Toxins Rework

[Hathkar]

So as it is right now, toxins can make 6 maximum capacity bombs in about 5-10 minutes. 9/10 times, these bombs are used to blow up the station, instead of the "intended" purpose of research or mining charges. The fact that Tank Transfers Valves can fix into backpacks very easily (6 in a backpack), implanted surgically, AND blow up in a moments notice with zero warning makes them, in my opinion, very boring and unexciting to play against.

So my idea is as follows:

Remove TTVs and replace them with something similar to the Syndicate Bomb (Large, uncarryable, timer based bomb that can be disarmed.

Extra Bomb Payload Shells can be crafted perhaps with plasteel (10 sheets?).

Can still be loaded with plasma and oxygen tanks to create the explosion. The tanks are mixed together when the timer runs out. (So you still need to make a proper gas mixture for a bomb).

Craftable Suicide Vest (Bomb Payload + Some Wires). Gives you a little icon in the upper left corner of the screen to start a timer (5-10 seconds?) for the bomb. Cannot be taken off once worn.


With these changes in place, if you want a maxcap sized explosion on the station, you need to have some patience or creativity in bomb placement. If you still wanted to do instant explosions from within backpacks or pockets, now you need to use grenades for that.

[InsaneHyena]

Hugbox

[Hathkar]

Do you actually have anything to contribute or some feedback? Or just snide remarks?

[DemonFiren]

Hugbox

[TribeOfBeavers]

Almost this exact thing was suggested before but nobody ever got around to coding it to see if it'd work out:
https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=12928

Also snide remarks are like 90% of the feedback on this forum.

[Qbmax32]

Hugbox

“Rarely plays”

[BeeSting12]

This idea look familiar.

[NanookoftheNorth]

I think this is a great idea.

I feel like it's more interesting to see a bomb which might blow up any second than see a hole in the station whenever you want it.

Imagine, the person planting the bomb has a few options, defend it CS style, or abandon it hoping no one knows how to defuse it or remove it. A person discovering a bomb could try to disarm it, or remove it and throw it into space.

I think it's more fun for everyone

[John_Oxford]

as someone who vividly hates toxins

this is still hugbox

[Hathkar]

Could you define "hugbox"? Or is it just a way of saying you don't like an idea (Or don't play the game much at all).

[Dr_bee]

just increase the size of TTVs to bulky for Christs sake. that would be enough to make mass bombing a bit harder, at least without bags of holding, which oddly enough, science can make.

[TribeOfBeavers]

Could you define "hugbox"? Or is it just a way of saying you don't like an idea (Or don't play the game much at all).

People tend to use it like that, but I think its supposed to mean that something makes it more difficult or impossible for dangerous or deadly things to happen, or removing negative consequences for doing something stupid.

For example, changing the meth explosion so it only knocks people down instead of blowing a hole in chemistry would be "hugboxing".

[Kel-the-Oblivious]

just increase the size of TTVs to bulky for Christs sake. that would be enough to make mass bombing a bit harder, at least without bags of holding, which oddly enough, science can make.

Fucking. This.

Those who know the power of the smuggler's satchel can easily reduce the vast majority of the station to smoldering rubble in a few short minutes. Fill your backpack up, find a nice spot, pop the tile off, spawn a satchel, put the bomb in, throw a tile back over, run away. Lather rinse repeat. Worse is having someone run into your department, hurl a single bomb, and detonate it before it even hits the ground, giving you no time to dismantle it. Reduce the power of the TTV, increase the size to bulky, and let scientists make proper bomb casings that exceed the max cap limit (Not unlimited, just bigger boom) to allow them the power to demolish entire departments, but at least give those departments an iota of time to prevent the destruction.

And before anyone bitches about "The BoH singuloth is worse" Not it's not. You die when you activate it, unlike a bomb, you have no control over its path of destruction, unlike a bomb, people can get the FUCK out of the way rather easily, unlike a bomb, the BoH requires quite a lot of materials to make, unlike a a bomb, and ANYONE can see if you are holding a pair of BoHs, unlike a bomb.

[Nabski]

>2018
>Not creating golems to BoH bomb for you.

It's like he doesn't even play.

[Kel-the-Oblivious]

>2018
>Not creating golems to BoH bomb for you.

It's like he doesn't even play.

>2018
>Hoping golems will spawn outside of free golem
>Not racing for polymorph magicarp
>Not releasing a horde of free drones to BoH for you

It's like you want people to know exactly who to blame.

[John_Oxford]

Could you define "hugbox"? Or is it just a way of saying you don't like an idea (Or don't play the game much at all).

this is the epitome of a oxymoron.

pretty sure i have like 1900 some odd connections in the last four years

the fact that you don't know what me calling your idea a hugbox feature means, literally means you haven't played here long enough to understand that concept without me explaining it.

[Selea]

Oh man. You should just google "hugbox".
I was pretty surprised.

[Hathkar]

Could you define "hugbox"? Or is it just a way of saying you don't like an idea (Or don't play the game much at all).

this is the epitome of a oxymoron.

pretty sure i have like 1900 some odd connections in the last four years

the fact that you don't know what me calling your idea a hugbox feature means, literally means you haven't played here long enough to understand that concept without me explaining it.

It wasn't even directed at you, just in general to the people who called it hugbox. Also if we're going to compare connections, I have 2563 and I started playing in May, 2017.

[Qbopper]

Could you define "hugbox"? Or is it just a way of saying you don't like an idea (Or don't play the game much at all).

this is the epitome of a oxymoron.

pretty sure i have like 1900 some odd connections in the last four years

the fact that you don't know what me calling your idea a hugbox feature means, literally means you haven't played here long enough to understand that concept without me explaining it.

It wasn't even directed at you, just in general to the people who called it hugbox. Also if we're going to compare connections, I have 2563 and I started playing in May, 2017.

don't even reply to him when his counterargument is "lol you dont know what the word is i win the argument also you're a newfag"

[John_Oxford]

Could you define "hugbox"? Or is it just a way of saying you don't like an idea (Or don't play the game much at all).

this is the epitome of a oxymoron.

pretty sure i have like 1900 some odd connections in the last four years

the fact that you don't know what me calling your idea a hugbox feature means, literally means you haven't played here long enough to understand that concept without me explaining it.

It wasn't even directed at you, just in general to the people who called it hugbox. Also if we're going to compare connections, I have 2563 and I started playing in May, 2017.

don't even reply to him when his counterargument is "lol you dont know what the word is i win the argument also you're a newfag"

i'm sorry qbop i didn't realize the word "hugbox" needed more explanation, generally i assume everyone who play's here is smart enough to understand what i mean when i say hugbox, more so someone who's only been here for give or take 180 days but somehow has 2563 connections

@op the term hugbox refers to the perpetual removal of dangerous items, areas, or features of the game, which ultimately results in the game becoming proportionally less interesting as it becomes less dangerous, due to there being no real danger as members of the station go about their day to day jobs.

in regards to your specific suggestion, preventing bombs from being stored in your backpack will cut their usage in half, if not more. which as i stated in my last two post's.

is a hugbox feature

[Dr_bee]

Could you define "hugbox"? Or is it just a way of saying you don't like an idea (Or don't play the game much at all).

this is the epitome of a oxymoron.

pretty sure i have like 1900 some odd connections in the last four years

the fact that you don't know what me calling your idea a hugbox feature means, literally means you haven't played here long enough to understand that concept without me explaining it.

It wasn't even directed at you, just in general to the people who called it hugbox. Also if we're going to compare connections, I have 2563 and I started playing in May, 2017.

don't even reply to him when his counterargument is "lol you dont know what the word is i win the argument also you're a newfag"

i'm sorry qbop i didn't realize the word "hugbox" needed more explanation, generally i assume everyone who play's here is smart enough to understand what i mean when i say hugbox, more so someone who's only been here for give or take 180 days but somehow has 2563 connections

@op the term hugbox refers to the perpetual removal of dangerous items, areas, or features of the game, which ultimately results in the game becoming proportionally less interesting as it becomes less dangerous, due to there being no real danger as members of the station go about their day to day jobs.

in regards to your specific suggestion, preventing bombs from being stored in your backpack will cut their usage in half, if not more. which as i stated in my last two post's.

is a hugbox feature

It is a feature that works well on goonstation and they do not have any problem with mass bombings. It just makes moving large amounts of bombs and hiding them require a bit more creativity than none at all. Plus you are combining 3 normal items into one item, you'd think that would make it a tad bulky but no, space magic shrinks it down for some reason.

[Hathkar]

Could you define "hugbox"? Or is it just a way of saying you don't like an idea (Or don't play the game much at all).

this is the epitome of a oxymoron.

pretty sure i have like 1900 some odd connections in the last four years

the fact that you don't know what me calling your idea a hugbox feature means, literally means you haven't played here long enough to understand that concept without me explaining it.

It wasn't even directed at you, just in general to the people who called it hugbox. Also if we're going to compare connections, I have 2563 and I started playing in May, 2017.

don't even reply to him when his counterargument is "lol you dont know what the word is i win the argument also you're a newfag"

i'm sorry qbop i didn't realize the word "hugbox" needed more explanation, generally i assume everyone who play's here is smart enough to understand what i mean when i say hugbox, more so someone who's only been here for give or take 180 days but somehow has 2563 connections

@op the term hugbox refers to the perpetual removal of dangerous items, areas, or features of the game, which ultimately results in the game becoming proportionally less interesting as it becomes less dangerous, due to there being no real danger as members of the station go about their day to day jobs.

in regards to your specific suggestion, preventing bombs from being stored in your backpack will cut their usage in half, if not more. which as i stated in my last two post's.

is a hugbox feature

So anything that removes danger is hugbox then? Golly yes, it'll be sooooo awful when people have then zero seconds to react to a MAXIMUM CAPACITY BOMB, and potentially have the chance to disarm the bomb, leading to some tense and exciting situations! Heavens forbid the bomber having to carefully and strategically place and hide a bomb so no one can get to it easily. Honestly, I should edit my original post to just have us remove the cap on bombs! Maybe toxins should also start with at least 10 TTVs, and more can be printed at the science department lathe? That's definitely anti-hugbox, since there's much more danger AND exictement!

I mean really, science should obviously have access to extremely cheap and fast to make bombs that are more effective than Syndicate Bombs, which cost a good amount of TC. And the fact you can wire TTVs to explode via remote sensor, health sensor, proximity sensors, infrared tripwires, mousetraps, and can be stuffed into bags extremely easily is definitely riveting and exciting gameplay with lots and lots of counterplay!

I'll be sure to also start up some other threads to make sure we buff all other dangerous elements on the station. We can't have it too hugboxy in here! I'm thinking traitors could start with 40 TC, and get 2 TC for every person they kill. Also remove the chem costs for changeling abilities, and their maximum health increases for each person they absorb. After all, a dangerous station is the most fun.

[John_Oxford]

-snip

And all of that would be completely feasible if you offered the same unplayable against features for the people that play against them.

Buff ling health? For every person they absorb they leave a special DNA identifier on the husks, and extracting that from the husks allows a tech tree to be unlocked in RnD that contains a plethora of anti-ling weaponry. You get more dangerous anti-ling weapons the more husk's you recover.

Jealous syndicate bombs aren't as good as maxcaps? Make them cheaper but make rwalls divert explosions and hull plating more likely to leave girders after explosions, also calculate vital electronics to be strudier, maybe even allow engineers to reinforce vital electrical systems with plasteel. More bombs but not everything get's destroyed.

Traitors start with 40 tc? Add more traitor items, better gameplay comes from more variables. But give security even more tech to go against traitors. It's about balance. They could feasibly receive a list of high value targets to kill, and if they feed a photo of their corpse into their PDA, it could reward them with 2 TC, and feasibly this could be done for other objectives, like blueprints.

You could remove chem cost for ling abilities, just give them hard side affects. You want to use a armblade? That's now your arm forever and if you undo it you no longer have a arm. Want to fleshmend? It tears all your skin off and leaves you with a maximum of 75% percent health. Want to screech? You are a mute forever afterwards. Want to sting someone? You have to stand next to them for two seconds and they are -very- aware of what you're doing.

If science starts with 10 TTV's, make the station more bomb resistant in general. It'd be feasible to print more if it wasn't round ending for you to detonate 10 of them. Make blast doors more common place and allow the AI to drop them in event of a detonation. Claim its for meteors. Or allow firelocks to be upgraded to blast doors by engineers.

You can balance things to make them weaker or remove them, or you can balance things to make them all stronger and add more things.

Which do you think is better?


If you wanted a lack of danger, play on a station with no danger.

[Incomptinence]

As someone who hates hugbox yeah this is a hugbox feature.

However it's better the have a box at all rather than a crater created through the least creative means with zero interaction involved other than some asinine easy shit like "I SAID DA MAGIC WORD U ALREDY DEDY!"

Bomb's aren't high on the interactivity, combat or guile about the only thing less interesting was our good old routine engine releases shaving rounds down to bare minimum length.

I strictly oppose the idea of explosions being better than direct combat murders simply because it makes the shuttle come sooner.
A bomber basically does the same damage as a guy killing people all round in 2-3 minutes of deployment after a tiny preparation time in a reinforced fortress.

[NanookoftheNorth]

Jet fuel can't melt steel beams

I think that maybe reworking bombs to be firebombs would be neat. Atmos typical states: OK, Plasma, Vacuum, Combustion Engine. Basically there is no middle like a typical fire in real life. I understand the station is made out of steel plates, but I think it would be more interesting to see a fire spread compared to a bomb blow a hole.

Just an idea with that in mind.

[Hathkar]

-snip

I see you completely missed the point of my post. The point is that toxins is extremely low effort, low risk, extremely high reward for antagonists now. As has been said numerous times in this thread and others. And honestly, I couldn't give less of a shit if you think if these changes would be hugbox or not. Maybe YOU should go play on a server where every single player is antag if you want constant danger?

[Not-Dorsidarf]

i'm sorry qbop i didn't realize the word "hugbox" needed more explanation, generally i assume everyone who play's here is smart enough to understand what i mean when i say hugbox, more so someone who's only been here for give or take 180 days but somehow has 2563 connections

it seems pretty silly to respond to "what does hugbox mean" and then say "lol i didnt realise I needed to explain hugbox"

[ShadowDimentio]

It is a feature that works well on goonstation and they do not have any problem with mass bombings. It just makes moving large amounts of bombs and hiding them require a bit more creativity than none at all. Plus you are combining 3 normal items into one item, you'd think that would make it a tad bulky but no, space magic shrinks it down for some reason.

Note: Goon toxins is a secret, arcane science few people know how to use, and the people who know how to use it never tell anyone because if they do it'll be changed. Don't be so hasty to assume just because bombs are bigger that's why bombings never happen.

[onleavedontatme]

https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/34601

[Dr_bee]

It is a feature that works well on goonstation and they do not have any problem with mass bombings. It just makes moving large amounts of bombs and hiding them require a bit more creativity than none at all. Plus you are combining 3 normal items into one item, you'd think that would make it a tad bulky but no, space magic shrinks it down for some reason.

Note: Goon toxins is a secret, arcane science few people know how to use, and the people who know how to use it never tell anyone because if they do it'll be changed. Don't be so hasty to assume just because bombs are bigger that's why bombings never happen.

I can tell you right now goons toxins is not as hard as you make it out to be, there isnt a guide to mass produce maxcaps on their wiki but there is enough information to get you started and once you know it takes around 15 minutes to make enough burn mix to make bombs.

The fact that it is significantly harder to move bombs around the station is what makes bombing much riskier, as you either have to drag the bombs one at a time, in your hand, where people can see it, or drag them all in a locker where everyone and their mother wants to open.

it gives an actual counter-play to bombing besides burning down toxins at round-start or having an officer literally watch the place for the entire round.

[John_Oxford]

It is a feature that works well on goonstation and they do not have any problem with mass bombings. It just makes moving large amounts of bombs and hiding them require a bit more creativity than none at all. Plus you are combining 3 normal items into one item, you'd think that would make it a tad bulky but no, space magic shrinks it down for some reason.

Note: Goon toxins is a secret, arcane science few people know how to use, and the people who know how to use it never tell anyone because if they do it'll be changed. Don't be so hasty to assume just because bombs are bigger that's why bombings never happen.

I can tell you right now goons toxins is not as hard as you make it out to be, there isnt a guide to mass produce maxcaps on their wiki but there is enough information to get you started and once you know it takes around 15 minutes to make enough burn mix to make bombs.

The fact that it is significantly harder to move bombs around the station is what makes bombing much riskier, as you either have to drag the bombs one at a time, in your hand, where people can see it, or drag them all in a locker where everyone and their mother wants to open.

it gives an actual counter-play to bombing besides burning down toxins at round-start or having an officer literally watch the place for the entire round.

Generally sci's making bombs doesn't warrant security coming in and arresting them because its a pillar of their job.

Wouldn't you rather see a scientist walk into your department with a gas mask on over seeing nothing but having the scientist go through maint right up to the side of your department and doing functionally the same thing, just moving the detonation area slightly away from the center of the room.

[ThanatosRa]

i ded plz nerf

[Zarniwoop]

Nobody cries hugbox when y'all bitch about nerfing botany but toxins can blow the station apart in the first ten minutes while botany's barely gotten off the ground. Y'all are full of it.

"Waaah don't take away toxin's ability to absolutely fuck everything up in record time. Waaah botany can't have a chem dispenser, they'll just fuck everything up (in like 30 fuckin minutes if we're still here)!"

Toxins takes basically zero skill, effort or time and the reward is through the fuckin roof. All you gotta do is manage to be cool enough/find someone cool enough to tell you the trick and then you just press a few buttons and wait a few minutes.

If you ask me, the real hugbox is crying that this powerful weapon isn't super easy for you to make at round-start. Maybe toxins should just start with one already made so it isn't too tough for the snowflakes in toxins.

[kevinz000]

why are people upset that the most low effort destruction in the game is being nerfed

[Hathkar]

why are people upset that the most low effort destruction in the game is being nerfed

hugbox

[Dr_bee]

why are people upset that the most low effort destruction in the game is being nerfed

hugbox

I swear to god "hugbox" is just a codeword for "I want my antag rounds to be completely without effort or have the crew ever challenge me"

[Qbopper]

why are people upset that the most low effort destruction in the game is being nerfed

hugbox

I swear to god "hugbox" is just a codeword for "I want my antag rounds to be completely without effort or have the crew ever challenge me"

dude if i have to steal shit or interact with people instead of making easy bombs or buying shit from the uplink then thats time i could have spent killing people wasted

[letshavecake]

Why does the station even have "toxins research" that is literally nothing but mixing bombs? Bombs which have only ever had the incredibly weak justification of "miners can use them"(which also means an easy excuse for why nobody gives miners actual mining explosives that can have any kind of precision, "bombs already exist, they don't need any more, if you want different kinds of explosives just put them in traitor uplinks")

Every other part of science has gone through significant changes and improvements and expansions over the years except for toxins because the idea is just that extraordinarily dumb and boring and nobody can touch it without people getting mad

[Selea]

I think , that plasma and plasma-related gasses should be useq to power some !!!SCIENCE!!! equipment.Like interdimensional portals.