/tg/Station 13

Title/subject:
[DaxYeen] Chickenboy10 - Note for brain damage surgery

Post Content:
Byond account and character name: Chickenboy10, Janel Sagan
Banning admin: DaxYeen
Ban type (What are you banned from?): Note
Ban reason and length: Warned about giving people brain damage with surgery for stealing a taser as a warden.
Time ban was placed (including time zone): 2018-06-25 20:19
Server you were playing when banned (Sybil or Bagil): Bagil
Your side of the story: I gave brain damage surgery to a MD for taking a taser of an officer who was attempting to arrest a dangerous hulk, said hulk was both vandalising medbay and attacking other crewmen. I know that while space law isn't official policy, I've used it as a guideline to determine the type and length on punishments, and this was a clear case of the MD aiding and abetting a dangerous hulk. So I applied the same punishment onto the MD and the hulk.

Why you think you should be unbanned: Its frustrating as hell when a random crewman pushes you over, takes your taser and stops you from arresting a perp who you are now incapable of taking down, in this case it wasn't so bad because the hulk was being subdued by a number of people but I still felt that a aiding and abetting charge was reasonable for both the stealing of a taser and the interference of an arrest. Once the surgery was done the MD was immediately released, so he wasn't being kept in the brig for a ridiculously long time.

not sure what logs I should provide so I got the disarm:
[2018-06-25 19:32:22.719] ATTACK: Canbean The Original(fireflame059) disarmed Abby Stralinger(charmisokay) with removing the hybrid taser (NEWHP: 100) (170,89,2)

Link to Round ID: https://atlantaned.space/statbus/round.php?round=90036

Relevant section of the rules, under Escalation:

Exceptions: Security is expected not to retaliate with random abuse or violence unless the person in question is otherwise eligible for execution. You can't kill or maim security for trying to arrest you for legitimate reasons.

This has generally been treated as security not getting to heap physical punishment (delimbing, brain damage surgery, etc) on prisoners in lieu of prison time/gulag time, unless that prisoner would otherwise be fair game for execution (confirmed antagonists, among other crimes). Some higher amount of force is allowed against hulks to subdue them, due to them being immune to stuns, but it's real shaky to argue that brain damage surgery was required or relevant for either prisoner.

Our rules on escalation make this exception as a trade off for the crew not being allowed to kill/maim security forces in the pursuit of normal, legitimate arrests. I hope this has helped you understand why you were noted.

Giving someone brain trauma by surgery for disarming an officer is excessive as fuck.

We're not talking about hitting them with a harmbaton once or twice but actually doing surgery on them to fuck them up because they disarmed an officer.

PS: Tasers don't even stun hulks.

Dax Dupont wrote:Giving someone brain trauma by surgery for disarming an officer is excessive as fuck.

We're not talking about hitting them with a harmbaton once or twice but actually doing surgery on them to fuck them up because they disarmed an officer.

PS: Tasers don't even stun hulks.

As stated it was for aiding and abetting the hulk and not the disarm in and of itself. Also tasers can be used to disable hulks to crawl speed to make them easier targets, I even gave that advice earlier when the hulk was called out.

Arianya wrote:Relevant section of the rules, under Escalation:

Exceptions: Security is expected not to retaliate with random abuse or violence unless the person in question is otherwise eligible for execution. You can't kill or maim security for trying to arrest you for legitimate reasons.

This has generally been treated as security not getting to heap physical punishment (delimbing, brain damage surgery, etc) on prisoners in lieu of prison time/gulag time, unless that prisoner would otherwise be fair game for execution (confirmed antagonists, among other crimes). Some higher amount of force is allowed against hulks to subdue them, due to them being immune to stuns, but it's real shaky to argue that brain damage surgery was required or relevant for either prisoner.

Our rules on escalation make this exception as a trade off for the crew not being allowed to kill/maim security forces in the pursuit of normal, legitimate arrests. I hope this has helped you understand why you were noted.

Well I was running a gimmick of brain damaging and releasing gulag prisoners immediately instead of giving them any time in gulag, so they spend the time going to medbay to get healed up. If they're already slated for execution then there's no point doing some minor brain damage because they're gonna be executed or borged anyway.
Although at this point I guess I'm arguing about the policy of physical punishment as opposed to time punishments for security, still I would appreciate if the note at least reflected that the MD was going to be gulaged for interfering with the arrest of a dangerous perp.

Note seems clear enough to me

Note doesn't include context of them helping a rampaging hulk

chickenboy10 wrote:Note doesn't include context of them helping a rampaging hulk

It doesn't need to. We don't need to write paragraphs about brain damage, hulks, war and peace.

It's simply not acceptable to give someone brain damage by surgery for taking someone's taser whether or not there's a hulk smashing things.

Hate to be that guy, but... Security Policy & Precedents

Stunning an officer repeatedly, using lethal or restricted weapons on them, disrupting the arrests or sentences of dangerous criminals, or damaging the brig, are examples of behaviour that may make you valid for security under Rule 4.

Escalation: Valid = eligible for execution.

Rule 1: Legitimate conflicts where people get upset do happen however, as detailed in the escalation section of the rules.

Therefore this is a Rule 0 note.

zaracka wrote:Hate to be that guy, but... Security Policy & Precedents

Stunning an officer repeatedly, using lethal or restricted weapons on them, disrupting the arrests or sentences of dangerous criminals, or damaging the brig, are examples of behaviour that may make you valid for security under Rule 4.

Escalation: Valid = eligible for execution.

Rule 1: Legitimate conflicts where people get upset do happen however, as detailed in the escalation section of the rules.

Therefore this is a Rule 0 note.

There is no rule specified in the note, you may also refer to the word "may".
If you excessively fuck with sec you might become valid but stealing a single taser.
You may note it also states damaging the brig, someone who smashes all the brig windows is valid but someone who smacks the the window once or twice shouldn't be executed or given brain damage.

I'll just lock this till headmins have time to respond since it's a while and there's no worthwhile new information added.

I don't see any reason to resort to dumb punishments like this. This ruling is in line with a previous incident where someone had some of their limbs torn off in lieu of prison time.

I don't see any reason to change that precedent. Denied.