[PR] Syndicate Operative Changes

[paprika]

https://github.com/NTStation/NTstation13/pull/487

This PR is designed to be the final change that brings syndies into having their own gear. The shotguns will eventually replace the e-guns on the syndicate shuttle. Syndicates will no longer have to assault the armory so that they can recharge their stuns, simply spend their TC for more magazines, as it should be.

Features:

CB-47 Space AK
Telecrystals: 12
Semi-automatic medium-to-long range high-caliber rifle designed for reliable and robust use in space combat.
Ammo Types: 7.62x39 (40 brute) & Incendiary (15 brute with fire DoT)
Ammo Count: 30 (normal) & 20 (incendiary)
Magazine TC pricing: 4 (normal) & 5 (incendiary)
Weight class: Heavy




S-12p Automatic Shotgun
Telecrystals: 10
Semi-automatic close-to-medium range shotgun designed for a supporting role in combat operations.
Ammo Types: 12g stun (default), 12g buckshot, 12g incendiary
Ammo Count: 8
Magazine TC pricing: 3
Weight class: Heavy






Silencer Changes
Silencers are now completely universal for all small calibers. Currently, the only weapons that includes are the Stechkin pistol and the C-20r SMG.



Planned Features / Unfinished Shit
- Final

Changelog

4/25: Initial release
4/26: Silencer code redux
4/26: Default ammo type on shotgun changed to stun slugs
4/27: In hands, back sprites, and other minor tweaks.
4/27: Final build

Credits

Me: Coding and sprite tweaks
Nienhaus: Weapon sprites
Pandarsenic: Magazine sprites
Rob Richards: Silencer code redux

[NikNakFlak]

I don't like the sprites at all. Both the sprites for the AUTOMATIC SHOTGUN and the HIGH CALIBER RIFLE seem smaller than the SUB MACHINE GUN. They are just smaller in general and don't match the other gun style of preexisting guns when they should be larger and not as smooshed. Kaze was doing something relating to this once, but he dropped off the planet so who cares. Also: Rocket Launchers, when? Also the magazines for the Shotgun don't look like magazines. Also, what kind of high caliber rifle shoots incendiary rounds? The Silencers are a good idea though. I generally dislike everything about this.

EDIT: Also if these DO get added. Make sure to make them deconstruct-able in the destructive analyzer.

[paprika]

The problem is not that the rifles are small, it's that the c20r is large. They are both large as possible for 32x32, the scaling in ss13 has always been abysmal, and the ion rifle, xray laser, etc are all proof of this. Something that can't be changed. As far as the incendiary ammo question goes: look at the mech's hades carbine. Same technology applied to the 7.62 here.

>Silencers are a good idea
>But I dislike everything about this

Niknak pls.

Edit:
Here's a full size pulse rifle and a so called "SMG"


SMGs are not defined by their size. They are defined by their barrel length and caliber. Sorry.



You know you want nuke op rounds to look like this.

[NikNakFlak]

Valid points. However, if all the guns in SS13 are "Big" why not make the new guns big too for consistency sake? Valid point on the incendiary machine guns too. I still dislike the sprites in general but I would live with it. That picture you posted. To the right of the guy with the swat helmet, is that a magazine? good god.

[paprika]

Yeah the magazines are hueg but making curved magazines is hard in 32x32, especially when they fit the style I was going for. Pandar made em.

Also, believe me when I say these new guns are as 'big' as possible. They're about the same size as the c20r, fit the same color/shading scheme, and function similarly.



If they were any larger they'd look silly.

[Nienhaus]

The Ak I sprited is 32 long so I did make it as big as I could. Also I don't recall spriting the S-12p, pretty sure that was you.

[paprika]

It's just an edit of the AK, intentionally so.

[NikNakFlak]

Looks good then, I guess my only beef is magazines bigger than their guns!

[lumipharon]

Like I said in the first thread, I think they're too expensive, when compared to the c-20r and SAW.
C-20r is 8 points, does 20 brute and knocks down. It's ammo is 1tc and 20 rounds per reload.
SAW is 20(I think?) tc, does 60 brute(more than double that of the AK), and I can't remember how much it's reloads cost, but I'm pretty certain it's no more then that of the AK, and it's got 50 rounds.

On top of this, they're both bulky weapons, meaning you can only store it on your back (again, I think they should be storeable on your suit slot), meaning you either have to hold your bag/not use one, and when using a jetpack (such as when gravity is down) you have no where to store it at all.

I do like the concept,(replacing e-guns with the shotties especially) but I just think they're a bit overpriced compared to the competition right now.

[imblyings]

chest rigs as a suit storage slot storage/exosuit storage item when

[Steelpoint]

Does the CB-47 rounds knock down a target on hit?

Cause if not then why should I buy it when I can by a SMG that stuns a target on hit. I would take a gun that can stun and hurt over a gun that can hurt more any day of the week.

In addition, it would cost me about 25 telecrystals to get a CB-47 and two magazines, whereas it would cost around 10 telecrystals to get a SMG and two magazines. That is a massive difference in cost where the only seemingly good benefit of getting the CB-47 is extra ammo and a very small damage boost.

[paprika]

The l6 was nerfed to do 25 brute and the AK uses the same ammo as the L6, I specifically made the AK magazines a non-snowflake extension of l6 ammo to make it clear how face ruining the AK is.

I will lower the price of the AK and shotgun a bit but when you have a team of 5 nuke ops gunning you down with 25 brute to the face do not complain to me.

Also, I plan on editing the e-guns locker to be a loadout of:

3 C-20rs
2 Stun shotguns

..So that syndies will have their starter c20rs again and also have a decent stun option from the get go without any TCs.

[imblyings]

>uses same ammo
>7.62x51 same as 7.62x39

[paprika]

>implying the stechkin shoots 10mm auto irl

I'm going to seperate the ammo so /k/ doesn't kill me anyway.

MUH BALANCE

Edit:

I have reduced the price of the AK to 12tc and the shotgun to 10.
The AK now deals 40 brute which is a 3 shot crit.
The AK magazines are 4tc each with the incendiary being 5.
The shotgun magazines are 3tc each.
The default weapons for 20 players (5 nuke ops) will be three C-20r SMGs, and two S-12p shotguns (default with stun rounds).

This will hopefully move nuke ops back towards relying less on stuns and more on simply mowing people down.

Also, this project is currently at a standstill until someone figures out how to work /vg/'s dmi merger because our inhand sprite files have reached the icon state limit and we can't add any more. If you can into python, PM me on irc.

[lumipharon]

Don't put C-20r's as free weapons for ops. That's far to strong if TC amounts dont change from what they are currently, which I wouldnt want to happen since customisation > preset equipment.

And when was the SAW nerfed, or is that part of your proposed change, since the whole gimmick of the SAW was to replace stuns with overwhelming damage - it's massive price ain't worth it either if it only does 25 damage now.

Edit: Ok, so the L6 has been nerfed for a bit apparantly. When was this changed, and by whom? It's a terrible choice compared to the c-20r, now I would like to see combat move awawy from stuns, but the fact of the matter is, combat right now, is all about stuns. Before, the SAW was an expenive investment, but could crit people in 2 shots and had a large capacity. Now it's a joke, what's the point in high capacity if you shoot a sec officer 3 times and he tases you once and kills you? I am literally mad, and I don't even use the L6.

Edit2: Ok pap, so the A762 magazine fire normal bullets (60 damage) instead of A762 bullets, which are 25 damage. Somewhat confusing but eh.

[AseaHeru]

I like the idea of this. Can we brace or put flashlights on them now too?

[paprika]

Lum, the L6 was never nerfed to do 25 damage, a762 code in the bullets file is leftover/unused/bugged code that should never have been there and messed me up when I was making this.

The l6 still shoots regular bullets, the same as the revolver, at 60 brute.
Upon realizing this, I made the AK shoot 40 brute versions, so instead of 2 shots to crit, it's 3, but 2 shots will put you at 80 brute which is near-crit anyway.

In any case, my update does not fuck with the l6 at all, and I don't plan to.

Don't put C-20r's as free weapons for ops. That's far to strong if TC amounts dont change from what they are currently, which I wouldnt want to happen since customisation > preset equipment.

The free e-guns are already leagues above the C-20rs. It's a longer stun than the C-20rs bullets, and if you were around long enough you'd know that the e-guns are actually an upgrade from the C-20rs, since the SMGs' stun was nerfed. Replacing the e-guns with shotguns and C-20rs will balance so that the stuns from e-guns are not replaced entirely but Ops will have to rely on reserve ammo rather than recharging their guns, which is how it should be.

[lumipharon]

>If I was around long enough
What, why are you calling me a newfag just because I have some constructive criticism for your change? I know that C-20r's have a shorter stun druation, and I know that ops used to have C-20r's as default weapons.The shorter stuns don't matter becuase you keep shooting them (presumably) if you indeed to kill them, so chances are they stay down. And old ops had so little variety in what they could do. Sure newops isn't perfectly balanced, borgs are far too cheap, and gygax's are all but impossible to stop if they hit the armory; but hey, over all newops is more interesting because it's not identical setups everytime.

Do you genuinely think the e-gun is better? And that by giving ops c-20r's instead of e-guns you're NERFING them somehow?

Edit: Now I'm just confused, you point out the popularity of the e-guns in ooc as to why you're replacing them (implying they're better, it seems), then when I say that free c20-r's will make ops stronger you simply say 'so, what's your point?'
Which is it? Because I'm pretty sure most people would think the C-20r is a lot better, same with the shotgun, but very few people would think ops need a straight up buff like this.

[AseaHeru]

I think Eguns beat the C-20r cold, and it dosent really make sense to me for nukeopps to have eguns.
But thats just me. Feel free to shit on this post, or rather please dont. It was jsut cleaned.

[imblyings]

>combat situation
>egun
>stunned someone
>laser
>egun expended
>egun out of action
>c20r
>stunned and damaged
>continue firing until crit
>mag not expended/time to reload
>c20r back in action

if disturbed

>they get up from egun stun unharmed
>they get up from c20r stun harmed

you can also kill two people with the c20r as opposed to 1 with the egun but eguns are better for non-lethal situations where you want to cuff people instead of kill them. For nuke ops though, c20rs are indeed a better option.

eguns were good for nuke ops if every other nuke op forgot to take them and you filled up a bag with them and then spammed stun shots off your screen to hit people but that's back then.

[paprika]

e-guns being replaced isn't a black and white WHICH IS BETTER it's much more about the strategy involved with nuke ops. Especially how they're meant to be more reload rather than recharge. Yes, c20r is worse in 1v1 combat situations, but in the long run it's better, as the post above me pointed out. The extra weapons in the uplink can be bought for fun factor or completely ignored but for the most part the standard equipment should either be replaced with syndie weapons or additional TCs for nuke ops. I'm fine with either, but I designed the stun shotguns to be coupled with the smgs for a decent replacement and allowed a bit more choice rather than 'take egun, buy borgs, run over security ez' because you can recharge the e-guns making them essentially unlimited ammo but the c-20r is where you need to factor in ammo.

[Pandarsenic]

>E-gun
>Walk up
>Force-feed cyanide pill
>ded

[Steelpoint]

>E-gun
>Walk up
>Force-feed cyanide pill
>ded

>Realise they are wearing a mask
>Get disarmed
>ded

Ultimately though the C20r is superior to the Egun in all but two respects, the Egun can stun someone longer and without harming them.

I'm comparing the new CB-47 akin to how most weapons in Counter Strike are seen, everything outside the AK/M4/AWP is fluff as in this case the C20r will reign supreme. I like the changes being made to the other weapons balance wise but the one hit stun will always be the most popular weapon choice.

If its a choice between a three shot kill weapon, or 5 shot kill but 1 shot stun weapon, it's a clear choice for most people.

[miggles]

>c20r
>worse than an egun
paprika you literally have no idea what youre talking about
Short stun means nothing. It's a gun that fires bullets. Bullets are meant to kill people, and that's what the c20r is for. The c20r can put people in crit in 5 shots, and it gets 20 per mag, plus 1 in the chamber. You can crit 5 undamaged people with one mag. The e-gun can STUN 10 people.. but that means nothing if you don't have something good to kill them with as well. The e-gun can crit 2 undamaged people if you manage to hit them with all the lasers without missing.
As a nuke op your priority isn't really to keep people alive. The c20r is very good at making sure people are not kept alive, due to its dual function as a stun+murder weapon, that doesn't require flipping a fire selector to use.

[Hornygranny]

Projectile weapons that don't stun are pretty meh, the C20r is not one of those. Making someone drop their gun every time they get hit is brutal.

[miggles]

non-energy stuns should probably not make people drop their shit

[paprika]

impossible, if you mean in the immobilize/slowdown alien stun way, in which case possibly

paprika you literally have no idea what youre talking about

It's funny but you're almost directly paraphrasing my reasons for switching the syndies to c-20rs

Whether or not the c-20r or e-gun is more robust is completely dependent on playstyle but the stun and scoot method preferred by traitors and changelings with multiple people against them is not the playstyle we want syndicates using by default, although it is available (stun shotguns) if they are willing to spend TC on it. It also has to do with immersion but I don't think anyone even cares about that besides me.

Also you'd be hard pressed to find people who wouldn't rather have c-20rs by default since they were nerfed AND replaced with the new syndicate system. Stechkins are now an undercover traitor weapon and there's no reason for nuke ops to have them by default anymore besides shitty cheap ass backup weapons they get for free in case they run out of ammo.

[lumipharon]

there's no reason for nuke ops to have them by default anymore besides shitty cheap ass backup weapons they get for free in case they run out of ammo.

But that's like, the reason they have them?

And if everyone has agreed that c-20r's are better then e-guns, and are also better lorewise as default weapons, it still comes down to the main point. Having ops start with c20r/semi autoshotguns is somewhat OP if their TC count is not altered, and that altering their TC count shoes horns them (or atleast makes it harder/less worth while) into a specific loadout/playstyle.

[Steelpoint]

Why not try and model the weapon choice via the Counter Strike model? All the Ops spawn with the default Sketchin Pistol and have enough TC's to buy a single weapon (or more depending on bonus TC's) of choice?

On another thread it is being toyed with to add addition alternate Nuke Ops weapons with new skins as sidegrades to the base guns (Quicker reloads and more ammo for no or very little knockdown time) that cost the same, giving more options.

Through this method each Op player has free will to select whatever kind of weapon and load out they desire without being forced into one specific role

[paprika]

Yeah after all this debate the best option I think is simply adding a few more TCs to nuke ops and removing the e-guns entirely, like Pete was going to do. 15 would have a lot of wiggle room in the way of weapons and gear, and without e-guns I think an extra 5 tc to everyone by default (TCs scale based on population up from 10 per Op with 5 Ops) would make things more loose but also keep nuke ops robust like they were with the e-guns.

[lumipharon]

Sounds like a good idea, but I think that syndie borgs/mechs (mainly borgs) need a price adjustment and/or a limit on how many you can buy.

[Steelpoint]

I would argue that at maximum you can only get two Syndi Borgs though I would argue only one. Think about it, a single Syndi Borg increases your man power by 20%, you gain a unstunable (By human standards) ally that can unbolt doors and has practically infinite power. For just 25 tc's.

Mech's can be fine as is since they are a far more hefty investment, just get rid of the bloody annoying insta stun rapid fire machine guns mech's keep getting.

15 TC's would be enough for a Operative to afford a single gun and possibly a magazine or two, they would need to draw some more TC's for additional ammo and equipment however, which is fine. Thought they would not be able to afford a L6 from the get go which is, again, fine as a L6 is a very risky setup.

[paprika]

When I eventually get back to re-making the PR and changes and redoing the guns and stuff I will most likely tweak a bunch of prices considering I'm going to remove the e-guns entirely and raise the amount of TCs nuke ops have. Since they'll only have a stechkin to start off with, they might not jump to buy a borg or two so quickly since they'll be pathetic as fuck combat-wise if they blow their TCs on a borg.

[AseaHeru]

It would be interesting if there where limits on what they can buy, like only being able to buy one borg or one mech.

[paprika]

For the sake of balance, probably in the future, yeah. Borgs/mechs depend on the competence of the user but those who observe with nuke op toggled on at roundstart are usually pretty good or ready for it.

[Incomptinence]

Are the shotguns replacing the eguns the normal large type or will they fit in backpacks? Would hate for syndicate agents to have severe storage problems again.

[imblyings]

hispeed shotgun scabbards when

[miggles]

when are we going to have the murasama
>shoot gun on sheath
>iaido the fuck out of some assistant

[paprika]

Are the shotguns replacing the eguns the normal large type or will they fit in backpacks? Would hate for syndicate agents to have severe storage problems again.

They'll sling on your back and also fit in the suit storage slot of nuke op hardsuit, but not normal armor. For the sake of balance, since they're much better than e-guns.

[Incomptinence]

Sounds reasonable even if I don't agree shotguns are better than an E-Guns.

[paprika]

When you run out of an egun you're fucked until you recharge.

With the shotgun, you just load in a new, fairly inexpensive magazine. You decide. The limited ammo is a counter balance to the potentially unlimited ammo of e-guns but it works a lot better in the favor of nuke ops.