/tg/Station 13

Assistants get too little, everyone else gets too much. The only time I've ever cared about it was as an assistant wanting to buy a specific jacket from the clothing vendor for 50 credits, or a wrench or something from the YouTool in primary tool storage. Otherwise I've either never needed to buy something, or had so much money the cost didn't matter. Without proper scarcity, and sensible pricing (i.e. based on gameplay utility, not fluff) the money is worthless. I would like it to have leverage. I would like it to feel good to hoard wealth. I'd like people to actually fight over money, outside of when it's left outside the luxury shuttle.

The whole station was designed not to have money, and things that require it are just being tacked on over time. The whole ingame economy is fucked from bottom to top and mostly exists to support cargo (but since stocks were removed that took out like half the utility).

it takes a long time to introduce new systems to the point where they're baked in, specially without a dedicated coder or paid team.

you'll just have to have faith in the long term vision.

Coders getting paid? HahaHaHaHAHA

Botany has to pay for their strange seeds and contraband seeds.

It's not worthless for them at all.

It becomes more worthwhile by the day. I agree though, money matters to no one but assistants, so maybe certain jobs pay could be scaled back?

Shadowflame909 wrote:Botany has to pay for their strange seeds and contraband seeds.

It's not worthless for them at all.

That's true. I remember that being annoying more than anything and thinking they were underpaid though, similar to what I said about Assistants in the OP. I haven't played it since budget cards were removed though and I think salaries were changed to be a percentage of the department's budget rather than a fixed amount so it might've gotten better.

I like the Idea that only heads and security get decent wages. Thus creating an actual paygap. It be nice if there was a sort of "mugging" mechanic, maybe a way to hack someones account (besides the vault draining).

A lot of things also require role participation. I.e. a bartender or cook actually charging for food and drink.

A fun object to put in could be a tip jar, somewhere visually to store credits and has the risk of being stolen etc.

Oranges being like “think long term” when it’s been months with fucking nothing makes me feel more and more he doesn’t take this seriously

You have unrealistic expectations on what an economy system based on hour-long rounds can be without getting in the way of every other aspect of gameplay, which is not a good alternative

But you can start by getting rid of all the excess free stuff that's laying around every map so people have to actually buy the things they need, I'm sure that won't be controversial at all

Metal and Glass are now in a dispenser

You gotta buy it

Tldr: Economy is a dumb idea because it makes you buy things cargos supposed to sell.

peoplearestrange wrote:A fun object to put in could be a tip jar, somewhere visually to store credits and has the risk of being stolen etc.

A cash register or something like that would be cool (I think something to charge people is already in the code) but needless given currency is digital.

peoplearestrange wrote:I like the Idea that only heads and security get decent wages. Thus creating an actual paygap.

It makes perfect sense for roles that contribute more or ask more of the player to be paid more to incentivise people playing them. What I'm saying is that money doesn't feel like it has any leverage. From what I've seen assistants are underpaid, while head of staff and engineering roles are grossly overpaid to the point the money becomes frivolous to them. I know fuck-all about economics but that sounds like inflation to me.

peoplearestrange wrote:maybe a way to hack someones account (besides the vault draining)

This would be good. There should be some way of controlling the flow of the station's budget, from the captain down to the department heads, to each individual employee. And then some means of interacting with each account.

Shadowflame909 wrote:Metal and Glass are now in a dispenser

You gotta buy it

great idea
bonus: miners no longer get a salary, instead they now get paid everytime someone uses or prints ore

imo part of the problem is finding ways to make money relevant that arent just taking shit away

the only time money ever mattered to me was playing botanist and having to wait for the funds for my strange seeds and itd suck to go back to that arbitrary wait

You're worthless, and NT knows. They pay in kind.

I don't think NT values any of its employees, or any of its "top secret" research stations, judging by the shocking death tolls and destruction rates. I like to think NT has so much money that the stations themselves are the experiments, the employees the subjects and that the antagonistic organisations are owned by or bankrolled by NT.

I think if you want people to actively use money, you'd have to give every department a vending machine that they can restock easily at roundstart. Building a custom vending machine will likely take up too much time out of a round to have time to fill it when it might not even be used.

We have a culture of people just helping others for the hell of it. Throwing up vendors for departments doesn't work because no one will bother to stock them when the money is useless, and the money is useless because no one bothers to charge for anything. It's a circle you can't break just by giving players more ways to charge for things.

Remove all the free medkits from the station, including in medbay. Put medical supplies in public nanomed machines for a non-trivial price. Suddenly you have a reason to want money, as well as a reason to go to medbay for healing as they are the only ones who will be regularly making medicine.

Dr_bee wrote:Remove all the free medkits from the station, including in medbay. Put medical supplies in public nanomed machines for a non-trivial price. Suddenly you have a reason to want money, as well as a reason to go to medbay for healing as they are the only ones who will be regularly making medicine.

I'm not sure I necessarily agree with the specific idea, but this is what I mean by money having leverage. People need health. If the only sources of health are other people doing their jobs (i.e. medbay, hydroponics, bartender etc.) or money, money suddenly becomes a lot more valuable. Which means it can then be used by players to incentivise each other to do what they want. Which should be a natural consequence of a money system where money is scarce enough and can be exchanged for things valuable enough (I mean gameplay value, not roleplay "value").

Rounds aren't long enough for non persistent money to matter. Money isnt balanced enough to even consider persistence. If things are readily available for money, why would I trade with you? Why would I trade something I might need to you for money that I dont need?

money is worthless by design you fool

Economy is totally broken after the salary changes, tiders can buy insuls and tools at roundstart, botanists have like 1000 credits by 35 min.

Nerf salaries to the previous levels.

the dept ratio payout?

okay at this point can we just remove the dept budgets please?

Kryson wrote:Economy is totally broken after the salary changes, tiders can buy insuls and tools at roundstart, botanists have like 1000 credits by 35 min.

Nerf salaries to the previous levels.

I agree with this post
no matter what job I play, after the first payout I'm rolling in cash
I would love to see money as something scarce so I can have exchanges as something meaningful

Speaking of, why did you think tying individual paychecks to the budget was a good idea when it was widely agreed upon that budgets were out of control

And one general piece of advice I've been meaning to share: stop designing yourselves into holes and clinging to the hope someone will pick up the slack one day. A static value is easy to balance, calculations based on arbitrary values and highly volatile situations are not. Not everything needs to be a deep simulation especially when nobody is willing to put in the proper effort to properly make it as such.

Mickyan wrote:Speaking of, why did you think tying individual paychecks to the budget was a good idea when it was widely agreed upon that budgets were out of control

And one general piece of advice I've been meaning to share: stop designing yourselves into holes and clinging to the hope someone will pick up the slack one day. A static value is easy to balance, calculations based on arbitrary values and highly volatile situations are not. Not everything needs to be a deep simulation especially when nobody is willing to put in the proper effort to properly make it as such.

good post, but I felt kind of bad for removing the dept budget cards, so I made it pay out into salaries instead

Payout from budgets isnt a terrible idea, but it is a terrible idea on its own without first balancing the budgets. You guys realize science gets 50k on the budget just for doing a research bomb? Medbay gets loads of money for doing nothing in the case of extended rounds? The overall loser is surprisingly cargo, who not only have to do actual work to gain budget money but also has to use their wage base to buy shit for the station. The latter is why I argued against continuing to use cargo funds for shuttle purchase back when economy was added.

Make budgets not generate stupid amounts of money all the time and instead actually gain money depending on how well the department is running. Right now most are running on some passive stat or fixed rate. Then budget paying out wages might be fine.

We are regardless going to have trouble balancing shit around minimal wages when a fucking crate is worth 500 credits. Its time we either up the general cost and wages to be on cargo-like levels, or take a close look at cargo/mineral credits.

This is exactly what I'm talking about

You're never going to properly quantify the performance of most departments in code, the gameplay of SS13 is too open ended to allow it. This addition is pointless. You're trying to add complexity to a feature that doesn't benefit from it in any way and only makes balancing it a nightmare


Keep payouts static and leave the money making business to cargo, suddently you can actually balance personal payouts around cargo's prices. Ex: based on their paycheck, a medical doctor will be able to afford a medical crate X minutes into the round.

You already have the perfect system for inter-departmental cooperation with cargo bounties. If you're looking for more opportunities for making money, that's what should be expanded.

If I dont need something from cargo, I do not directly benefit from supplying cargo with bounties. I have no motivation to do so, other than to be nice to whoever asked.
On the other hand, cargo is able to pay out of their budget for bringing crates. The value of a crate is so high it completely bypasses any cost we add to things.

I don't think I understand your point skog

Im not sure I do either. Let me Grug it up.

Economy unbalanced. Vending machine costs low, cargo rewards and costs high. Money same type, systems intermix.

Money is an RP tool and it's fine as it is

I agree with zxaber. In general it’s just expected that science will do upgrades and research, medbay will heal people, and engineering will fix stuff. If you try to charge for stuff like that you’re gonna get shoved out of the way and get your job done by someone else. Such is life in a positive sum game.

If people didn’t get free stuff from their own vendors they’d be a lot more inclined to charge. There’s other implications of course, but they’d still be more likely to charge.

my take is economy doesn't need to exist.

Cargo is for supplies, you go to cargo when you want something.

If people end up buying supplies literally everywhere else. Then you've just replaced cargo.

Economy steps on cargo's toes or it gives them too much starting money. It should go away.

Grazyn wrote:Money is an RP tool and it's fine as it is

You could say that back when it had no actual uses, but not now that the economy system has been introduced.