/tg/Station 13

BYOND account: mrstrawman
Character name: Jan Dabini
Ban type: Server
Ban length: 24 Hours
Ban reason: Banned by host: You, or another user of this computer or connection (Mrstrawman) is banned from playing here. The ban reason is: In an event where crew were told absolutely not to crack open a crate or mass death would occur, beelined for the crate and immediately cracked it open as non antag because they thought it would be funny. Resulted in the death of a crewmember. Events don't make you exempt from self-antagging rules, and ignoring warnings resulting in deaths makes you responsible for those deaths. Don't flip the coin if you won't accept the consequence. This ban (BanID #58858) was applied by Stickymayhem on 2022-02-07 19:42:17 during round ID 178008. The ban is for 1 day and expires on 2022-02-08 19:42:17 (server time).
Time ban was placed: 2022-02-08 19:42:17
Server you were playing on when banned: Terry
Round ID in which ban was placed: 178008
Your side of the story: I was collecting bounties and working on monkey cubes in public botany when a series of CentComm announcements are made detailing a ferry being sent with 'dangerous cargo' aboard, and that under no circumstances should Sec or Command allow anyone to open the crate in transport to wherever upon its arrival. Assuming it to be an event to do something like spice up a greenshift or bait some crew-on-crew action with a gag prize inside, I waited in arrivals whilst seccies, other tiders, and two heads arrived to receive it. Upon its arrival, I stood outside not seeing any means to get in and open it until a sec officer managed to pepper spray themselves and drop it after I dropped some monkey cubes and activated them with an extinguisher. I took the pepper spray and did a loop of arrivals, coming back to chain-spray all of the officers and heads, making it aboard to crowbar the crate before getting batonged. To mine and everyone else's surprise, CentComm thought it'd be a good idea this time to load a crate full of supermatter spiders onto the station after making three public announcements (that I'm pretty sure many people on Terry would interpret as 'do it, pussy' over 'do not touch') to the entire station alleging lethal contents. I get dusted, the CentComm rep gets dusted, and another guy gets dusted by what I can only assume chasing me aboard. The hehe haha spiders are contained by the remaining onlookers, and I eat a 24hr ban after trying to argue my case to Sticky.
Why you think you should be unbanned: I'm not bothered by the 24hr ban on its own, I can understand consternation at having a planned event ruined mere minutes into its execution. The bits I take issue with are 1.) sending a crate full of supermatter anything to a place like Terry after loudly and proudly announcing it to the entire shift, 2.) placing it out in the open in arrivals with what looks like understaffed security, 3.) expecting said crate to make it from arrivals to X destination without any interference from non-antags, again, on Terry, and 4.) the disingenuous framing both in Admin PMs and the note that this is cut-and-dry self-antagging and not a grey area instigated by an admin from a position of what I can only assume to be either poor forethought, naive expectations or an intentional bait to mess with people.
Anything else we should know: I'm trying to reform from my early days of regularly eating bans and notes, and I feel as though this ban was tersely and unfairly given, probably in a moment of anger, in a situation practically designed to bait people from its handling. I'd imagine that if it hadn't been me opening it straight away, someone else, antag or not, invariably would've gotten to it. It boggles my mind that the note is worded as though this is 100% on me. I'm happy to eat the dayban as someone else did die from me chimping out, but I'd like the note either to be altered or outright removed in order to reflect the diffused responsibility here.

Furthermore, I'd like to suggest that StickyMayhem stop trying to force events like this on Terry. I don't know exactly how often it occurs, but I've been party to at least one other event of theirs recently (Sticky spawning in as a Chrono Legionnaire on a shift where an antag had already released several viruses and over half the crew being dead, pressing buttons to delay the shuttle which ended up getting maxcapped in departures whilst paused, and trying to engage in HRP with the remaining crew - this pretty much ended server pop for that evening), and it doesn't feel like their choice in admin events meshes well with the current playerbase. I think this one in particular was in particularly poor taste, and it's a bad faith argument to claim players have complete perspective and agency in ignoring 'warnings' that read as spicy announcements/bait.

Here's a thought experiment, let's look at how events would look were we to assume your behaviour was acceptable:
1. Nothing dangerous can be spawned by admins, or anything dangerous that is spawned would have to be given so many protections that no player can tamper with it
2. In a game about roleplaying and deception, all information present and future must be available for the players so they can't accidentally use something dangerous
3. Even when all information is given, players must be OOCly informed that the information given is true and not a joke
4. Anything and anyone outside the scope of a normal gamemode is essentially valid
5. All non-antagonists can act antagonistically as long as they are within the confines of event content
6. If any of the above are not adhered to, mass death or the total destruction of the event are inevitable and not the fault of the player

Alternatively, we can follow the existing ruleset and not assume that events are any different. You chose to crack open the crate. If it was full of pugs you would have been fine, it was full of supermatter spiders, so you got a dayban for killing a crewmember. You were told "If you open this box many people will die", you did it anyway, people died and you got banned.

You did everything in your power to act as antagonistically as possible, including pepper spraying the Captain and security team, in order to get access to something dangerous and trigger it as quickly as possible.

This 24 hour ban was extremely lenient. It was not given in anger, you behaved as cleanly antagonistically as is practically possible.

The part that's particularly telling is that your justification relies on the assumption that your behaviour is reasonable and my event is unreasonable because others on Terry would behave similarly, not realizing that your own ban here is specifically designed to prevent that. Ironically this assumption is only true if I don't ban you. But I did, so it isn't.

There is no diffused responsibility here. The event was designed to give the security team and Captain an interesting project they could manage the danger level of, and antagonists something to interfere with. It wasn't about you, it didn't need your involvement and you explicitly got involved acting as an antagonist without the status to back it up.

Denied, a headmin can overturn this if they deem it necessary, but the precedent set by doing so would make events essentially impossible to run anymore.

Stickymayhem wrote: ↑Mon Feb 07, 2022 8:49 pm Here's a thought experiment, let's look at how events would look were we to assume your behaviour was acceptable:
1. Nothing dangerous can be spawned by admins, or anything dangerous that is spawned would have to be given so many protections that no player can tamper with it
2. In a game about roleplaying and deception, all information present and future must be available for the players so they can't accidentally use something dangerous
3. Even when all information is given, players must be OOCly informed that the information given is true and not a joke
4. Anything and anyone outside the scope of a normal gamemode is essentially valid
5. All non-antagonists can act antagonistically as long as they are within the confines of event content
6. If any of the above are not adhered to, mass death or the total destruction of the event are inevitable and not the fault of the player

This is fallacious reasoning; for one, under points 2. and 4. your argument assumes that all players and admins on a given shift are acting with equal intent to adhere to roleplaying and deception at all times, even in extenuating, light-hearted circumstances frequently created by admin intervention that culminate in a harmless troll or gag prize/finale that is designed to manufacture competition, conflict or otherwise interesting player interactions - on a server with the subjective proviso of LRP that has had many of these non-lethal, fun and engaging events occur in the past. Point 1. also assumes a binary state of danger in that a lethal component to an event should either be a.) completely, readily accessible to any idiot with a crowbar or b.) locked up so tight that only the literal hand of god can affect it, instead of there being layers of protection and obfuscation you can add to frustrate attempts to gain access to a dangerous object. For example, PIN locks, ID access, a specific radio frequency, or extremely tough materials.

Augmented by your other points, this argument places the blame entirely at the foot of the player, and not at that of the admin in control of the parameters of the event that they implement, and the critical thinking skills to weigh-up the possibilities, pros, cons and necessary contingencies therein. I put it to you that disregarding the ambiguity and arguably goading tone of the three CentComm announcements you made on a server notorious for the asymmetry of its gameplay and roleplay elements, you decided to:

- Choose a wooden crate as a container, instantaneously opened by a crowbar, one of the most ubiquitous tools on any station - or easily destroyed by basic melee weapons, not to mention gunfire and explosives
- Fill said crate with multiple specimens of a novel simplemob, designed expressly to instantly round-remove any living thing it touches, that is also highly mobile and aggressive
- Upon appraisal of the crew manifest on a highpop shift, with Security and Command engaged with their own jobs and projects, entrust the care and responsibility of these incredibly lethal specimens to a handful of staff
- Deliver the crate and its contents, escorted by a lone CentComm representative, to Arrivals, an unprotected and open-plan space that any crewmember can access

This can already be interpreted as a clumsy attempt at fostering interactions in a shift, but nonetheless an interesting one if we assume that none of the escorts or onlookers feel a pang of curiosity about what's inside. Yet, with the addition of the CentComm announcements where I recall:

- You specified the delivery of a crate necessitating the escort of members of both Command and Security to Arrivals
- You alluded to potentially hazardous/lethal contents without specifying their exact nature in a provocative tone
- You made multiple public announcements, visible to the entire crew, pointing vaguely to the danger of anyone else getting their hands on it

I apologise that this is just my recall of events and not backed up by logs, but all I could find in scrubby were announcements that look like this;

[2022-02-07 19:31:19.305] ADMIN: Stickymayhem/(Jack Steiner) has created a command report: "Attention Crew,
-censored(misc)-
-censored(misc)-
-censored(misc)-
-censored(misc)-
-censored(misc)-
-censored(misc)-

With all this in mind, however, perhaps you then assume:

- Crewmembers are expected to take what could be interpreted as an HRP admin event on LRP fully seriously
- Crewmembers are ignorant of prior precedent of admins playing pranks on them midround, for instance, falsely dressing up an activity or fun item as lethal in order to increase interest and mystique
- Crewmembers will ignore curiosity when advised of theoretical lethality in a scenario where the stakes could range from nothing happening to mass casualties

Instead of punishing curiosity and orthogonal interactivity with conditions you had full control over until pulling the trigger on them, why not tone down or otherwise alter the lethality, accessibility, or visibility of them and then allow externalities like moronic LRPers to be applied?

Stickymayhem wrote: ↑Mon Feb 07, 2022 8:49 pm Alternatively, we can follow the existing ruleset and not assume that events are any different. You chose to crack open the crate. If it was full of pugs you would have been fine, it was full of supermatter spiders, so you got a dayban for killing a crewmember. You were told "If you open this box many people will die", you did it anyway, people died and you got banned.

That wooden crate could have been a safe, a keypad/ID-locked cargo crate constructed from adamantium, a lavaland chest that instantly gibs anyone not moving it with specialised gloves, and so on. You never gave any indication that you had walking supermatter shards contained within. Instead, I believe either unintentionally or otherwise, you created Schrödinger's Bait, a wooden crate that causes a state of inverted quantum superposition on any curious tider in its proximity; whereby they exist simultaneously in states of being banned and not-banned until the crate is opened.

Stickymayhem wrote: ↑Mon Feb 07, 2022 8:49 pm The part that's particularly telling is that your justification relies on the assumption that your behaviour is reasonable and my event is unreasonable because others on Terry would behave similarly, not realizing that your own ban here is specifically designed to prevent that. Ironically this assumption is only true if I don't ban you. But I did, so it isn't.

Or, my justification is in part based on the assumption that the Terry hivemind, a phenomenon well-known to Terrymins and Terry's inhabitants, is inherently a chaotic one that doesn't tend to interact neatly with ill-defined events linked with lethal consequences if handled poorly. My actions weren't reasonable, but they were based on the assumption that those of the admins were also unreasonable. Fuck me for calling the bluff of the one admin comfortable with putting instant-dust objects inside of a one-click object, on an unprotected shuttle, on an LRP server, right?

Stickymayhem wrote: ↑Mon Feb 07, 2022 8:49 pm There is no diffused responsibility here.

But, there is. It's a hearty concoction of mismanagement and risk, topped with a sprinkle of naiveté on both sides.

Stickymayhem wrote: ↑Mon Feb 07, 2022 8:49 pm ...the precedent set by doing so would make events essentially impossible to run anymore.

Nice slippery slope fallacy, but I don't think any precedent would be set by altering or removing this note other than you thinking it out a bit more before pushing buttons.

I'd like a headmin to review this, please.

For the appealer's benefit, they are pulling log information from this shift's parsed logs at
https://tgstation13.org/parsed-logs/ter ... 8/game.txt

The raw logs contain the missing information about the command reports that were censored from the parsed game logs. The below link is accessible only to users with elevated access permissions.
https://tgstation13.org/raw-logs/terry/ ... 8/game.log

The following logs were extracted from Terry's IT-BOOB round via the raw logs with regard to the command reports submitted.

Some relevant logs: https://scrubby.melonmesa.com/round/178 ... e=game.txt

The description on the box The box is made essentially indestructible (To ward off ranged attacks or unintentional activation from afar) The energy shield marine is created, the shuttle is redesigned and fortified with glass separating the crate from the front and r-walls. Not including the three separate prior announcements I also said this literally in front of you. The demands you place on an event to be idiotproofed against you are unreasonable and practically impossible. The far easier alternative is to ban players like you who break rule 1.

You mention Schrödinger's Bait, a superposition between banned or not banned until the crate is opened. This is true only if you assume the tider HAS to open the crate. Your entitlement doesn't supercede the rules, or the consequences of your actions. If you are told something is destructive, then you do everything in your power to trigger the destructive event, then claim surprise and shock after the fact, you are being disingenous.

You mention the Terry culture, as if this is an immutable characteristic and not something that can be improved with bans precisely like this one. I have no interest in building events that compensate for the lowest common denominators tendency towards destruction. They'll die, or be banned, or learn, until it stops happening.

Your lack of information was a choice borne of your immediate beelining towards the worst consequence. As a particularly relevant example:
The crate was "constructed from adamantium" as it was indestructible. The supermatter spiders were explicitly mentioned in the description on the box. Two out of your own requests here are essentially met and you still fucked up. Even your own suggestions to prevent this issue from happening wouldn't have prevented the issue. If I made the chest instagib anyone who touched it without special gloves, the complaint would be about that instead.

I accept no responsibility for your deliberate ignorance.

Stickymayhem wrote: ↑Mon Feb 07, 2022 11:36 pm Some relevant logs: https://scrubby.melonmesa.com/round/178 ... e=game.txt

The description on the box

► Show Spoiler

Stickymayhem/(Jack Steiner) modified DANGEROUS SPECIMEN CRATE's desc from A hefty wooden crate. You'll need a crowbar to get it open. to A hefty wooden crate. You'll need a crowbar to get it open. A label on the side reads: SUPERMATTER SPIDERS, DO NOT OPEN OUTSIDE OF CONTAINMENT. HANDLE WITH GLOVES. OPEN USING A SILICON OR EXPENDABLE CREW.

The box is made essentially indestructible (To ward off ranged attacks or unintentional activation from afar)

► Show Spoiler

07:29:06 ADMIN Stickymayhem/(Jack Steiner) modified The large crate's uses_integrity from 1 to 0

The energy shield marine is created, the shuttle is redesigned and fortified with glass separating the crate from the front and r-walls.

► Show Spoiler

07:31:42 ADMIN Stickymayhem/(Jack Steiner) spawned 1 x /obj/item/clothing/suit/armor/heavy (139, 83, 1) CentCom Transport Shuttle Dock
07:31:51 GAME Stickymayhem/(Jack Steiner) Jack Steiner name changed from Jack Steiner to Specimen Escort (140, 83, 1) CentCom Transport Shuttle Dock
07:32:00 ADMIN Stickymayhem/(Specimen Escort) spawned 1 x /obj/item/clothing/head/helmet/marine (140, 83, 1) CentCom Transport Shuttle Dock
07:32:09 ADMIN Stickymayhem/(Specimen Escort) spawned 1 x /obj/item/mod/module/energy_shield
07:33:23 ADMIN Build Mode: Stickymayhem/(Specimen Escort) built the reinforced wall (130, 80, 1) Transport Shuttle
07:33:23 ADMIN Build Mode: Stickymayhem/(Specimen Escort) built the reinforced wall (130, 80, 1) Transport Shuttle
07:33:24 ADMIN Build Mode: Stickymayhem/(Specimen Escort) built the reinforced wall (131, 80, 1) Transport Shuttle
07:33:24 ADMIN Build Mode: Stickymayhem/(Specimen Escort) built the reinforced wall (131, 80, 1) Transport Shuttle
07:33:24 ADMIN Build Mode: Stickymayhem/(Specimen Escort) built the reinforced wall (131, 80, 1) Transport Shuttle
07:33:24 ADMIN Build Mode: Stickymayhem/(Specimen Escort) built the reinforced wall (132, 80, 1) Transport Shuttle
07:33:25 ADMIN Build Mode: Stickymayhem/(Specimen Escort) built the reinforced wall (132, 80, 1) Transport Shuttle
07:33:25 ADMIN Build Mode: Stickymayhem/(Specimen Escort) built the reinforced wall (129, 80, 1) Transport Shuttle
07:33:25 ADMIN Build Mode: Stickymayhem/(Specimen Escort) built the reinforced wall (128, 80, 1) Transport Shuttle
07:33:26 ADMIN Build Mode: Stickymayhem/(Specimen Escort) built the reinforced wall (128, 80, 1) Transport Shuttle
07:33:27 ADMIN Build Mode: Stickymayhem/(Specimen Escort) built the reinforced wall (129, 84, 1) Transport Shuttle
07:33:27 ADMIN Build Mode: Stickymayhem/(Specimen Escort) built the reinforced wall

Not including the three separate prior announcements I also said this literally in front of you.

► Show Spoiler

Stickymayhem/(Specimen Escort) "Interference would literally mean the end of the station"

The demands you place on an event to be idiotproofed against you are unreasonable and practically impossible. The far easier alternative is to ban players like you who break rule 1.

If it's reasonable to jump through all of those hoops to make a crate impervious to harm, then surely is it not also reasonable to select a container that can be opened with means alternate to a man with a crowbar? If you wanted to make it an Antag-and-Command/Security-only event then why not add a keylock and transmit the combination to clandestine agents onboard on behalf of Syndicate Command? I feel like you're sidestepping around this either to save face or mask intentional malice now.

Stickymayhem wrote: ↑Mon Feb 07, 2022 11:36 pm You mention Schrödinger's Bait, a superposition between banned or not banned until the crate is opened. This is true only if you assume the tider HAS to open the crate. Your entitlement doesn't supercede the rules, or the consequences of your actions. If you are told something is destructive, then you do everything in your power to trigger the destructive event, then claim surprise and shock after the fact, you are being disingenuous.

I disagree with the position that the crate has to be opened, replacing 'has to be' with 'highly likely to be' owing to the air of danger and mystique you manufactured surrounding it. You created a situation where a mysterious, allegedly dangerous box that can be opened with the simplest of tools is put in full view of the entire crew; and then held members of Security and Command escorting it hostage with it. If a thing looks like a bomb, beeps like a bomb, has wires like a bomb, and counts down like a bomb, I'm probably not going to go near it barring wirecutters, an evacuated local area, and a pledge of martyrdom for the crew. As you've said, it could've been filled with pugs and bike horns, that's pretty standard fare for a semi-elaborate admin prank, but instead, it was roughly equivalent to a death-ray packaged as a water pistol.

Stickymayhem wrote: ↑Mon Feb 07, 2022 11:36 pm You mention the Terry culture, as if this is an immutable characteristic and not something that can be improved with bans precisely like this one. I have no interest in building events that compensate for the lowest common denominators tendency towards destruction. They'll die, or be banned, or learn, until it stops happening.

Not immutable, but well-established; and here I can really hear malice talking. Aren't events supposed to be inclusive and fun, instead of a means of Pavlovian conditioning through negative feedback?

Stickymayhem wrote: ↑Mon Feb 07, 2022 11:36 pm Your lack of information was a choice borne of your immediate beelining towards the worst consequence. As a particularly relevant example:

► Show Spoiler

That wooden crate could have been a safe, a keypad/ID-locked cargo crate constructed from adamantium, a lavaland chest that instantly gibs anyone not moving it with specialised gloves, and so on. You never gave any indication that you had walking supermatter shards contained within.

The crate was "constructed from adamantium" as it was indestructible. The supermatter spiders were explicitly mentioned in the description on the box. Two out of your own requests here are essentially met and you still fucked up. Even your own suggestions to prevent this issue from happening wouldn't have prevented the issue. If I made the chest instagib anyone who touched it without special gloves, the complaint would be about that instead.

Clowns can order a firing pin that makes a regular-looking gun turn into a means of assisted suicide, in a game about roleplay and deception as you've previously cited, does it not stand to reason that the description and fanfare concerning the contents could be a smokescreen for something else entirely? I ask this rhetorically because I consider tasteful admin events not to consist of kindergarten rules wrapped in lethal ramifications and bans, and would normally expect the juxtaposition of WARNING: EXTREME DANGER and a fucking wooden crate to be a bit worthy of Wile E. Coyote.

Not to peanut; I was the CMO this shift, and was next to the crate right when it was opened. I've recorded the whole round, and will post a video of the event in about 11 hours from this post when I arrive back home from work. Because a video can speak a thousand words.

As you've said, it could've been filled with pugs and bike horns, that's pretty standard fare for a semi-elaborate admin prank, but instead, it was roughly equivalent to a death-ray packaged as a water pistol.

It was a gun. You were told three times it was a gun. You were told in person it was a gun. You barrelled through an entire security force to get to the gun. You ignored the label on the side of the gun that said "THIS IS A GUN" in capital letters and then you were surprised when you triggered it and someone died.

Grow up. You're not mature enough to play this game if you're overwhelmed by entitlement to involve yourself in everything.

Stickymayhem wrote: ↑Tue Feb 08, 2022 8:29 am

As you've said, it could've been filled with pugs and bike horns, that's pretty standard fare for a semi-elaborate admin prank, but instead, it was roughly equivalent to a death-ray packaged as a water pistol.

It was a gun. You were told three times it was a gun. You were told in person it was a gun. You barrelled through an entire security force to get to the gun. You ignored the label on the side of the gun that said "THIS IS A GUN" in capital letters and then you were surprised when you triggered it and someone died.

Grow up. You're not mature enough to play this game if you're overwhelmed by entitlement to involve yourself in everything.

I stand by the argument that it could have just as easily been any number of non-lethal hooks for crew engagement, and that it's irresponsible to inflate interest in something so lethal, yet so easily misinterpretable and attainable.

I'm sorry that you think that entitlement equates to interacting with your hamfisted creativity the wrong way in a 2d spessmans game.

Hi,

As promised, a video of the event:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aK0SLDFe9uo

The action starts about halfway in.

Not trying to necro, just reiterating my request for headmin review to have the note altered or removed, in case the original was lost in the weeds.

The multiple announcements made by Sticky were sufficient warning.

You fucked around and found out, someone dusted due to your actions and you were banned for it.


Headmin Votes:
RaveRadbury: Uphold
NamelessFairy: Uphold
Dragomagol: Uphold