a single map in a decade-and-then-some old pixel game, maybe that map isn't fit for play, technically impressive as it may be. All I'm saying.
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blackdav123
- TGMC Administrator
- Joined: Sat Dec 18, 2021 10:04 pm
- Byond Username: Blackdav123
Re: Petition to Remove Tram (and also other stuff)
because of multi Z singulo only eats the lower floor and never touches the tram
Weston Echard on Sybil
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Misdoubtful
- In-Game Game Master
- Joined: Sat Feb 01, 2020 7:03 pm
- Byond Username: Misdoubtful
- Location: Delivering hugs!
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Farquaar
- Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2018 7:20 am
- Byond Username: Farquaar
- Location: Delta Quadrant
Re: Petition to Remove Tram (and also other stuff)
This reply may have been funny in concept, but probably not a great response to a new player trying to engage with the community, however misguided they might be.TheFinalPotato wrote: ↑Mon Nov 07, 2022 12:57 am A: never call the maptainers admins ever again
B: opinion noted and ignored
► Show Spoiler
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MMMiracles
- Code Maintainer
- Joined: Fri Aug 29, 2014 2:27 am
- Byond Username: MMMiracles
- Github Username: MMMiracles
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Rohen_Tahir
- Joined: Wed Jun 05, 2019 1:00 pm
- Byond Username: Rohen Tahir
- Location: Primary fool storage
- Contact:
Re: Petition to Remove Tram (and also other stuff)
Do you have a 32 bit laptop or something?LunaticLizzie wrote: ↑Mon Nov 07, 2022 2:56 amMy apologies for not being ensconced in the Seven Layers of SS13 Hell man, I just play the game. Have never set foot on the Discord. Don't even have Discord. I literally didn't even know this forum existed before Scriptis told me to post the petition here instead of dropping it in OOC chat upon join. Probably not going to use it outside of this post.TheFinalPotato wrote: ↑Mon Nov 07, 2022 12:57 am A: never call the maptainers admins ever again
B: opinion noted and ignored
And as an aside,
You're not doing a very good job ignoring it by posting a snarky reply, you know.
And as an aside aside,
As it says in the petition's description, my problem with tram is not just that I don't like it, it's that it is an unplayable experience for me, and reportedly, for numerous other players. If you need a God-tier PC to render a single map in a decade-and-then-some old pixel game, maybe that map isn't fit for play, technically impressive as it may be. All I'm saying.
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TheFinalPotato
- Code Maintainer
- Joined: Sun Oct 13, 2019 7:58 am
- Byond Username: LemonInTheDark
Re: Petition to Remove Tram (and also other stuff)
Lemme be a bit more straight up with you.LunaticLizzie wrote: ↑Mon Nov 07, 2022 2:56 am My apologies for not being ensconced in the Seven Layers of SS13 Hell man, I just play the game. Have never set foot on the Discord. Don't even have Discord. I literally didn't even know this forum existed before Scriptis told me to post the petition here instead of dropping it in OOC chat upon join. Probably not going to use it outside of this post.
And as an aside,
You're not doing a very good job ignoring it by posting a snarky reply, you know.
And as an aside aside,
As it says in the petition's description, my problem with tram is not just that I don't like it, it's that it is an unplayable experience for me, and reportedly, for numerous other players. If you need a God-tier PC to render a single map in a decade-and-then-some old pixel game, maybe that map isn't fit for play, technically impressive as it may be. All I'm saying.
I do not like the idea of petitioning for map removals, because mapping is a very personal thing with a lot of time investment, and because it's such a large change it tends to get a lot of hatred from the community.
SUICIDE KILO, SUICIDE DOUGHNUT, SUICIDE PUBBY, SUICIDE TRAM, etc.
I don't like this, so I'm more caustic about these sorts of things then I would normally be since I'm used to dealing with well, caustic people.
Most of the people I see complaining about tram are talking about just like, the tram, which I think is stupid. Performance issues tho, that I can chew on.
I semi recently changed how multiz rendering works, and while it is pretty I've had reports of it being really hard on some pcs.
I don't really have a great way of testing clientside impact myself, so I've not been able to do much about this.
Recently we had https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/71005 pr'd, which in theory should reduce the impact significantly.
If your trouble is lag try it and lemme know if it helps at all. If it doesn't or not enough I'll go plumbing in some of the other clientside operations that are down on the lower plane masters (the ones you don't see in focus) to see if a config option for them will help the cause.
My ancestors are smiling at me, Imperials. Can you say the same?
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TheFinalPotato
- Code Maintainer
- Joined: Sun Oct 13, 2019 7:58 am
- Byond Username: LemonInTheDark
Re: Petition to Remove Tram (and also other stuff)
you're wrong about box tho icebox has class
My ancestors are smiling at me, Imperials. Can you say the same?
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LunaticLizzie
- Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2022 7:40 pm
- Byond Username: Lunatic Lizzie
Re: Petition to Remove Tram (and also other stuff)
I'll take me response one paragraph/linebreak at a time here,TheFinalPotato wrote: ↑Mon Nov 07, 2022 10:46 amLemme be a bit more straight up with you.LunaticLizzie wrote: ↑Mon Nov 07, 2022 2:56 am My apologies for not being ensconced in the Seven Layers of SS13 Hell man, I just play the game. Have never set foot on the Discord. Don't even have Discord. I literally didn't even know this forum existed before Scriptis told me to post the petition here instead of dropping it in OOC chat upon join. Probably not going to use it outside of this post.
And as an aside,
You're not doing a very good job ignoring it by posting a snarky reply, you know.
And as an aside aside,
As it says in the petition's description, my problem with tram is not just that I don't like it, it's that it is an unplayable experience for me, and reportedly, for numerous other players. If you need a God-tier PC to render a single map in a decade-and-then-some old pixel game, maybe that map isn't fit for play, technically impressive as it may be. All I'm saying.
I do not like the idea of petitioning for map removals, because mapping is a very personal thing with a lot of time investment, and because it's such a large change it tends to get a lot of hatred from the community.
SUICIDE KILO, SUICIDE DOUGHNUT, SUICIDE PUBBY, SUICIDE TRAM, etc.
I don't like this, so I'm more caustic about these sorts of things then I would normally be since I'm used to dealing with well, caustic people.
Most of the people I see complaining about tram are talking about just like, the tram, which I think is stupid. Performance issues tho, that I can chew on.
I semi recently changed how multiz rendering works, and while it is pretty I've had reports of it being really hard on some pcs.
I don't really have a great way of testing clientside impact myself, so I've not been able to do much about this.
Recently we had https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/71005 pr'd, which in theory should reduce the impact significantly.
If your trouble is lag try it and lemme know if it helps at all. If it doesn't or not enough I'll go plumbing in some of the other clientside operations that are down on the lower plane masters (the ones you don't see in focus) to see if a config option for them will help the cause.
First off, completely fair, actually. I can tell, even from just a glance, even from only a handful of testimony on the game's code in general, that there is not a single easy thing about making.. Well, basically ANYTHING for Space Station 13, especially a map, given how large and expansive they generally have to be (i.e., accounting for miners existing by making LavaLand, putting stuff in space, the creation of the station itself to begin with I imagine is a massive undertaking), and so, not only do I respect and understand that a fuckton of work goes into something like it,
But I can also DEFINITELY imagine people being outright caustic, as you put it, about something for merely not enjoying it, even in a niche community like this which I'd expect to be fairly tight-knit and, God forbid, respectful, to address the second paragraph-bit.
So again, completely fair that your initial response was less than considerate, I'm sure you get a thread like this one every other week. From my perspective, however, I just saw a lot of people not liking tram, be it just their opinion or due to a legitimate issue of playability, the latter of which certainly resonated with me, so my first gut-response was to go through the effort of setting up an account on change.org so I could spout 90s shooter game quotes at people for my cause ("Hi there, would you like to sign my petition?"). Rest assured I didn't mean to outright demean the map itself nor whomever made it, despite what my emotional language in the petition itself may convey, as is the nature of a petition.
Lastly, I'll just lump the third and fourth paragraph-bits into one,
I'd be happy to try that. Is it just in like, the game preferences menu? I'm not super literate with the UI beyond the gameplay and so I haven't fished around in there very much except to set some emote hotkeys. Thank you for your time.
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LunaticLizzie
- Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2022 7:40 pm
- Byond Username: Lunatic Lizzie
Re: Petition to Remove Tram (and also other stuff)
I won't lie, icebox is pretty pimp, but I'm of classic tastes. OG Box is just super damn nostalgic to me from a couple years ago when I first found out about the game, so I figured it worth putting out there that OG box could potentially be preferable to icebox (which, again, I've heard echoed as a sentiment beyond just my own tastes - I tend not to try any outreach nonsense unless I know it isn't just for me, given how abysmal at it I am lmao).
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LunaticLizzie
- Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2022 7:40 pm
- Byond Username: Lunatic Lizzie
Re: Petition to Remove Tram (and also other stuff)
The petition's description explains it, but TL;DR:
A majority of players I've spoken to dislike Tram as a map
The Tram itself, or Zlevels, or something about TramStation, causes a very large amount of space lag for a decent amount of players
OG box is nostalgic and, as a legitimate point somebody else brought up about Ice box that I didn't even think of (see BlueMemesauce' reply on this post), having a whole tundra of wilderness to wander around in may or may not be negatively consequential for the intended gameplay of being trapped on a corporate research station (i.e., you aren't really "trapped" on Ice Box, even less so than if you just slap yourself in a space suit and haul off with a jetpack normally)
And while it isn't said in the petition,
I wanted to quote Postal 2 at people while putting the idea out there that performance issues and Tram are a common thread
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Mice World
- Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2021 4:11 am
- Byond Username: Mice World
Re: Petition to Remove Tram (and also other stuff)
Is it possible that the performance issues on tram/icebox might just be a byond issue? I play with a garbage laptop (Worth about $300 or so in 2014) on mobile data and I don't have any lag issues. I did suffer from a click delay issue back in 2021 but that was just a byond issue that only happened to certain users, so maybe it's something like that?
It keeps getting worse!?
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Doctor Ape
- Joined: Wed Jul 03, 2019 4:23 pm
- Byond Username: Doctorape
Re: Petition to Remove Tram (and also other stuff)
Tram Station is fun. The only unfun thing about it is it tanking the server performance sometimes. BUt then again, that even happens with the regular maps.
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Agux909
- Joined: Mon Oct 07, 2019 11:26 pm
- Byond Username: Agux909
- Location: My own head
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Epicgamer545
- In-Game Admin
- Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2022 8:02 am
- Byond Username: Epicgamer545
- Location: Somewhere In Space, Probably
Re: Petition to Remove Tram (and also other stuff)
I like the tram.
Epicgamer545
J. Howard, microcelebrity & ExOS
game admin - I am still a admin, please subject me to 4 hours of tickets
► Show Spoiler
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san7890
- In-Game Game Master
- Joined: Mon Apr 15, 2019 8:12 pm
- Byond Username: San7890
- Github Username: san7890
- Location: here
- Contact:
Re: Petition to Remove Tram (and also other stuff)
No. Sorry :/
Simultaneously making both the best and worst jokes on the internet. I like looking at maps and code. Learn how to map today!. You may rate me here.
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datorangebottle
- Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2019 9:53 am
- Byond Username: Datorangebottle
Re: Petition to Remove Tram (and also other stuff)
haha yeah maintainers listen to popular opinion please listen to me and sign my petition and pretend i'm relevant and important haha
Timberpoes wrote: ↑Fri Jul 07, 2023 9:16 pm I highly doubt any other admin on the team would have given you this chance, except maybe Kieth because his brain worms are almost as bad as mine.
Vekter wrote: ↑Tue May 16, 2023 4:45 pm At what point does someone's refusal or failure to improve become malice in and of itself? If you give someone a year to stop shitting on the carpet and they keep doing it but get slightly closer to the bathroom every time and sometimes they get to the toilet before it happens, at what point does it become acceptable to just ask them to go shit in someone else's house?
Timberpoes wrote: ↑Fri Apr 28, 2023 7:00 pm I'm sorry, can we get a real player to resolve this appeal? I don't like this trial player. They can't even set their own name.
sinfulbliss wrote: ↑I almost prefer Rave's AI-generated "We cannot accept this appeal at this time. If you would like assistance appealing in the future, please dial 1-800-1984-1488."
Pandarsenic wrote: ↑Mon Dec 12, 2022 2:25 pm I think we can all agree that someone throwing a reverse revolver at Zyb as a secret test of character, and Zyb immediately fucking himself with it, is the best thing we all could have received for Christmas this year
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LunaticLizzie
- Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2022 7:40 pm
- Byond Username: Lunatic Lizzie
Re: Petition to Remove Tram (and also other stuff)
Is there a single member of staff who won't pointlessly throw snark at me for the crime of trying to gauge interest in the removal of a map? We get it, you're untouchable, you needn't flaunt it in the most senselessly dickish way possible. You can, and I can't stop you, but it isn't necessary.
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LunaticLizzie
- Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2022 7:40 pm
- Byond Username: Lunatic Lizzie
Re: Petition to Remove Tram (and also other stuff)
haha yes humble newcomer rage at my blatant ragebait and give me attention despite the fact that I contribute nothing to the discussion hahadatorangebottle wrote: ↑Mon Nov 07, 2022 5:59 pm haha yeah maintainers listen to popular opinion please listen to me and sign my petition and pretend i'm relevant and important haha
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Agux909
- Joined: Mon Oct 07, 2019 11:26 pm
- Byond Username: Agux909
- Location: My own head
Re: Petition to Remove Tram (and also other stuff)
San's response isn't dickish, it's silly, just as this thread.
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san7890
- In-Game Game Master
- Joined: Mon Apr 15, 2019 8:12 pm
- Byond Username: San7890
- Github Username: san7890
- Location: here
- Contact:
Re: Petition to Remove Tram (and also other stuff)
Do you understand how many man-hours over how many years have gone into the creation of a map? I would be shocked if it was less than a thousand man-hours collectively. The first iterations of Tram were being made in August 2017! (viewtopic.php?f=11&t=12729) This doesn't even include the amount of coding that had to go into making the Tram (and then making the Tram better). Do you understand just how much effort was put in by talented people to keep the map at a steady state? Do you understand just how harmful it is to this content creators to keep demanding the removal of a map because you just don't like it? What you see as "snark" is absolutely nothing compared to the level of noxious thought being propagated here.LunaticLizzie wrote: ↑Mon Nov 07, 2022 6:01 pmIs there a single member of staff who won't pointlessly throw snark at me for the crime of trying to gauge interest in the removal of a map? We get it, you're untouchable, you needn't flaunt it in the most senselessly dickish way possible. You can, but it isn't necessary.
If there is a genuine issue, file an issue report on the GitHub. If you have a feature request or want to see it better somehow, the Ideas subforum is a good place to do that. Criticisms could also go in the mapping subforum, and those are okay too as long as you're constructive and understanding of the creator's intentions (and do not lend yourself to toxic arguments). MMMiracles, the creator of Tram, has done a great deal for this map, and continues to solicit feedback on improving the map.
However, actively demanding the removal of a map is such an objectively horrible thought that I refuse to entertain your ideas.
Tram will be removed when there's something better than Tram (that also fulfills a similar funny gimmick somehow). I have news for you on that front. I doubt anyone will ever make something better than Tram, because they will be discouraged by just how much flak mappers take. If we bow to public pressure and remove maps for "The community doesn't like it :/", then there will be absolutely no faith in the team and map quality will suffer more than it has ever suffered.
I apologize if my initial post was a bit too blunt since I didn't expand or elaborate on my thoughts as much as I had here. I resent the idea that I am "untouchable", and I am not "dickish". I want to protect mappers.
Simultaneously making both the best and worst jokes on the internet. I like looking at maps and code. Learn how to map today!. You may rate me here.
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LunaticLizzie
- Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2022 7:40 pm
- Byond Username: Lunatic Lizzie
Re: Petition to Remove Tram (and also other stuff)
1. Your signature thing says mapping is easy, though that's more of a nitpick.san7890 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 07, 2022 6:10 pmDo you understand how many man-hours over how many years have gone into the creation of a map? I would be shocked if it was less than a thousand man-hours collectively. The first iterations of Tram were being made in August 2017! (viewtopic.php?f=11&t=12729) This doesn't even include the amount of coding that had to go into making the Tram (and then making the Tram better). Do you understand just how much effort was put in by talented people to keep the map at a steady state? Do you understand just how harmful it is to this content creators to keep demanding the removal of a map because you just don't like it? What you see as "snark" is absolutely nothing compared to the level of noxious thought being propagated here.LunaticLizzie wrote: ↑Mon Nov 07, 2022 6:01 pmIs there a single member of staff who won't pointlessly throw snark at me for the crime of trying to gauge interest in the removal of a map? We get it, you're untouchable, you needn't flaunt it in the most senselessly dickish way possible. You can, but it isn't necessary.
If there is a genuine issue, file an issue report on the GitHub. If you have a feature request or want to see it better somehow, the Ideas subforum is a good place to do that. Criticisms could also go in the mapping subforum, and those are okay too as long as you're constructive and understanding of the creator's intentions (and do not lend yourself to toxic arguments). MMMiracles, the creator of Tram, has done a great deal for this map, and continues to solicit feedback on improving the map.
However, actively demanding the removal of a map is such an objectively horrible thought that I refuse to entertain your ideas.
Tram will be removed when there's something better than Tram (that also fulfills a similar funny gimmick somehow). I have news for you on that front. I doubt anyone will ever make something better than Tram, because they will be discouraged by just how much flak mappers take. If we bow to public pressure and remove maps for "The community doesn't like it :/", then there will be absolutely no faith in the team and map quality will suffer more than it has ever suffered.
I apologize if my initial post was a bit too blunt since I didn't expand or elaborate on my thoughts as much as I had here. I resent the idea that I am "untouchable", and I am not "dickish". I want to protect mappers.
2. Literally only posted here because an admin fucking told me to post here.
3. The reason I want the map removed isn't "I don't like it", it's that it's unplayable to numerous players, myself included.
4. ":/" is snark, no matter what way you want to spin it.
5. I don't think they'll be discouraged by people not liking a map, or mappers "catching flak" (you wanna see flak, look at the replies to this very post, which are 90% ragebait attention whoring with nothing even remotely worth acknowledging, hence my abrasive response upon seeing what I thought was more of the same from a Head Admin of all people) so much as they'll be discouraged by people talking up how much of a herculean task it is to create a map, which I don't doubt, for the record. In fact, considered mapping, myself, at one point, until I saw aeons of testimony basically saying "It's suffering, don't do it".
6. It wasn't that it's blunt, I appreciate blunt and I appreciate honesty, it's that it gave me nothing to sink my teeth into and came off as condescending and dismissive, which, dismissive, that's not worthy of fault in the slightest, I'm fine being dismissed. It's the condescending part, since I literally started playing TG to escape the condescending, dickhole, "I'm always right because I'm the admin", admin mentality present on FulpStation, which I now acknowledge wasn't your angle or intention.
Regardless,
Thank you for elaborating.
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Ziiro
- Joined: Sun Sep 23, 2018 5:12 pm
- Byond Username: Ziiro
- Github Username: Ziiro
- Location: Robotics
- Contact:
Re: Petition to Remove Tram (and also other stuff)
"and I am not the only one" "for numerous players" who, where?
Probably a version/driver issue or something tbh. If this was a larger issue on a certain spec of machine it would be more widely spread. Given the low requirements of BYOND, there's quite a large sampling size of user's computers, and with that large breadth of options I still don't think this is common.
Probably a version/driver issue or something tbh. If this was a larger issue on a certain spec of machine it would be more widely spread. Given the low requirements of BYOND, there's quite a large sampling size of user's computers, and with that large breadth of options I still don't think this is common.
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san7890
- In-Game Game Master
- Joined: Mon Apr 15, 2019 8:12 pm
- Byond Username: San7890
- Github Username: san7890
- Location: here
- Contact:
Re: Petition to Remove Tram (and also other stuff)
Mapping is easy. The base act of tile-placing is simple (which is all that I cover in my guide to mapping (intentionally)). Design is rather hard, though (as with anything artistic). Making a station is very difficult because of that. However, not all mapping is station mapping.
Simultaneously making both the best and worst jokes on the internet. I like looking at maps and code. Learn how to map today!. You may rate me here.
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LunaticLizzie
- Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2022 7:40 pm
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Re: Petition to Remove Tram (and also other stuff)
I can't name a specific "who" or "where" (beyond the where of Sybil), but I can name a generalize "who" of plenty of people I've spoken to whilst on tram. I'll join, realize it's tram, and start bitching the moment I enter my department, and usually there's at least one or two people who go "Yeah, I literally can't execute basic job functions due to space lag, either". Very rarely have I complained about specifically the performance and had absolutely nobody speak up describing similar.Ziiro wrote: ↑Mon Nov 07, 2022 6:32 pm "and I am not the only one" "for numerous players" who, where?
Probably a version/driver issue or something tbh. If this was a larger issue on a certain spec of machine it would be more widely spread. Given the low requirements of BYOND, there's quite a large sampling size of user's computers, and with that large breadth of options I still don't think this is common.
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MMMiracles
- Code Maintainer
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Re: Petition to Remove Tram (and also other stuff)
works on my pcLunaticLizzie wrote: ↑Mon Nov 07, 2022 6:35 pmI can't name a specific "who" or "where" (beyond the where of Sybil), but I can name a generalize "who" of plenty of people I've spoken to whilst on tram. I'll join, realize it's tram, and start bitching the moment I enter my department, and usually there's at least one or two people who go "Yeah, I literally can't execute basic job functions due to space lag, either". Very rarely have I complained about specifically the performance and had absolutely nobody speak up describing similar.Ziiro wrote: ↑Mon Nov 07, 2022 6:32 pm "and I am not the only one" "for numerous players" who, where?
Probably a version/driver issue or something tbh. If this was a larger issue on a certain spec of machine it would be more widely spread. Given the low requirements of BYOND, there's quite a large sampling size of user's computers, and with that large breadth of options I still don't think this is common.
Spoiler:
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Ziiro
- Joined: Sun Sep 23, 2018 5:12 pm
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Re: Petition to Remove Tram (and also other stuff)
If you want to delete thousands of man-hours from the code base you will be expected to do work on your own investigating the issue. Otherwise your request/claim will be disregarded as easily as you wish to disregard everyone's work.LunaticLizzie wrote: ↑Mon Nov 07, 2022 6:35 pm I can't name a specific "who" or "where" (beyond the where of Sybil), but I can name a generalize "who" of plenty of people I've spoken to whilst on tram. I'll join, realize it's tram, and start bitching the moment I enter my department, and usually there's at least one or two people who go "Yeah, I literally can't execute basic job functions due to space lag, either". Very rarely have I complained about specifically the performance and had absolutely nobody speak up describing similar.
If you are serious about this, then you need to present your case utilization/player populations across the different maps to prove that the performance of Tram is pushing people away at a significant degree.
If you are right, then that would mean that Tram, specifically, would see a sharp falloff at roundstart that would be corrected when the game was on a new map regardless of all other circumstances (time of day/roundtype/which sever/etc)
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Agux909
- Joined: Mon Oct 07, 2019 11:26 pm
- Byond Username: Agux909
- Location: My own head
Re: Petition to Remove Tram (and also other stuff)
But then why did you go ahead and make a petition to straight up remove a map instead of trying to pinpoint the problem that's causing you lag, bring forth your issue on a constructive thread, git, or discord, showing some footage and debugging which could be used, paired with other info, to help others help you?LunaticLizzie wrote: ↑Mon Nov 07, 2022 6:35 pmI can't name a specific "who" or "where" (beyond the where of Sybil), but I can name a generalize "who" of plenty of people I've spoken to whilst on tram. I'll join, realize it's tram, and start bitching the moment I enter my department, and usually there's at least one or two people who go "Yeah, I literally can't execute basic job functions due to space lag, either". Very rarely have I complained about specifically the performance and had absolutely nobody speak up describing similar.Ziiro wrote: ↑Mon Nov 07, 2022 6:32 pm "and I am not the only one" "for numerous players" who, where?
Probably a version/driver issue or something tbh. If this was a larger issue on a certain spec of machine it would be more widely spread. Given the low requirements of BYOND, there's quite a large sampling size of user's computers, and with that large breadth of options I still don't think this is common.
Sorry but you sought snarky remarks by yourself. If you don't dislike the map and are just having performance issues with it, why would it ever occur to you that it should be nuked as a first option? Do you understand how unreasonable this is?
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LunaticLizzie
- Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2022 7:40 pm
- Byond Username: Lunatic Lizzie
Re: Petition to Remove Tram (and also other stuff)
I made the petition for a few reasons, namely, because despite the various fistfuls of people I've heard say basically the same thing, i.e., "Tram makes my game literally unplayable", the general sentiment is just "tram bad because tram bad", at least from what I've seen.Agux909 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 07, 2022 7:28 pmBut then why did you go ahead and make a petition to straight up remove a map instead of trying to pinpoint the problem that's causing you lag, bring forth your issue on a constructive thread, git, or discord, showing some footage and debugging which could be used, paired with other info, to help others help you?LunaticLizzie wrote: ↑Mon Nov 07, 2022 6:35 pmI can't name a specific "who" or "where" (beyond the where of Sybil), but I can name a generalize "who" of plenty of people I've spoken to whilst on tram. I'll join, realize it's tram, and start bitching the moment I enter my department, and usually there's at least one or two people who go "Yeah, I literally can't execute basic job functions due to space lag, either". Very rarely have I complained about specifically the performance and had absolutely nobody speak up describing similar.Ziiro wrote: ↑Mon Nov 07, 2022 6:32 pm "and I am not the only one" "for numerous players" who, where?
Probably a version/driver issue or something tbh. If this was a larger issue on a certain spec of machine it would be more widely spread. Given the low requirements of BYOND, there's quite a large sampling size of user's computers, and with that large breadth of options I still don't think this is common.
Sorry but you sought snarky remarks by yourself. If you don't dislike the map and are just having performance issues with it, why would it ever occur to you that it should be nuked as a first option? Do you understand how unreasonable this is?
Github is obnoxious to try and get working, and I have tried various times, to no avail (plus, again, I was LITERALLY TOLD TO POST HERE BY AN ADMIN, something many of you conveniently seem to ignore me having said in the first fucking place).
I do not have Discord and will not have Discord.
But yes, I'm just begging for people to ragebait and say nothing of worth as I try and gauge just how bad the issue actually is via petition. You act like petitions actually get anything done and aren't a glorified consensus measurement. Regardless of what happens with the petition, Tram isn't going anywhere because some nobody made a petition, nor did I ever think it would.
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LunaticLizzie
- Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2022 7:40 pm
- Byond Username: Lunatic Lizzie
Re: Petition to Remove Tram (and also other stuff)
Well, regardless, I think it's been made perfectly clear that coming here was a misstep, albeit one I was guided into personally by an admin. Can't seem to figure out how to close the thread, if that's even a thing I can do, so, we can consider this my jumping-off point.
Sorry to have wasted all of your time.
Sorry to have wasted all of your time.
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Agux909
- Joined: Mon Oct 07, 2019 11:26 pm
- Byond Username: Agux909
- Location: My own head
Re: Petition to Remove Tram (and also other stuff)
Sorry I genuinely thought you were being serious (although misdirected, misinformed) about your thread. I even stopped myself from shitposting. I guess you really got me there.
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Rohen_Tahir
- Joined: Wed Jun 05, 2019 1:00 pm
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Re: Petition to Remove Tram (and also other stuff)
LunaticLizzie wrote: ↑Mon Nov 07, 2022 6:23 pm1. Your signature thing says mapping is easy, though that's more of a nitpick.san7890 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 07, 2022 6:10 pmDo you understand how many man-hours over how many years have gone into the creation of a map? I would be shocked if it was less than a thousand man-hours collectively. The first iterations of Tram were being made in August 2017! (viewtopic.php?f=11&t=12729) This doesn't even include the amount of coding that had to go into making the Tram (and then making the Tram better). Do you understand just how much effort was put in by talented people to keep the map at a steady state? Do you understand just how harmful it is to this content creators to keep demanding the removal of a map because you just don't like it? What you see as "snark" is absolutely nothing compared to the level of noxious thought being propagated here.LunaticLizzie wrote: ↑Mon Nov 07, 2022 6:01 pmIs there a single member of staff who won't pointlessly throw snark at me for the crime of trying to gauge interest in the removal of a map? We get it, you're untouchable, you needn't flaunt it in the most senselessly dickish way possible. You can, but it isn't necessary.
If there is a genuine issue, file an issue report on the GitHub. If you have a feature request or want to see it better somehow, the Ideas subforum is a good place to do that. Criticisms could also go in the mapping subforum, and those are okay too as long as you're constructive and understanding of the creator's intentions (and do not lend yourself to toxic arguments). MMMiracles, the creator of Tram, has done a great deal for this map, and continues to solicit feedback on improving the map.
However, actively demanding the removal of a map is such an objectively horrible thought that I refuse to entertain your ideas.
Tram will be removed when there's something better than Tram (that also fulfills a similar funny gimmick somehow). I have news for you on that front. I doubt anyone will ever make something better than Tram, because they will be discouraged by just how much flak mappers take. If we bow to public pressure and remove maps for "The community doesn't like it :/", then there will be absolutely no faith in the team and map quality will suffer more than it has ever suffered.
I apologize if my initial post was a bit too blunt since I didn't expand or elaborate on my thoughts as much as I had here. I resent the idea that I am "untouchable", and I am not "dickish". I want to protect mappers.
2. Literally only posted here because an admin fucking told me to post here.
3. The reason I want the map removed isn't "I don't like it", it's that it's unplayable to numerous players, myself included.
4. ":/" is snark, no matter what way you want to spin it.
5. I don't think they'll be discouraged by people not liking a map, or mappers "catching flak" (you wanna see flak, look at the replies to this very post, which are 90% ragebait attention whoring with nothing even remotely worth acknowledging, hence my abrasive response upon seeing what I thought was more of the same from a Head Admin of all people) so much as they'll be discouraged by people talking up how much of a herculean task it is to create a map, which I don't doubt, for the record. In fact, considered mapping, myself, at one point, until I saw aeons of testimony basically saying "It's suffering, don't do it".
6. It wasn't that it's blunt, I appreciate blunt and I appreciate honesty, it's that it gave me nothing to sink my teeth into and came off as condescending and dismissive, which, dismissive, that's not worthy of fault in the slightest, I'm fine being dismissed. It's the condescending part, since I literally started playing TG to escape the condescending, dickhole, "I'm always right because I'm the admin", admin mentality present on FulpStation, which I now acknowledge wasn't your angle or intention.
Regardless,
Thank you for elaborating.
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Rohen_Tahir
- Joined: Wed Jun 05, 2019 1:00 pm
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Re: Petition to Remove Tram (and also other stuff)
MMMiracles wrote: ↑Mon Nov 07, 2022 6:54 pmworks on my pcLunaticLizzie wrote: ↑Mon Nov 07, 2022 6:35 pmI can't name a specific "who" or "where" (beyond the where of Sybil), but I can name a generalize "who" of plenty of people I've spoken to whilst on tram. I'll join, realize it's tram, and start bitching the moment I enter my department, and usually there's at least one or two people who go "Yeah, I literally can't execute basic job functions due to space lag, either". Very rarely have I complained about specifically the performance and had absolutely nobody speak up describing similar.Ziiro wrote: ↑Mon Nov 07, 2022 6:32 pm "and I am not the only one" "for numerous players" who, where?
Probably a version/driver issue or something tbh. If this was a larger issue on a certain spec of machine it would be more widely spread. Given the low requirements of BYOND, there's quite a large sampling size of user's computers, and with that large breadth of options I still don't think this is common.
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Rohen_Tahir
- Joined: Wed Jun 05, 2019 1:00 pm
- Byond Username: Rohen Tahir
- Location: Primary fool storage
- Contact:
Re: Petition to Remove Tram (and also other stuff)
Admins are volunteer moderators + GMs, not customer service. Admin training is a joke. Do not expect 100% correct answers from admins.LunaticLizzie wrote: ↑Mon Nov 07, 2022 7:42 pmI made the petition for a few reasons, namely, because despite the various fistfuls of people I've heard say basically the same thing, i.e., "Tram makes my game literally unplayable", the general sentiment is just "tram bad because tram bad", at least from what I've seen.Agux909 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 07, 2022 7:28 pmBut then why did you go ahead and make a petition to straight up remove a map instead of trying to pinpoint the problem that's causing you lag, bring forth your issue on a constructive thread, git, or discord, showing some footage and debugging which could be used, paired with other info, to help others help you?LunaticLizzie wrote: ↑Mon Nov 07, 2022 6:35 pmI can't name a specific "who" or "where" (beyond the where of Sybil), but I can name a generalize "who" of plenty of people I've spoken to whilst on tram. I'll join, realize it's tram, and start bitching the moment I enter my department, and usually there's at least one or two people who go "Yeah, I literally can't execute basic job functions due to space lag, either". Very rarely have I complained about specifically the performance and had absolutely nobody speak up describing similar.Ziiro wrote: ↑Mon Nov 07, 2022 6:32 pm "and I am not the only one" "for numerous players" who, where?
Probably a version/driver issue or something tbh. If this was a larger issue on a certain spec of machine it would be more widely spread. Given the low requirements of BYOND, there's quite a large sampling size of user's computers, and with that large breadth of options I still don't think this is common.
Sorry but you sought snarky remarks by yourself. If you don't dislike the map and are just having performance issues with it, why would it ever occur to you that it should be nuked as a first option? Do you understand how unreasonable this is?
Github is obnoxious to try and get working, and I have tried various times, to no avail (plus, again, I was LITERALLY TOLD TO POST HERE BY AN ADMIN, something many of you conveniently seem to ignore me having said in the first fucking place).
I do not have Discord and will not have Discord.
But yes, I'm just begging for people to ragebait and say nothing of worth as I try and gauge just how bad the issue actually is via petition. You act like petitions actually get anything done and aren't a glorified consensus measurement. Regardless of what happens with the petition, Tram isn't going anywhere because some nobody made a petition, nor did I ever think it would.
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JusticeGoat
- In-Game Admin
- Joined: Fri May 20, 2016 8:36 am
- Byond Username: JusticeGoat
Re: Petition to Remove Tram (and also other stuff)
Tram is a fresh change from the center bridge design, a map does not need to be "optimized" to be fun. We need more weird maps that present unique challenges.
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Rohen_Tahir
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san7890
- In-Game Game Master
- Joined: Mon Apr 15, 2019 8:12 pm
- Byond Username: San7890
- Github Username: san7890
- Location: here
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Re: Petition to Remove Tram (and also other stuff)
This is the correct place for discussing a certain topic: but that does not mean that it is the right place to find people who agree with you.
Simultaneously making both the best and worst jokes on the internet. I like looking at maps and code. Learn how to map today!. You may rate me here.
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