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Bring back player disruption.

Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2022 2:28 am
by Helios
In the name of balancing, players have lost agency for the sake of balance.
In genetics, cloning has been removed entirely, space adaptaton has been nerfed into 2 powers. X-ray vision is gone. Thermal vision makes you go blind. Hulk causes you to break your arms if you destroy walls, and kill yourself. In its place, we've gotten new powers, like Webbing, or Transcendent Olfaction. Powers people clamor for every day I am sure. A bunch of disruptive powers wouldn't be typically distributed, so if you look through old space station 13 stories a lot of people mention revolutions starting in science, and using Hulk/Space Adapt to challenge security and the heads.
The Head of Personnel has had his latitude chopped down at his knees. The game from 2007-2021 was fine with having the head of personnel assign as much or as little access he wanted, now even he is locked behind the color of ID cards. HoPs never used to give all access, people would ask for it anyways, and get a job change or something else. This would be excluded if 1. The HoP was an antagonist, and for a long time he had the potential to be. 2. Station emergency. Nuclear operatives have declared war, or blob has eaten half the station and is 10 minutes from victory and it's an all hands on deck situation. 3. He was on drugs/speech check passed/whatever reason he was deciding to be nice that day. Getting captain level access as an assistant was rare but did happen. Now it doesn't
Chemistry has been nerfed many times over the years. A lot of things were removed from the game over the years, which I agree shouldn't have been able to manafacture from round start. The solution to this is bring those chemical reactions back into the game, but lean on other departments. Require it to be derived from something grown in botany, allow mining to collect blood from lavaland creeps and hand it to mining, hell cargo could just have a reagant chemical supply chest that has limited distribution because of the stuff it can make. There's real life limits on the amount of cough syrup you can buy, nanotransen having limits on the amount of certain chems sent to a station is believable.
Guns have been nerfed in a few ways. Tasers are gone, so it's a lot harder for security to catch criminals. Guns are big, meaning they can't be stored in backpacks anymore, so wizards dreams of stealing the armory when nobody is looking is off the table, and security's ability to get stolen from is nerfed.
Ultimately these decisions were "logical" from a balance perspective. It can get annoying when hulk gets handed out like candy every round. (This is the job of security to step in, remove the test subjects, delete radioactivity, strength and hulk from every disc, and steal the test subjects.) So if nobody wants hulk the problem is solved, but the more and more aspects of the game are hammered down this way, people don't want any job, they play as an assistant, and eventually they just stop playing.

Re: Bring back player disruption.

Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2022 3:15 am
by Shadowflame909
If you focus on balance you lose some aspects of what makes the game fun. If you focus on fun, you lose some aspects of what makes the game balanced.

Alas, we cannot always have it all...

Re: Bring back player disruption.

Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2022 10:50 am
by massa
While I realize it's irrelevant to an overarching point, your focus on hulk is weird.

Security cannot deal with mass hulks. Hulks on revs is insane. Security can't even deal with it when it's normal tide. Even non antags will punch out walls and all it takes is a few for brig to be fucked. Hulk was actual aids, but yes, I agree, we do need more fun and strong stuff. Just, not hulk. That shit is insane.

Re: Bring back player disruption.

Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2022 12:26 pm
by Shadowflame909
Last I remember from a chat with maintainers in the coderbus meeting. OP stuff can come back as long as it's a great deal of effort put towards powering up individuals who are not yourself. Like if old Hulk was just available from a genetics activator, and you were unable to get it if you didn't have the roundstart genes for it.

Re: Bring back player disruption.

Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2022 10:12 pm
by oranges
Helios wrote: Sun Mar 06, 2022 2:28 am the more and more aspects of the game are hammered down this way, people don't want any job, they play as an assistant, and eventually they just stop playing.
if you're only playing the game for tools for grief, why are you playing at all?

Re: Bring back player disruption.

Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2022 10:34 pm
by Mothblocks
Shadowflame909 wrote: Sun Mar 06, 2022 12:26 pm Last I remember from a chat with maintainers in the coderbus meeting. OP stuff can come back as long as it's a great deal of effort put towards powering up individuals who are not yourself. Like if old Hulk was just available from a genetics activator, and you were unable to get it if you didn't have the roundstart genes for it.
I'm not sure this is the right takeaway--I think you're mashing two separate topics that came up. But! I do remember us saying powerful stuff can come back if it's locked behind anomaly cores, which might be what you're thinking of.

Re: Bring back player disruption.

Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2022 10:41 pm
by cSeal
Helios wrote: Sun Mar 06, 2022 2:28 am A bunch of disruptive powers wouldn't be typically distributed,

Getting captain level access as an assistant was rare but did happen.
lol

Re: Bring back player disruption.

Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2022 12:21 am
by Agux909
cSeal wrote: Sun Mar 06, 2022 10:41 pm
Helios wrote: Sun Mar 06, 2022 2:28 am A bunch of disruptive powers wouldn't be typically distributed,

Getting captain level access as an assistant was rare but did happen.
lol
He's obviously talking about Manuel.

Right????

Re: Bring back player disruption.

Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2022 12:42 am
by Helios
oranges wrote: Sun Mar 06, 2022 10:12 pm
Helios wrote: Sun Mar 06, 2022 2:28 am the more and more aspects of the game are hammered down this way, people don't want any job, they play as an assistant, and eventually they just stop playing.
if you're only playing the game for tools for grief, why are you playing at all?
What's the point of playing genetics if the powers people want are gone, and what's left is antenna and telepathy?

Re: Bring back player disruption.

Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2022 12:45 am
by cSeal
Helios wrote: Mon Mar 07, 2022 12:42 am
oranges wrote: Sun Mar 06, 2022 10:12 pm
Helios wrote: Sun Mar 06, 2022 2:28 am the more and more aspects of the game are hammered down this way, people don't want any job, they play as an assistant, and eventually they just stop playing.
if you're only playing the game for tools for grief, why are you playing at all?
What's the point of playing genetics if the powers people want are gone, and what's left is antenna and telepathy?
Genetics is a shit job regardless of if it gives good rewards
the fact that it was only considerable bearable when it gave grief tools is a testament to this
this isnt the fault of people removing or nerfing shit that made the game less fun to play, its the fault of the cracked out rambler who added genetics in its current incarnation in the first place

Re: Bring back player disruption.

Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2022 2:09 am
by Helios
The same could be said of many jobs.
Botany is a "shit job that hands out grief tools"
Robotics making mechs, well that's a crappy job handing out grief tools
Virology, crappy job, made to grief.
Chemistry, they're a crappy job. They just hand out drugs so others can grief.
Cargo, Quartermaster. Those jobs suck. They just order emitters, order guns and hand out grief tools. Let's cut em all

Re: Bring back player disruption.

Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2022 7:43 am
by cSeal
Helios wrote: Mon Mar 07, 2022 2:09 am The same could be said of many jobs.
Botany is a "shit job that hands out grief tools"
Robotics making mechs, well that's a crappy job handing out grief tools
Virology, crappy job, made to grief.
Chemistry, they're a crappy job. They just hand out drugs so others can grief.
Cargo, Quartermaster. Those jobs suck. They just order emitters, order guns and hand out grief tools. Let's cut em all
The same COULD be said, yes, but it could only be said accurately about one of those jobs and its virology, which should be removed immediately :D
every other job you mentioned can and is used in constructive, fun ways frequently
there has never been a cool interesting gimmick enabled by someone being able to instantly see all the bad men through the wall with thermal vision after picking up an injector off the ground, and no rounds were improved by everyone and their mother having aa and using it to grief the fuck out of every department

Re: Bring back player disruption.

Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2022 8:10 pm
by tjatpbnj
cSeal wrote: Mon Mar 07, 2022 7:43 am there has never been a cool interesting gimmick enabled by someone being able to instantly see all the bad men through the wall with thermal vision after picking up an injector off the ground,
I'm certain there's been plenty of cool gimmicks enabled by thermal vision.