/tg/Station 13

This is just a clarification that I want headmins to do.

What interactions are sec allowed to have with gun cargo? I always assumed that gun cargo was valid especially with intent to distribute to the crew, but the recent ban appeal seems to suggest that there is no issue doing this especially if using private buy so the crates are technically yours.

I would like the headmins to clarify their position on this as gun cargo often ruins the round experience for everyone when you have 20000 super armed shitters. What's the solution here? It happens every single round so brigging the qm or w/e won't actually act like a punishment.

"what can i do to these people as sec? (don't mention arresting them i dont want to do that)"
you can arrest them

PKPenguin321 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 16, 2022 11:06 am "what can i do to these people as sec? (don't mention arresting them i dont want to do that)"
you can arrest them

Are you a troglodyte or can you just not read? I mentioned that this happens every single round so arresting them is pointless. Furthermore if you brig them they'll continue the behaviour. If you perma them they'll break out and continue it again, why should security have to jump through 1pl0 hoops to deal with some giga shitters.

kieth4 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 16, 2022 11:48 am

PKPenguin321 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 16, 2022 11:06 am "what can i do to these people as sec? (don't mention arresting them i dont want to do that)"
you can arrest them

Are you a troglodyte or can you just not read? I mentioned that this happens every single round so arresting them is pointless. Furthermore if you brig them they'll continue the behaviour. If you perma them they'll break out and continue it again, why should security have to jump through 1pl0 hoops to deal with some giga shitters.

i do happen to be a troglodyte but i actually can read, thanks for asking

PKPenguin321 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 16, 2022 11:50 am

kieth4 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 16, 2022 11:48 am

PKPenguin321 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 16, 2022 11:06 am "what can i do to these people as sec? (don't mention arresting them i dont want to do that)"
you can arrest them

Are you a troglodyte or can you just not read? I mentioned that this happens every single round so arresting them is pointless. Furthermore if you brig them they'll continue the behaviour. If you perma them they'll break out and continue it again, why should security have to jump through 1pl0 hoops to deal with some giga shitters.

i do happen to be a troglodyte but i actually can read, thanks for asking

It's alright bro, we all have our moments. Let's hug and make up.

PKPenguin321 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 16, 2022 11:06 am "what can i do to these people as sec? (don't mention arresting them i dont want to do that)"
you can arrest them

In general they try to kill you for this, even if you are security. They will shoot first, antag or not.

I guess we'll just have to wait for shots to be fired before returning.

If you try and arrest guncargo and you get shot at, ahelp it (after killing the offending party if you so wish)

It really is that simple

And if someone is doing it repeatedly, hey, there's a new rule called Rule 12 which covers this type of thing, so, you know, ahelp it

Here are my individual views as 1/3rd headmin team for discussion, views limited to LRP only:

Guncargo has a lot of room to operate with regards to administrative enforcement and broadly speaking running guncargo is an IC issue.

Guncargo is a thing players can do as long as they're not breaking any of the other rules, with a particular focus on new Rule 12. Cargo should not be running guncargo just to arm up hunt all the valids off the face of the station because they feel like it - Excepting existential antags like cult, revs, nukies, malf AI, you get the idea. Reacting proportionately to existing and confirmed threats is almost always okay, though.

It doesn't protect players from IC consequences of their actions. Security has every right to arrest players with unpermitted, cargo-bought firearms. That doesn't immediately make players antags or "acting like antags" just because they have a cargo-bought firearm. There needs to be more context before sec can start executing. If people shoot back, security can treat them as antags (and ahelp if they want to be sure the Cargonians who shot back were actually antags).

Security policy still fully applies in this scenario, ESPECIALLY: "The only exception is that security is generally considered to be armed with non-lethal methods to control a situation. Therefore, where reasonably possible, security is expected to use non-lethal methods first in a conflict before escalating to lethal methods."

Which is to say, security CAN shoot up cargo first AS LONG AS THEY'RE SHOOTING BLUE. Security can deploy overwhelming non-lethal force because that is in line with sec policy that they're expected to deal with things non-lethally. The second security goes over to lethals when they could or should have used non-lethals, security policy slaps them instead.

Similary, the following sec policy applies when dealing with people arrested: "Make sure players deserve it when you treat them as an antag, when in doubt, err on the side of caution as poor behaviour on the part of security will not be tolerated."

Which is to say that again - Owning a cargo-bought firearm does not make a player immediately valid. But using it against innocents and security definitely does and, if they aren't an antag, is probably a rule break too.

Thank you for the clarification, I've always treated armed cargo as valid to kill. In the future I'll use perma or something.

Thanks for bringing this up!

Question:

This is just a clarification that I want headmins to do. What interactions are sec allowed to have with gun cargo?

In looking at this, we came together to consider some key clarifications that should be helpful.

None of this should be new policy, just clarification on how existing policy in various areas apply to Cargonia/Gun Cargo gimmicks so players understand how everything interacts. This applies to LRP only, MRP has its own unique quirks.

Running Cargonia/Guncargo gimmicks is a privilege, not a right. Cargonia/Guncargo is mostly an IC issue on LRP with one major exception; if Guncargo is done to arm up and validhunt without a good reason or existential station threat, it may fall under Rule 12.

It may instead fall under Rule 1 if it starts to ruin the round. If Security comes after you, don't expect to be able to use the guns on them free of admin involvement.

"... security is expected to use non-lethal methods first in a conflict before escalating to lethal methods." from Security Policy applies here as normal.

In cases where Cargo is a mix of antags and non-antags, every player in both Sec and Cargo will be held accountable for their own actions with respect to the rules.

Security may search Cargo staff where there is reasonable evidence that their department is armed with guns. Normal rules around searches apply.

"Make sure players deserve it when you treat them as an antag, when in doubt, err on the side of caution ..." from Security Policy applies here as normal.

Just having a Cargo-bought gun does not make a player valid alone. Repeatedly buying guns despite confiscation or using guns against innocents/security can make someone valid.

If in doubt, ahelp as soon as reasonably possible.