Security ERT is apparently Deathsquad now

[Retrokinesis]

This was during a Double Agent round that just ended. I'm a shaft miner DA with the objectives to assassinate Shirtless Dave (also a DA) and escape without being in custody. Easy enough. I buy a random crate like I always do; nothing sticks-out as particularly interesting so I figure I'll just dick around and hope someone else kills Dave, since they usually do. Since somebody almost immediately starts shouting about him blowing stuff up, I figure this was a good call. I play with the new hardsuit helmet, find some gibtonite, immediately lose it trying to blow-up a goliath, and finally manage to find some diamonds.

Back on the station, captain announces he called for ERT by bribing them with plasma. Haven't heard a word from or about my target since the very beginning, so I deposit all my minerals and decide to fuck-off into space to look for space carp until the shuttle comes. I manage to do most of a loop around the station (passing Ronald Jerome breaking into the brig from space, but that's not my problem) until I run into an ERT Security Officer near the SE solars. At first, I thought it was a nuke op but I saw the name and decided to wave. He immediately whacks me with a stun baton, takes the minibomb from my satchel, and arms and throws it at me. I bleed out a few second later as he strips my suit so I husk and leaves my corpse in space.

I figured that since they just had the generic ERT Security Officer name and were so quick to kill me, it was probably someone with me as their target just wearing the suit. I ahelp it just to be sure and the following conversation takes place. I don't have the beginning of it since the log decided not to go back that far, so if an admin has the rest it would be appreciated...

Spoiler:

Admin PM from-AN0n3: The station's on red alert right now. Random searches are permitted.
PM to-Admins: Random searches IN SPACE? Followed by summary execution and husking?
Admin PM from-AN0n3: Random searches are random searches. You got caught with traitor items and executed for it by an ERT. Nothing out of the ordinary here.
PM to-Admins: That's still a summary execution without the captain or HoS' permission. Or, you know, even attempting to arrest me while I was stunned and on the ground.
Admin PM from-AN0n3: They're an ERT. They technically outrank everyone on the station. They don't need to arrest you for having traitor items.
PM to-Admins: So, just so I have this for the record, you're saying official policy is that ERT has unlimited authority and can do whatever they want with no regard for standard procedures?
Admin PM from-AN0n3: No. It was a red alert. Random searches are permitted. You were randomly searched and caught with traitor items so they executed you.
Admin PM from-AN0n3: What part of this is hard to understand?
Admin PM from-AN0n3: They didn't just randomly execute you because they felt like it. They searched you under code red alert, caught you with major crime traitor items, and executed you for them.
PM to-Admins: The fact that nothing about red alert ALLOWS summary executions. That's DELTA. If a regular sec officer executed someone on the spot (via explosives that damage the station) during a red alert, they'd absolutely get shit for it.
Admin PM from-AN0n3: An ERT member isn't a regular sec officer.
PM to-Admins: So, again, official policy is that ERT is basically a license to do whatever you want because the normal procedures don't apply to you? Because that's BEGGING for abuse.
Admin PM from-AN0n3: Don't try to turn this into sweeping generalizations about policy. In this instance what they did was valid. We're done discussing it.
PM to-Admins: Then I'll be bringing this up on the forum and filing an abuse complaint.
You have been muted from adminhelp, admin PM and ASAY.
Admin PM from-AN0n3: Try reading this in the meantime
Admin PM from-AN0n3: https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Emergency_Response_Team

I don't know about you, but I can't find the part where it says you're allowed to ignore standard security procedure. I'd like this clarified as official server policy or not. I like ERT and think it's a good addition but, if it's just a license to validhunt with the best weapons in the game (that cannot be used against you) and ignore all the standard sec procedures, then why even bother having a regular security force?

[Fragnostic]

Hate to say it, but he's right.
Red alert=random search
He is also a sec officer technically, so he designated to do it, and is an ERT during an emergency of sorts.

Sorry, son, but today the salads was valids. He random searched you and found some shit, and since it's an emergency and he's ERT he can deal with that swiftly.
I don't want to say but it's just one round, I guess. Sucks that it was just out of your control like that, and you couldn't help it, but that's just spacemans.

[Timbrewolf]

I don't know about you, but I can't find the part where it says you're allowed to ignore standard security procedure.

No? Let me point it out for you:

This Part.png

Supevervisors: Central Command. They don't answer to the captain or anybody on the station. They are their own authority.

Duties: Secure the station at all costs. You were a threat to the station and became one of those "costs".

You keep talking about this situation like you were the innocent victim of a bunch of thugs randomly gunning people down but like I explained to you already five different ways you were caught skulking around in space with traitor items in your bag.

You would've received a pretty big message IC that the security status had been elevated.

There were multiple centcom reports and reports from the captain that the ERT was arriving/there/patrolling/enforcing justice/etc. You had every opportunity to ditch your items ahead of time. You choose not to heed any of those signals or warnings and keep your contraband, which lead to your doom.

That chain of events, getting caught carrying stuff you definitely shouldn't have and getting perma'd or executed for it, happens at least a few dozen times every day. This isn't any different. Nothing out of the ordinary or wrong happened here.


For those of you who might be curious I sent in the ERT after the captain made a bargain with Centcom to send us seven-times the plasma output in exchange for sending in an ERT to secure the station. The AI had already been subverted once at this point, the lights were flickering on and off, reports were coming in about murders and assaults taking place all over the station.

I checked the crew make up and yep. In a round of 70+ people there were somewhere around a dozen double agents battling it out and only 3 security officers + an AFK Head of Security. It seemed like a perfect opportunity to send in some heavy hitters to make sure the round wasn't just double-agents steam-rolling all over the crew and eachother.

[Ikarrus]

That's on a player written wiki, which is usually full of inaccuracies. It doesn't appear in game, isn't linked to in game and shouldn't be held against players.

[Timbrewolf]

It's the only readily-available information anyone has to go on regarding ERT's.

Deathsquads show up to kill everyone. ERT's show up to assist the station against antagonists. They come from Centcom directly, they have their own commander.

You say we shouldn't hold that against players but keep in mind that I'm citing this in defense of a player's actions as an ERT.

EDIT: Furthermore this section of the wiki was written by Steelpoint, Vekter, and YOU. So to say it's not credible as a source of game information...? I don't understand it.

[Malkevin]

"I got caught with tator items and was killed for it, plz ban he"
You know at one point even regular crew were within their rights to lynch anyone they saw with traitor items.


The only thing potentially wrong with this scenario is that Code Delta wasn't declared.
Should calling the ERT cause Code Delta to trigger, or manually triggered by admins?
This would also mean that security would be operating under Code Delta too - although that might not be inappropriate seeing as ERT is basically the equivalent to the National Guard/SWAT

[Steelpoint]

I think it would be good if we can get a definition on the authority a ERT Officer wields while on station. Right now we assume they have Centcom authority and outrank the Captain but there's been no headmin ruling on it.

Also I would like to codify the ERT and their response to the Deathsquad if they are deployed. Do they ally with them or fight them and vice versa.

I'll update the wiki once we've got it done.

[Alex Crimson]

I thought ERT was supposed to be a super emergency only event. Admins are calling them in so they can validhunt random traitors? Thats terrible.

[Jacquerel]

I thought ERT was supposed to be a super emergency only event. Admins are calling them in so they can validhunt random traitors? Thats terrible.

I sent in the ERT after the captain made a bargain with Centcom to send us seven-times the plasma output in exchange for sending in an ERT to secure the station. The AI had already been subverted once at this point, the lights were flickering on and off, reports were coming in about murders and assaults taking place all over the station.

I checked the crew make up and yep. In a round of 70+ people there were somewhere around a dozen double agents battling it out and only 3 security officers + an AFK Head of Security. It seemed like a perfect opportunity to send in some heavy hitters to make sure the round wasn't just double-agents steam-rolling all over the crew and eachother.

yeah it was definitely an ERT called specifically to hunt this one random dude, that's what happened

[Alex Crimson]

Pretty sure i said random traitorS.

[Jacquerel]

Pretty sure i said random traitorS.

it was for 12 traitors and an evil AI in a round with 3 security members, after an in-character request from the captain, while the station was losing power
(that's four traitors for every cop, then the AI between them)

[Alex Crimson]

Just because there are a lot of traitors it doesnt automatically mean they are all going to destroy the station. ERT, as i understand it, is a friendly version of a deathsquad. If you were an admin, would you have called a deathsquad in this situation, if the answer is no then there probably shouldnt be an ERT involved either.

If the ERT is just going to Sec up and validhunt for traitors then i do not see the point in having it. There was a similar role on NoX and it turned into a terrible job full of antag hunting.

[mikecari]

it was for 12 traitors and an evil AI in a round with 3 security members, after an in-character request from the captain, while the station was losing power
(that's four traitors for every cop, then the AI between them)

I was the captain who requested the ERT to arrive, and yeah, shit was really fucked. The corpses were piling up and we literally had no security. There were hull breaches all over the place, including the brig and medbay and it was absolutely necessary for someone to fix the problem.

[peoplearestrange]

That's on a player written wiki, which is usually full of inaccuracies. It doesn't appear in game, isn't linked to in game and shouldn't be held against players.

The thing is the wiki is also the only obvious source of server rules as well, its where people need to take stuff from really.

I always thought it was fairly clear the ERT aren't a deathsquad as they don't kill-on-sigh absolutely everything, they're just like a stimed/well equipped crew.
Hence why its fine for them to act like sec, or enginers or medics etc only with more power.

I'm not sure the sec officer should have KILLED the tator during a red alert, maybe sec ERT should come with a huge rack of zip-ties to deal with multiple perps, and maybe a tele-location beacon (teleports users to a central command style perma? or removes them from the round in more of a IC way at least, similar to the net that the ninja can capture people with).

[Vekter]

The ERT helps the station while the Deathsquad secures it. While I agree with An0n that the ERT didn't do anything wrong, maybe the deathsquad button would've worked better here.

[Scones]

Fact that this ERT member didn't even cuff this traitor is odd, like he knew what he can find. And ERT members are drawn from ghost pool, right?

Valid point is anyone cares enough to investigate accusations of metaknowledge (Or whatever the fuck you want to call knowledge obtained from deadchat/ghosting)

Anyways, if ERT is going to function as Deathsquad with a few more tools, you might as well remove the latter seeing as they are only different in a fluff sense. I liked the concept of ERT as something that comes, helps with a specific out-of-hand problem, and then fucks off back to Central. They should not commit summary executions on people, in space, during code red. The fact that an ERT member was fucking around alone in space in the first place is indicative of some sort of player misinterpretation of the concept of ERT - They are a team sent in with a specific task.

Was an ERT deployed because there wasn't enough Security? Really? That's awful. I know the woes of low-count sec but deploying the admin god-team without specific objectives and just saying "yeah there are a lot of antags, go ballistic on a motherfucker". At that point they are literally 5 admin-approved antag hunters with pulse weapons and buffed equipment.

[Loonikus]

On the other hand, if the tators kept quiet and didn't cause as much chaos as humanly possible, than the ERT squad would have never been called. Calling the ERT just because you want more officers is bad, but if there are syndicate agents rampaging across the station and you have no ability to stop them, calling the ERT is a perfectly reasonable response.

I also think we have a big enough distinction between the ERT and the deathsquad to warrant both existing. The ERT isn't just there to back up security, their job is to fix problems, deal with any overt threats to the station, and get out. If your a problem, they won't hesitate to "fix" you just as they won't hesitate to fix other issues. So ya, their primary duty is getting the station back in working order, but if they find that some of the crew are part of the issue than they are given authorization by Centcom to deal with them in any way they see fit. Meanwhile, deathsquads (almost always) mean that the station is FUBAR, all employment contracts are terminated, and the crew have become nothing but loose ends.

[callanrockslol]

ERT button needs to be clicked less.

[Ikarrus]

ERT button needs to be clicked less.

Coding an event as an admin button is the best way to ruin said event.

[Timbrewolf]

Can regular security members stun everyone to search them while under code red?

Fact that this ERT member didn't even cuff this traitor is odd, like he knew what he can find. And ERT members are drawn from ghost pool, right?

Now that you put it this way, this is something I should definitely look into. Someone getting a second chance to come back and specifically grudge the person who killed them is a major no-no. I hadn't considered that as a possibility. BRB log diving.

EDIT: The ERT sec officer (swebster92) that found and killed Retrokinesis didn't have any previous interactions with them in the round as far as attacks go. This wasn't someone getting killed by them and then coming back as an ERT to chase them down and get revenge. The first time they cross paths in the attack log is when they stunned Retro in space to search them.

[RG4]

Can regular security members stun everyone to search them while under code red?

Fact that this ERT member didn't even cuff this traitor is odd, like he knew what he can find. And ERT members are drawn from ghost pool, right?

Now that you put it this way, this is something I should definitely look into. Someone getting a second chance to come back and specifically grudge the person who killed them is a major no-no. I hadn't considered that as a possibility. BRB log diving.

EDIT: The ERT sec officer (swebster92) that found and killed Retrokinesis didn't have any previous interactions with them in the round as far as attacks go. This wasn't someone getting killed by them and then coming back as an ERT to chase them down and get revenge. The first time they cross paths in the attack log is when they stunned Retro in space to search them.

Seems like pretty shitty behavior that he immediately executed him, provided that the OP didn't kill anyone or wasn't suspected of anything. Having the items easily says he's a traitor unless confirmed he dunked a traitor to get them but come on that is classic shitsec behavior just because you find traitor items means instant execution. Permabrigging is always a far worse fate because you're trabbed doing nothing instead of being a ghost spectating.

[Malkevin]

Permabrigging is always a far worse fate because you're trapped doing nothing instead of being a ghost spectating.

Why do people say this?
Its really dumb fucking saying right up there with 'mah valids' and 'shitcurrity'.
Security executes you and thats it, you can't do anything else but ghost.

Security permas you and you can either do the activities in perma or you can suicide/ghost/or even punch yourself in the face repeatedly to leave a clonable corpse (which is a very likely escape method because so many AIs/Borgs don't seem to grasp the concept that dead humans are the best humans - as they can neither cause harm or be harmed).

You have a lot more choices as a perma prisoner than you do an executed one, so therefore it can not be worse.

[Timbrewolf]

The ERT is charged with reclaiming the station at all costs, returning it to a secure state of normalcy. They come loaded with fantastic armor and some of the biggest guns in the game.

They're not a deathsquad but they aren't security officers in nicer gear either. If they identity an obvious threat to the station as clearly as they did here I think it should be within their SOP to stomp it out on the stop.

When you get word that they've arrived on station and are patrolling it's time to find a place to stash your items and blend in, or get REALLY SNEAKY. If you can't figure out how to hide in plain sight you're lacking one of the core skills of this whole game. I've said this before in other topics and its a tactic I use when I'm an antag: get your shit done fast and then ditch everything. Holding on to that random syndicate bomb in your backpack is a lot more trouble than it's worth during a red alert. It's exponentially worse when there's also an ERT roaming around.

[Scott]

On the other hand, if the tators kept quiet and didn't cause as much chaos as humanly possible, than the ERT squad would have never been called. Calling the ERT just because you want more officers is bad, but if there are syndicate agents rampaging across the station and you have no ability to stop them, calling the ERT is a perfectly reasonable response.

This. DA always results in total chaos. When players learn to play DA stealthily, maybe ERT won't be called every time.

[peoplearestrange]

On the other hand, if the tators kept quiet and didn't cause as much chaos as humanly possible, than the ERT squad would have never been called. Calling the ERT just because you want more officers is bad, but if there are syndicate agents rampaging across the station and you have no ability to stop them, calling the ERT is a perfectly reasonable response.

This. DA always results in total chaos. When players learn to play DA stealthily, maybe ERT won't be called every time.

I always saw the ERT as an anti against organised masses. In other words, cults, revs and xeno's, blobs and the like. Not just for use when security is getting there ass handed to them by DA's or general traitors. ERT should be a rare thing, otherwise it looses its novelty.

I always say from an IC perspective that its because send the ERT is extremely expensive and NT are always looking to cut costs at every turn, even if it means loosing employees, so long as the station can be salvaged. Don't forget there is always the emergency shuttle for when things get out of hand (I like to imagine NT sending in a mop up and repair team after the round ends).

[Redblaze3000]

I think the ert commander should be above everyone else and the other ones should have the captains authority over the crew. That means they should be allowed to execute with no discretion.

[Timbrewolf]

I don't think ERT should get called every time some antagonists get the upper hand.
But like it was poined out, there were four traitors for every single active security guard.

FOUR.TRAITORS.PER.SECURITY GUARD.

The round wasn't even going on 30 minutes and the AI had already been subverted, multiple homicides and assaults reported, brown outs all over the station, etc.

To me this was the PERFECT time to send an ERT in. It's not a matter of whether the station is going to win or lose, it's a matter of whether the antagonists are actually going to have anyone to fight against or not. Antagonists should always have some kind of opposition. There was no risk of them being caught or battling with security...there was hardly any functional security at all.

[Raven776]

Literally the OP's statement says it all.

"I was an antagonist, and shit was fucked without me touching anything and I needed to do literally nothing to greentext."

Well, suddenly he had a new wall of opposition, an equally incompetent person with better equipment. He got dunked for being an obvious antag, and there's no question as to whether or not an ERT should be patrolling space... Space is one of the places where people go most often to avoid regular security. And antags almost ALWAYS wave at the people...

And waving doesn't break disguise, so it's a common tactic to hide the fact that you're wearing a mining rig that was previously the possession of Gibs McCloud.

You were shifty as fuck and died for it. The ERTs were the response to a round that was fucked harder than usual.

[Cipher3]

"I was an antagonist, and shit was fucked without me touching anything and I needed to do literally nothing to greentext."

Yep

Well, suddenly he had a new wall of opposition, an equally incompetent person with better equipment.

Yep, interest.

He got dunked for being an obvious antag

Um...

And antags almost ALWAYS wave at the people...

what

[Cipher3]

>He waved at me, REASONABLE SUSPICION.

It actually wasn't because he was hiding his identity or planning to kill the officer in this case. This is a clear counter-example to your argument, which was rather meta in the first place. If you think someone's hiding their identity tell them to remove their masks/speak.

[Raven776]

>He waved at me, REASONABLE SUSPICION.

It actually wasn't because he was hiding his identity or planning to kill the officer in this case. This is a clear counter-example to your argument, which was rather meta in the first place. If you think someone's hiding their identity tell them to remove their masks/speak.

>In space

But seriously, waving with your face concealed is one of the most common gloating tactics of someone using a stolen identity. If anyone has a right to metagame things like stolen identities, it's security. I mean, you can complain that it's metagaming, but you can't bash security for thought crime if they realize someone's being fishy as fuck.

[Cipher3]

Assuming they ARE in space then he actually couldn't talk, remember. Waving was the only form of communication without moving directly up to him. OH HE'S NEXT TO ME THAT'S SUSPICIOUS.

Also, friendly reminder that he actually didn't wave for any suspicious reason but feeling like waving. Nice criminal analysis.

[Malkevin]

But we're not running bay code and so can talk in space?

[Jacough]

Also I would like to codify the ERT and their response to the Deathsquad if they are deployed. Do they ally with them or fight them and vice versa.

I'll update the wiki once we've got it done.

Honestly from a roleplay perspective it'd probably make sense for Centcom to just tell them to get back on their shuttle and pull out. They may be there to respond to an emergency but they also answer to Nanotrasen and if Nanotrasen wants to send in a heavily armed team of soldiers to give the station a new paint job with blood, burnt flesh, and grey matter then hey, orders are orders. Their job there is done, time to let the heavies take over.

[RG4]

It was recently changed

Holy Jesus fuck why, just fucking why?

[Balut]

The ERT is charged with reclaiming the station at all costs, returning it to a secure state of normalcy. They come loaded with fantastic armor and some of the biggest guns in the game.

I'm still not sure what the fuck the point of this is from a design standpoint. Traitors fuck the station, the ERT unfucks it to what purpose? To make it so the station DOESN'T evacuate? To just fuck over whatever traitors survived and did good in the round, with some shitty admin event they can't counter? Why is this desirable? How does this fit into the lore, which is - as I understand it - that SS13 is a shitty, expendable, and just barely supported research station.

And I know it's nitpicking but fuck you it doesn't even have the sense of humor to call itself the ERP.

[DemonFiren]

It really should call itself the ERP, since a lot of people seem to be of the opinion it is highly disruptive and only serves to draw a lot of attention.
Also, it involves people getting fucked.

[Timbrewolf]

The ERT is charged with reclaiming the station at all costs, returning it to a secure state of normalcy. They come loaded with fantastic armor and some of the biggest guns in the game.

I'm still not sure what the fuck the point of this is from a design standpoint. Traitors fuck the station, the ERT unfucks it to what purpose? To make it so the station DOESN'T evacuate? To just fuck over whatever traitors survived and did good in the round, with some shitty admin event they can't counter? Why is this desirable? How does this fit into the lore, which is - as I understand it - that SS13 is a shitty, expendable, and just barely supported research station.

And I know it's nitpicking but fuck you it doesn't even have the sense of humor to call itself the ERP.

Your perceptions as a game master are pretty limited there. You certainly could use them to "fuck over traitors" but I wouldn't. For the same reason I think I've only ever pushed the Deathsquad button maybe once or twice in all these years, nobody should use a "admins shit on everyone" button.

ERT bolsters the station defenses when a round is really lopsided in the antags favor. A rev round that starts with the captain, a CMO, and three sec officers while the station has a pop of like 60? Fuck that, ERT.
Antagonists have tussled with the station and its crew all round and are coming out on top? Don't send in shit. They earned this.

ERT is a nice way to snap your fingers and create something that makes the station tougher, ups the ante for the antagonists, while requiring only a limited number of volunteers to make it happen. Antagonists should have some opposition from the station, without it there's no gameplay here. If a round gets underway and things are turning into a total shutout or look like they will purely because of population numbers and not because of smart moves and skill, it's a good opportunity for an ERT to come in and even the playing field.

[rockpecker]

ERT button needs to be clicked less.

This. Can we restrict admins to one ERT per week or something?

[Loonikus]

ERT button needs to be clicked less.

This. Can we restrict admins to one ERT per week or something?

As soon as antags stop gutting the station and forcing a shuttle call in less than an hour than sure.

[mikecari]

As soon as antags stop gutting the station and forcing a shuttle call in less than an hour than sure.

Exactly, if traitors and double agents stopped murderboning the station there'd be no need for an ERT and there'd be no angry ghosts.

[delaron]

So I think there needs to be a better setup for ERT. They should be multiple loadouts for ERT.

-Station is full of breeches and fires?
--Send in 2 Sec ERT to guard the 3 Engineering ERT

-Station being over ran by Revs?
--Send in 4 Sec ERT and a ERT Medic

-Station has a huge cult?
--Send in 3 Sec ERT, an ERT Chaplin and an ERT wizard? (magic sensitive?)

Give the ERT more unit feasibility similar to Military squads. While yes they can all shoot there should be a more specific special role to any given ERT member.

[DemonFiren]

>ERT chaplain.
No. Just give the ERT holy hand grenades.

[Luke Cox]

As a security officer or HoS, if you're running around in space for any reason other than for your job, you will be stopped. Miners are especially suspicious. The goal of the ERT is to secure the station from whatever threat it was facing. In this case, it was you. From what I understand, they do not need the permission of the captain to partake in any action directly related to this goal. They are free to kill obvious traitors. It's a martial law type situation.