Medibots are the new Medbay crutch

[Dezupher]

When it comes to healing, medibots do the actual job of healing way easier and better then doctors can, with essentially infinite healing potential with zero resource cost other than the cheap construction of a medibot.
At the same time, Medibots have become very critical to have for Medbay and have proved to be solid floor that Medbay can rely on when things are very difficult. They're often very crucial in keeping Medbay functioning when masses of injured start walking in. Which should be something the Medbay staff and its efforts are responsible for, not little Medibots made at robotics.

With all surgeries researched, something not difficult to achieve totaling in at only 8500 research points for experimental surgeries and found very early on into the tech tree, Medibots can heal people at 10 of all common damage types per wound tend. Making the person with the job to tend wounds almost obsolete.
Almost every round I see two bots parked next to the stasis beds, providing infinite free healing at no cost or effort from the doctors.
They heal so quickly and efficiently fully upgraded, it reduces the MD job to essentially a body repair job. Just fix up or replace the organs, defib, and then let the bots do the rest.

Here's how the MD job works at the moment, with a single fully upgraded bot in Medbay.
Someone comes in with minor damage? Park em next to the bot.
Paramedic brings someone in crit? Park em next to the bot.
You just defibbed someone but they're still heavily damaged? Park em next to the bot.

Are you a Paramedic following suit sensors to someone injured? Drag a Medibot on stationary mode behind you and you won't even have to bring them to Medbay as long as they aren't dead when you arrive, the Medibot can heal them better than you can.

They're often occasionally mass produced, with 10 of these little roaming the halls, healing anyone with so much as a scratch before they have to go to medbay.

They've become the new crutch for medbay to rely on, just like sleepers were in the past, and then cloning. But at least you had to interact with another player on some level when they threw you into a sleeper or the cloner, now you just afk in front of a bot for 10 seconds then you're good to go. Medibots should be nerfed, and Medbay should be empowered to be able to heal people better than a tiny little autonomous robot.

[Tlaltecuhtli]

they arent that great until 400% efficiency upgrade, but shouldt be changed until bamboo bones pr is merged as it ll shake things up as wounds might not be healable by medibots, etc. bring the discussion later

[Flatulent]

medibots cant replace your liver or fix your brain but to be fair neither can MDs

[Ivuchnu]

Obviously MDs will do optimal thing every time if keeping people playing is what they aim for.

What is the end goal? Making damage permanent and forcing MD to surgery away everything? TW is not interesting or engaging. Scalpel, hemostat, AFK a bit depending on how fucked up body is, cautery, unbuckle, defib and CPR if dead, shake them up and kick them out. WOW. That happens for most bodies. Monkeyman head transplant or printing all organs and tediously replacing all organs if body is fucked (people forget to use their epipen for that formaldehyde dose) is other alternative. Deaths to poisons are quite rare, TW, defib and CPR is what happening most of time. I don't think forcing more of that by removing or nerfing those fragile bots is any good.

Also

>hmm, Manuel TDM mode chance is not good enough, need more of nukies, wiz, revs and cult

Do you hate vertical spacemen?

[angelstarri]

medibots cant replace your liver or fix your brain but to be fair neither can MDs

[Reeeee]

Isn't the whole balance idea that medbay DOES get overwhelmed and HAS TO triage?
You know the whole, station is doomed thing?

These days they make me out of crit after defibbing and then toss me out and then i near instant crit as soon as i leave medbay.
rather DNR, ten minutes of doing nothing serves no purpose to me personally, since you absolutely have absolutely nothing to do.
Ony defib when 100% fixed, thanks.
Remove medibots.

[Shadowflame909]

What is the end goal? Making damage permanent and forcing MD to surgery away everything? TW is not interesting or engaging. Scalpel, hemostat, AFK a bit depending ?

>Looking at the Wounds PR.

Yes.

Medbay only gets content by making the crew suffer.

Fuck medical. It needs to be merged with other non-crew suffering based jobs. So people arent incentivized to nerf EVERYTHING to make this job better.

[confused rock]

medibots cant replace your liver or fix your brain but to be fair neither can MDs

[Ayy Lemoh]

medibots cant replace your liver or fix your brain but to be fair neither can MDs

i don't think they can even cure poisons.

[PKPenguin321]

medibots cant replace your liver or fix your brain but to be fair neither can MDs

i don't think they can even cure poisons.

the assistant with 199 tox damage when medbay is out of cryo juice and "syringes from the green medkits"

[Flatulent]

medibots cant replace your liver or fix your brain but to be fair neither can MDs

i don't think they can even cure poisons.

the assistant with 199 tox damage when medbay is out of cryo juice and "syringes from the green medkits"

I swear to fucking god when this happens (mds can’t fix person with tend wounds or medkit chems) they repeatedly stick the person with epipen until he overdoses and fucking dies

[Cobby]

https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/51375

[Ivuchnu]

With surgery nerf in you chased away competent MD player I liked playing with. Good job. Care to buff surgery speed given we got no cloning, shit chems and this possible medibot nerf coming?

[Cobby]

what surgery nerf

[saprasam]

what surgery nerf

you cant do surgery on multiple people on the same time anymore and he's seething mad about it i guess

[confused rock]

I hate that nerf just because it makes the rod of mining is overpowered even more unbalanced

[saprasam]

I hate that nerf just because it makes the rod of mining is overpowered even more unbalanced

they cant fight back which means i get to just hit them with a fireaxe until they go horizontal

[Flatulent]

unless they regenerate faster than you can kill them which isn’t entirely unfeasible when you stack all healing sources + aclespius + armor

[Ayy Lemoh]

unless they regenerate faster than you can kill them which isn’t entirely unfeasible when you stack all healing sources + aclespius + armor

Unless it's instant regeneration that keeps him at 100 health 24/7, damn homie that guy who you've kept in crit for 5 minutes by repeatedly hitting him sure is dangerous. would be a shame if he woke up and started using his offensive combat moves such as pacifism. what will antags with INCREDIBLY DEADLY weapons ever be able to do?

[Cobby]

you just need to dismember the arm and they become a snake

[cacogen]

crutches should be the new medbay crutch because they're slow and a pain in the ass to use

[RG4ORDR]

Just remove medbay entirely. Why should there be a medical bay on an advanced research station?
Matter of fact, remove Clown,Mime, and Bartender, they don't contribute to the station!

Sheesh, you chuckled-fucked around with medical enough that now medibots are suddenly a MASSIVE PROBLEM. Is there any shocked that players managed to find a way to make healing not to be some retardedly complicated process on a medium to light RP server, despite the years of laughing at Baymed. Lmao, if you told someone in 2013 that /tg/ coders were looking into nerfing medbots because they became overpowered you'd have been laughed out of the community.

[oranges]

lmao he mad

[Cobby]

I don’t believe taking the bare minimum is a complicated concept.

[nianjiilical]

medibots made out of pink medkits should give motivational words of encouragement instead of actually tending wounds

[firecage]

Well, I guess we can update this to Cryo being the new crutch now? Since, well, you know. Cryo fixing wounds. So docs just toss in and forget.

[Super Aggro Crag]

Im sick of having to break into medbay as an assistant and do all the surgeries the actual med doctors are too incompetent or lazy to do. I see these idiots trying to defibrillate guys with 509 brute damage and a dead heart and wondering why its not working and they start asking someone if synthflesh would bring the guy back to life

[Sheodir]

Im sick of having to break into medbay as an assistant and do all the surgeries the actual med doctors are too incompetent or lazy to do. I see these idiots trying to defibrillate guys with 509 brute damage and a dead heart and wondering why its not working and they start asking someone if synthflesh would bring the guy back to life

The lack of skill in average medbay is disparaging. Are the tutorials just not updated on the wiki or something? It took me like two minutes of research to learn how to do the essential surgeries.

[Yenwodyah]

The lack of skill in average medbay is disparaging. Are the tutorials just not updated on the wiki or something? It took me like two minutes of research to learn how to do the essential surgeries.

Everyone who put in the effort to learn how to do medbay also learned that medbay is the most boring fucking job on the station.

[Mothblocks]

Im sick of having to break into medbay as an assistant and do all the surgeries the actual med doctors are too incompetent or lazy to do. I see these idiots trying to defibrillate guys with 509 brute damage and a dead heart and wondering why its not working and they start asking someone if synthflesh would bring the guy back to life

The lack of skill in average medbay is disparaging. Are the tutorials just not updated on the wiki or something? It took me like two minutes of research to learn how to do the essential surgeries.

The medical wiki is outdated and very hard to parse as a beginner. At the same time, a lot of the way to do medical is explicitly told to you in game through things like the operating computers. Messing up (such as using the wrong tool) regularly is just not allowed to go through, so it's easy to brute force it. Curing death, however, is not told through any in game mechanics (other than the book?) and brute forcing is much more challenging.

[oranges]

Im sick of having to break into medbay as an assistant and do all the surgeries the actual med doctors are too incompetent or lazy to do. I see these idiots trying to defibrillate guys with 509 brute damage and a dead heart and wondering why its not working and they start asking someone if synthflesh would bring the guy back to life

have you tried playing medbay and teaching others

[Sheodir]

Everyone who put in the effort to learn how to do medbay also learned that medbay is the most boring fucking job on the station.

Person who hasn't learned modern med detected. I'd call current Med many things, but not boring. I in fact distinctly started playing it because it has no chance to have a lot of non-engaging downtime. You're constantly having to think of systems over systems to solve the silly shit people get inflicted with, rather than the old old methods of "clone" or "stick in cryo pod and go play blackjack"

The medical wiki is outdated and very hard to parse as a beginner. At the same time, a lot of the way to do medical is explicitly told to you in game through things like the operating computers. Messing up (such as using the wrong tool) regularly is just not allowed to go through, so it's easy to brute force it. Curing death, however, is not told through any in game mechanics (other than the book?) and brute forcing is much more challenging.

The surgery computer is already excessively hand-holdy, honestly. The revival surgery isn't even hard and I've argued before that tend wounds + bypass makes it a bit braindead as is. Open up the heart, bypass, close it up, tend wounds (adv if possible) slap a couple patches to top them up and you've covered a lot of the simpler cases.

[Mothblocks]

The surgery computer is already excessively hand-holdy, honestly.

Why is this a problem? The alternative is making people open up the wiki, which has the same effect except it's not automatically updating and unnecessarily detracts from the world.

The revival surgery isn't even hard and I've argued before that tend wounds + bypass makes it a bit braindead as is. Open up the heart, bypass, close it up, tend wounds (adv if possible) slap a couple patches to top them up and you've covered a lot of the simpler cases.

I don't think anything about medbay is mechanically challenging. I just think the game and the wiki teach it very badly. That's why I do my best to teach people what I know through in game.

[cacogen]

I hate when my damaged prosthesis makes the medibot spam me with healing and ignore other people because it can't recognise the damage can't be fixed with medicine. I know this bug was reported a long time ago but nothing's been done about it.

I don't think anything about medbay is mechanically challenging. I just think the game and the wiki teach it very badly.

This. For example, Cobby could've written a tutorial for his chem changes if he wanted them to be better received but nothing can be player friendly. Everything must be secret whispered meta through Discord and code-diving.

[Mothblocks]

I hate when my damaged prosthesis makes the medibot spam me with healing and ignore other people because it can't recognise the damage can't be fixed with medicine. I know this bug was reported a long time ago but nothing's been done about it.

This should be a one line fix actually since I already fixed it for cryo.

This. Cobby could've written a tutorial for his chem changes if he wanted them to be better received but nothing can be player friendly.

Maybe, but not only do I think chemicals aren't as important to medbay as you might think (or as Cobby might want), I think a lot of the problem comes with the fact that the only real way to learn medical without a co-worker is to read a massive massive wiki page. I want more of this taught through gameplay.

[Cobby]

Chemicals have always been wiki bound, that is more of an issue with (again) my favorite machine rather than my specific rendition of particular chemicals. The chemistry system in anyform is very oriented around knowledge/memorization unless we built in the recipes into the machines directly.

As for existing ingame feedback, if you don't know what a chem does a function already exists to give you a description of what it does in the chemmaster, but you have to know that it has this function which would probably mean you read the wiki anyways. All of the chems I made give you a basic (no hard numbers obviously since its IC) overview of what the chem does in this description.

[Flatulent]

Everyone who put in the effort to learn how to do medbay also learned that medbay is the most boring fucking job on the station.

Person who hasn't learned modern med detected. I'd call current Med many things, but not boring. I in fact distinctly started playing it because it has no chance to have a lot of non-engaging downtime. You're constantly having to think of systems over systems to solve the silly shit people get inflicted with, rather than the old old methods of "clone" or "stick in cryo pod and go play blackjack"

it may be more interesting than old medbay but it still sucks balls because its just click some buttons and stare at a horizontal man until horizontal man goes vertical again

Im sick of having to break into medbay as an assistant and do all the surgeries the actual med doctors are too incompetent or lazy to do. I see these idiots trying to defibrillate guys with 509 brute damage and a dead heart and wondering why its not working and they start asking someone if synthflesh would bring the guy back to life

The lack of skill in average medbay is disparaging. Are the tutorials just not updated on the wiki or something? It took me like two minutes of research to learn how to do the essential surgeries.

the md tutorials are up to date and theres a fucking computer we have that literally tells you what to do in surgeries. its just that most people who roll medbay are really new.
but why would i look at any of that when i can do a comedy gold gimmick where i play MD then say "look man gotta look this shit up on space wiki" then do one surgery step per 2 minutes. if you hate this you hate rp.

[Sheodir]

Why is this a problem? The alternative is making people open up the wiki, which has the same effect except it's not automatically updating and unnecessarily detracts from the world.

No, the alternative is people actually learning it (be through another player or the wiki) and there having a consequence for getting it wrong rather than... nothing. It'd add actual mechanical depth which both you, caco and Flat complain about right under here.

I don't think anything about medbay is mechanically challenging. I just think the game and the wiki teach it very badly. That's why I do my best to teach people what I know through in game.

This. For example, Cobby could've written a tutorial for his chem changes if he wanted them to be better received but nothing can be player friendly. Everything must be secret whispered meta through Discord and code-diving.

it may be more interesting than old medbay but it still sucks balls because its just click some buttons and stare at a horizontal man until horizontal man goes vertical again

The wiki definitely needs editing to communicate it better but the whole 'it's not really that mechanically intensive, just click buttons until man goes vertical' shit is dishonest both because the entire game can be summarized in 'clicking man/thing until thing happens' - and on this front new Med has by far the most amounts of different steps and paths to solving complex wounds possible - but the absence of failure states due to the amount of handhold mechanics introduced (no hurting the patient with wrong step, surgery computers, cryo bed) actively removes a lot of depth from the role and you're defending keeping it.

I'm not even saying I'd like it removed, moreso that you're arguing X is a problem whilst actively defending the need to keep X as is.

[Mothblocks]

I don't think burden of knowledge adds depth at all. There's a difference between depth and complexity.

[Sheodir]

I don't think burden of knowledge adds depth at all. There's a difference between depth and complexity.

It's not the burden of knowledge that adds depth, but the concept of failure states that actually matter. For those to have any impact, you have to remove the computers that basically don't allow any failure. Failure is essential for depth.

[Helios]

I don't think burden of knowledge adds depth at all. There's a difference between depth and complexity.

It's not the burden of knowledge that adds depth, but the concept of failure states that actually matter. For those to have any impact, you have to remove the computers that basically don't allow any failure. Failure is essential for depth.

Failure is fine when the person who fails faces the consequences
That isn't the case with medical

[Sheodir]

Failure is fine when the person who fails faces the consequences
That isn't the case with medical

If an engineer fails to set up the SM, everyone faces the consequences
If a Cap fails to secure the disk, everyone faces the consequences
If Sec fails to contain an antag, everyone faces the consequences
If Viro is bad at containing a virus, everyone faces the consequences
If Miners are shit and get killed before getting minerals, everyone faces the consequences

This entire game is a web of people doing jobs where if they fail or suck at it, others are affected
That should be the case with Medical as well

[oranges]

Very true Sheodir

[Helios]

Failure is fine when the person who fails faces the consequences
That isn't the case with medical

If an engineer fails to set up the SM, everyone faces the consequences
If a Cap fails to secure the disk, everyone faces the consequences
If Sec fails to contain an antag, everyone faces the consequences
If Viro is bad at containing a virus, everyone faces the consequences
If Miners are shit and get killed before getting minerals, everyone faces the consequences

This entire game is a web of people doing jobs where if they fail or suck at it, others are affected
That should be the case with Medical as well

I can appreciate that, to a degree.
If engineers fail to power the station, you can replace the cell.
If security is shit and fails to secure the disk, you can slip ops as a janitor,
If a virus is released onto the station, you can get protective equipment. If you're wearing a space suit with internals while on the station you won't likely get infected
If there's no miners, you can get a mining conscription kit, and get the ores yourself, while maintaining your original science job.
You can't do surgery on yourself, though you can heal yourself. Wounds can be different in nature to other wounds, in that they rely on other players, and cannot be dealt with, even with sufficient preparation.

[Istoprocent1]

Bruv, have you seen cleanbots or janiborgs? Why would you even play janitor, when you could start as a borg and play janiborg, which can literally clean the floor in a fraction of the time?

[PKPenguin321]

Failure is fine when the person who fails faces the consequences
That isn't the case with medical

If an engineer fails to set up the SM, everyone faces the consequences
If a Cap fails to secure the disk, everyone faces the consequences
If Sec fails to contain an antag, everyone faces the consequences
If Viro is bad at containing a virus, everyone faces the consequences
If Miners are shit and get killed before getting minerals, everyone faces the consequences

This entire game is a web of people doing jobs where if they fail or suck at it, others are affected
That should be the case with Medical as well

I can appreciate that, to a degree.
If engineers fail to power the station, you can replace the cell.
If security is shit and fails to secure the disk, you can slip ops as a janitor,
If a virus is released onto the station, you can get protective equipment. If you're wearing a space suit with internals while on the station you won't likely get infected
If there's no miners, you can get a mining conscription kit, and get the ores yourself, while maintaining your original science job.
You can't do surgery on yourself, though you can heal yourself. Wounds can be different in nature to other wounds, in that they rely on other players, and cannot be dealt with, even with sufficient preparation.

Yes, you can do everything, but if they did their jobs you wouldn't have to. Things happening elsewhere that causes a chain of events that affect you dynamically, like for instance forcing you to go mining even though you're simply a meek scientist, is part of what makes the game a good story generator.

[Flatulent]

does sitting in medbay for 30 minutes of R O L E P L A Y(Alt tabbed and watching porn while you are waiting until something kills you or the doctor finishes their work) make for a good story?
no.

[Sheodir]

does sitting in medbay for 30 minutes of R O L E P L A Y(Alt tabbed and watching porn while you are waiting until something kills you or the doctor finishes their work) make for a good story?
no.

>straight up says he don't roleplay or engage with the game in any way whilst on surgery
>wah wah why am i not having fun

Plus, fun things can happen WHILE you're in surgery. Like getting anesthesized and having a bomb planted on you as a plot to kill the Captain.

[Helios]

>straight up says he don't roleplay or engage with the game in any way whilst on surgery
>wah wah why am i not having fun

Plus, fun things can happen WHILE you're in surgery. Like getting anesthesized and having a bomb planted on you as a plot to kill the Captain.

Do you accept the possibility that a majority of players don't like how medical is currently handled?
I'm not talking a majority of people who currently play medical doctors with the current system, but rather if you poll 80 players on Sybil 41 might say they dislike the way it's handled.

[Sheodir]

Do you accept the possibility that a majority of players don't like how medical is currently handled?
I'm not talking a majority of people who currently play medical doctors with the current system, but rather if you poll 80 players on Sybil 41 might say they dislike the way it's handled.

Both to answer this and your earlier point: there can always be improvements, but this is a better direction. I was here for the self-surgery days and that was less fun, less engaging and made Medical not a job but just pointless number go up games. Any suggestion to improvement that in any way begins with 'we should have better self healing alternatives' is arguing for the trivialization of injury and damage, which straight up makes the game less interesting.

People often will hold things are bad, and they're often right. But they're still better than before.

(I for example hate the majority of Science roles but recognize they're a marked improvement over how they used to be. I also like MOST of the combat changes despite the fact it's gotten me a lot weaker and killed a lot more. What's engaging to your preferences =/= what's good for the game as a whole.)