/tg/Station 13

The firefighter APLU essentially has no reason to exist given you can put fire extinguishers on faster and cheaper mechs. It has higher temperature resistance to fire, but this is irrelevant because

1) It will never actually be in the middle of a fire, only at the perimeter
2) Even the mechs with low temperature resistance still basically can't die to fire

We have a ripley that requires more plasteel than robotics spawns with and its only upside is a non-factor. What needs to happen to make Firefighter APLUs relevant?

Currently it's bad at fighting fires because of two things - it's slow, which prevents it from getting to fires in any reasonable amount of time, and it doesn't receive special knowledge of fires, which adds to the delay as the pilot has to (sometimes repeatedly) ask the crew where the fire is.

Give the Firefighter access to fire alarm viewing such as the silicons have. and give it a special mode which is identical to the Gygax' sprint, except it's only unlocked when there is an active fire alarm on the station. This way the Firefighter can quickly identify the location of fires and get to them rapidly, without it being gamed as an ability to just run in superspeed everywhere.

Full firefighter suit, helmet, and internals already makes you immune to basically everything except being directly in a burn mix chamber.
Its more that the mechanics of heat and fire need to be changed slightly, theres no point in putting out the fire if the residual heat is just going to re-ignite the air. I've seen people throw welders into a small plasma leak because its easier to just burn it out of the air and rip up the tiles than it is to filter plasma out.

Violaceus wrote:

LNGLY wrote:and give it a special mode which is identical to the Gygax' sprint, except it's only unlocked when there is an active fire alarm on the station. This way the Firefighter can quickly identify the location of fires and get to them rapidly, without it being gamed as an ability to just run in superspeed everywhere.

If there is no fire to boost your mech you.can always make one by yourself.

The suggestion doesn't even require a fire. Just a hacked alarm.

Fires will usually burn themselves out so fast that there's little point in even fighting them. Station wrecking plasma fires are pretty rare and if you're in one with a Firefighter you probably can't do much to help anyway.

Fire fighter mechs need a vacuum tool that removes burning plasma from the air. They should also have gigantic fucking 50 brute damage axe for breaking walls and creating lulz

deathhoof wrote:Fire fighter mechs need a vacuum tool that removes burning plasma from the air. They should also have gigantic fucking 50 brute damage axe for breaking walls and creating lulz

The former would be pretty damn awesome.

firesuits are going to be nerfed btw, they will only reduce fire damage (unless you're wearing an ADVANCED firesuit that is available in atmos). (a person without a firesuit will be dead by the time one with one hits crit)

Miauw wrote:firesuits are going to be nerfed btw, they will only reduce fire damage (unless you're wearing an ADVANCED firesuit that is available in atmos). (a person without a firesuit will be dead by the time one with one hits crit)

That sounds really terrible.

Miauw wrote:firesuits are going to be nerfed btw, they will only reduce fire damage (unless you're wearing an ADVANCED firesuit that is available in atmos). (a person without a firesuit will be dead by the time one with one hits crit)

WHY
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WHAT POSSIBLE REASON DO YOU HAVE????

DO YOU REMEMBER HOW TERRIBLE IT WAS WHEN ERRO BUFFED FIRE TO THE STUPIDLY HUGE LEVELS IT WAS!?!?!?

Miauw wrote:firesuits are going to be nerfed btw, they will only reduce fire damage (unless you're wearing an ADVANCED firesuit that is available in atmos). (a person without a firesuit will be dead by the time one with one hits crit)

What possible reason would there be for nerfing firesuits?

ExplosiveCrate wrote:

Miauw wrote:firesuits are going to be nerfed btw, they will only reduce fire damage (unless you're wearing an ADVANCED firesuit that is available in atmos). (a person without a firesuit will be dead by the time one with one hits crit)

What possible reason would there be for nerfing firesuits?

There's a few reasons.

1) Complete immunity to fire in one easy package kind of trivializes fire as a mechanic. It's also stupid to just have many people being able to literally hit "sleep" in a roaring inferno and be just fine with that, because they'll never be injured. Immunity to hot air is another thing (An invisible area of damage that sticks around for seven centuries oh wow how fun), however, and the suits will retain that. Keep in mind that the way the change is going to work is that you will simply gain very small amounts of temperature while you are directly on fire with a standard firesuit, you won't even start taking damage until your body temperature reaches the treshhold, so being on fire for small amounts of time is not an issue, but staying on fire for very long periods is. Assuming you were at normal body temperature, it will take 27 seconds of being on fire (Not standing in an area with hot air, being directly on fire) while wearing a standard firesuit before you even take any amount of damage.

2) Atmos techs are getting an improvement to the water backpack that is very, very robust against fires and the resulting hot air, as well as an exclusive firesuit for them so that they are the undisputed people to deal with temperature issues.

Worst case scenario, if fire just ends up overpowered as shit with 1, we change the numbers, if that doesn't get it where we like it, we just axe it and keep 2 in.

Ergo tackling a problem that doesn't exist good job ergo

paprika wrote:Ergo tackling a problem that doesn't exist good job ergo

lol

Ignoring the fact that there is a extremely limited supply of fire suits on station, and half of those suits are locked away in maintenance and the other half inside other departments that have a use for them.

While I appreciate the other changes you've made ergo, I think what you've proposed is a solution to a problem that does not exist. The vast majority of people who are caught in a fire do not have a fire suit, and considering you can't put it inside your backpack you can't take one around easily. You have to take some effort to acquire the already limited item.

Steelpoint wrote:Ignoring the fact that there is a extremely limited supply of fire suits on station, and half of those suits are locked away in maintenance and the other half inside other departments that have a use for them.

While I appreciate the other changes you've made ergo, I think what you've proposed is a solution to a problem that does not exist. The vast majority of people who are caught in a fire do not have a fire suit, and considering you can't put it inside your backpack you can't take one around easily. You have to take some effort to acquire the already limited item.

To be honest, to me it seems like it will make firefighting a little more involved, you have to be careful to actually stay out of the fire and heal up if you can't extinguish yourself in time. I don't think it will really be a massive change.

Miauw wrote:

Steelpoint wrote:Ignoring the fact that there is a extremely limited supply of fire suits on station, and half of those suits are locked away in maintenance and the other half inside other departments that have a use for them.

While I appreciate the other changes you've made ergo, I think what you've proposed is a solution to a problem that does not exist. The vast majority of people who are caught in a fire do not have a fire suit, and considering you can't put it inside your backpack you can't take one around easily. You have to take some effort to acquire the already limited item.

To be honest, to me it seems like it will make firefighting a little more involved, you have to be careful to actually stay out of the fire and heal up if you can't extinguish yourself in time. I don't think it will really be a massive change.

It will come down to how long you can survive (Wasn't it around 5 minutes?) and how effective the new atmo firefighting tools are. Fire Extinguishers are very ineffective against any plasma based fires unless you have 10 Drones using it at the same time, hence why most good firefighting involved finding the source of the fire and removing it.

Complete immunity to fire in one easy package kind of trivializes fire as a mechanic. It's also stupid to just have many people being able to literally hit "sleep" in a roaring inferno and be just fine with that, because they'll never be injured. Immunity to hot air is another thing (An invisible area of damage that sticks around for seven centuries oh wow how fun), however, and the suits will retain that. Keep in mind that the way the change is going to work is that you will simply gain very small amounts of temperature while you are directly on fire with a standard firesuit, you won't even start taking damage until your body temperature reaches the treshhold, so being on fire for small amounts of time is not an issue, but staying on fire for very long periods is. Assuming you were at normal body temperature, it will take 27 seconds of being on fire (Not standing in an area with hot air, being directly on fire) while wearing a standard firesuit before you even take any amount of damage.

I don't see why people are crying nerf, I seriously doubt this particular change will have any impact ingame. The only people who are ever on fire for 27+ seconds are people who intentionally lit themselves on fire while wearing a firesuit to look cool. The only reason you'd have to stay in a fire that long would be to reach the atmos alarm of the area on fire to activate panic syphon, and that's atmos tech's job.

Miauw wrote:

paprika wrote:Ergo tackling a problem that doesn't exist good job ergo

lol

That said, the only suits that were functionally "immune" to fire over long periods are the atmos suit and the CE suit (I think). You would still burn to death wearing a non-rig firesuit in fairly short order without some means of mitigating the fire in your immediate area. This is a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.

Ergovisavi wrote:as well as an exclusive firesuit for them so that they are the undisputed people to deal with temperature issues.

So you mean the Atmos hardsuit that already exist? Or are you getting rid of that too?

Saegrimr wrote:So you mean the Atmos hardsuit that already exist? Or are you getting rid of that too?

No, I am leaving the Atmos hardsuit where it is. I might not agree with its inclusion, but it's already there. It, and the CE suit are keeping its fire immunity. There will be two secure closets for atmos personell that will contain all the new gear.

cedarbridge wrote:That said, the only suits that were functionally "immune" to fire over long periods are the atmos suit and the CE suit (I think). You would still burn to death wearing a non-rig firesuit in fairly short order without some means of mitigating the fire in your immediate area. This is a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.

Incorrect, Fire Suits, the CE hardsuit, the Atmos Hardsuit, and the Wizard hardsuit on live are all 100% immune to fire and hot air (Technically not immune to hot air, but you're never realistically ever going to get near hot air that is over 30k), assuming that you're wearing both parts and have your internals on.

Steelpoint wrote:It will come down to how long you can survive (Wasn't it around 5 minutes?) and how effective the new atmo firefighting tools are. Fire Extinguishers are very ineffective against any plasma based fires unless you have 10 Drones using it at the same time, hence why most good firefighting involved finding the source of the fire and removing it.

Yes, extinguishers are laughably ineffective against plasma fires due to the fact that while they do cool down air, they only do so if there's a hotspot in the tile, and only by cutting the temperature in half OR by 2000 degrees, whichever is smaller. Given that temperatures can hit 10k in a tile before a hull breach, and that plasma can reignite itself at fairly low temperatures, they're mostly useless. They also can miss rows, have short range, etc, you're better off ignoring the problem instead of trying to fight it in most cases since a hull breach will cool the area down. This is why I'm making the Atmos water backpack much, much more robust at fighting fires than current extinguishers.

Ergovisavi wrote:Incorrect, Fire Suits, the CE hardsuit, the Atmos Hardsuit, and the Wizard hardsuit on live are all 100% immune to fire and hot air (Technically not immune to hot air, but you're never realistically ever going to get near hot air that is over 30k), assuming that you're wearing both parts and have your internals on.

This is the bit that needs to be verified. I'm 100% sure I've died in fires while fully kitted in a fire suit with internals on and I've watched nerds with flame throwers roast themselves while wearing the same getup with internals on.

A couple of years back hotspots used to always damage through fire suits, because Giacom made them that way.

If it was recent then they probably weren't wearing helmets.


Anyway, firesuit protection should be reduced back down to 10k. No idea why Erro increased it by 300% when he did his body temp change.

Firesuit, fire helmet, and internals and you're immune to fire. I've walked around in enough plasma fires to know.

Leave the fire suits alone god damn it,... Unless they are all out outside of maint and other areas, where people are openly abusing the fuck out of them, nerfing them is already like beating a dead horse here... I am getting sick of the MUH REALISMS here....... please just stop already.

im not very well acquainted with atmos. if you have a plasma canister in the middle of some room and someone starts a huge fire, what is currently the most efficient way to put it out?

miggles wrote:what is currently the most efficient way to put it out?

Close the can if someone is around that wont burn to death, then let it burn a hole in the hull and let space vent it.

If the fire hasn't been going for very long you CAN extinguisher it, but theres a point where the air will be hot enough that shit will just re-ignite itself if theres even a trace of plasma left.

Saegrimr wrote:

miggles wrote:what is currently the most efficient way to put it out?

Close the can if someone is around that wont burn to death, then let it burn a hole in the hull and let space vent it.

If the fire hasn't been going for very long you CAN extinguisher it, but theres a point where the air will be hot enough that shit will just re-ignite itself if theres even a trace of plasma left.

Chilled air has been tried in a lot of cases but it can have unwanted collateral in some cases. As is the case with all mass gas releases. (heh)

and what if the fire has been going on a long time and the canister is already busted open and not a problem anymore?

miggles wrote:and what if the fire has been going on a long time and the canister is already busted open and not a problem anymore?

AI can panic siphon, or just let that shit burn untill it breaches the hull and vents.
By that time any attempts to put it out manually would more likely spread it.

If you want to really be an asshole, an N2O flood would choke it out fairly fast, but now you have an N2O flood in a high-heat area which would likely cause more death than it saves.

Ironically plasma apparently has the highest heat capacity, which means super chilled plasma is the best for cooling rooms.
Of course if it doesn't cool past the flash point you've literally just added more fuel to the fire

A can of space-cooled CO2 might work, now that I think about it.
Not like the room isn't going to be full of superhot CO2 anyway, so you're not making it that much worse by throwing more CO2 at it.

Saegrimr wrote:If you want to really be an asshole, an N2O flood would choke it out fairly fast, but now you have an N2O flood in a high-heat area which would likely cause more death than it saves.

Only if people are dumb enough not to wear internals, but those would die in a fire anyway.

Having fire extinguishers for atmos that could be filled with super cooled gases (or any gases for that matter) would actually be excellent and also make sense.

cedarbridge wrote:

Miauw wrote:

paprika wrote:Ergo tackling a problem that doesn't exist good job ergo

lol

That said, the only suits that were functionally "immune" to fire over long periods are the atmos suit and the CE suit (I think). You would still burn to death wearing a non-rig firesuit in fairly short order without some means of mitigating the fire in your immediate area. This is a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.

I was just laughing at the fact that many people would say the same about paprka.

It's easier to re-air a room than to cool the air inside, so usually I just panic syphon the room. Or better yet, open holes to space.

Btw, nerfing firesuits is dumb.

Surviving a blazing inferno is the entire point of them existing, if theres anything that should survive a fire worst out of fire suits or atmos rigs its the atmos rigs.