/tg/Station 13

kevinz000 wrote:I'm dropping the revolver nerf due to !popular! demand (apparently?) but I don't see how the others are unrelated considering they're also generally used for one hit ranged stuns.
I guess the bar chemicals are somewhat unrelated but over the past few months I've only seen them used in syringe guns.

• They serve as ranged, lethal weaponry that every officer has on them at all times without needing to access the armory, and gives them a reason to have it and not be under suspicion.
• Lasers shoot through windows as well as do burn damage, which massively nerfs blobs because every officer has additional lasers on them at all times. It also makes xenos more susceptible to a degree.
• A lethal sidearm is undeniably more effective at killing anything but a regular human than stunning is; trying to say otherwise is shortsighted. You can gun down a giant spider with no risk to yourself with a light laser, but you can't tase it and then baton it with the same degree of safety.
• It increases the amount of lethal ranged weaponry on the station hugely, from roundstart.
• It puts tasing and lasing into a single item. It was awful with energy guns, and it'll be awful here!
• It encourages security lasering people into softcrit to pacify them instead of tasering and arresting them, doubly so because tasers take two shots now.
• It gives security officers lasers! Come on! Do you know how ridiculous that sounds? Security are not military police, they are mallcops, and have been fluffed and painted that way until Steelpoint came along and started arming them to the teeth. It honestly strikes me as just stroking a powerboner by giving them all laser sidearms when you are well known to be a security main.

Oldman Robustin wrote:You can't do this without addressing slips.

Slips are still overtuned in my view and this PR would absolutely ruin any semblance of balance if stuns remains as is. You can't gut ranged stuns and then keep one of the most spammable and effective stuns in the game around.

kevinz000 wrote:https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/33781
I'd like some comments that aren't immediately "CLOSE THIS FUCK YOU DONT EVEN BOTHER". Or that, I guess, if you really feel strongly about keeping the current system, but I feel like this would be interesting. All updates will be on the PR description, please check often if you're interested.

Oldman Robustin wrote:You can't do this without addressing slips.

Slips are still overtuned in my view and this PR would absolutely ruin any semblance of balance if stuns remains as is. You can't gut ranged stuns and then keep one of the most spammable and effective stuns in the game around.

Xhuis wrote:Here are my issues with light lasers:

• They serve as ranged, lethal weaponry that every officer has on them at all times without needing to access the armory, and gives them a reason to have it and not be under suspicion.
• Lasers shoot through windows as well as do burn damage, which massively nerfs blobs because every officer has additional lasers on them at all times. It also makes xenos more susceptible to a degree.
• A lethal sidearm is undeniably more effective at killing anything but a regular human than stunning is; trying to say otherwise is shortsighted. You can gun down a giant spider with no risk to yourself with a light laser, but you can't tase it and then baton it with the same degree of safety.
• It increases the amount of lethal ranged weaponry on the station hugely, from roundstart.
• It puts tasing and lasing into a single item. It was awful with energy guns, and it'll be awful here!
• It encourages security lasering people into softcrit to pacify them instead of tasering and arresting them, doubly so because tasers take two shots now.
• It gives security officers lasers! Come on! Do you know how ridiculous that sounds? Security are not military police, they are mallcops, and have been fluffed and painted that way until Steelpoint came along and started arming them to the teeth. It honestly strikes me as just stroking a powerboner by giving them all laser sidearms when you are well known to be a security main.

CPTANT wrote:The light laser does 10 damage, you have to literally hit every shot on an unarmored target to even crit one person.:roll:

kevinz000 wrote:One of the complaints with CPTNT's attempt was that tasers still slowed after one shot so in reality they were getting buffed, which is why I was hesistant on the stamina damage.

Calibraptor wrote:I'm 50/50 on this. There's some aspects of it I really like, such as turning the taser into a two shot stun and stamina damage slowing down how fast you can attack stuff. Other aspects I despise, such as taser lasers and nerfing the bar chems.

CPTANT wrote:

Calibraptor wrote:I'm 50/50 on this. There's some aspects of it I really like, such as turning the taser into a two shot stun and stamina damage slowing down how fast you can attack stuff. Other aspects I despise, such as taser lasers and nerfing the bar chems.

What's the problem with the light taser? It's damage is so low that it basically only has a use against critters.

It is more a way of keeping the hybrid taser interesting.

TL;DR: I want combat to have more than "click them before they click you with a taser".

I want combat stuns to be relevant but not THE method of combat.

I want stamina to be a useful combat mechanic without being an immediate game over due to the slowdown it adds that makes you basically helpless.

CPTANT wrote:The light laser does 10 damage, you have to literally hit every shot on an unarmored target to even crit one person.

Xhuis wrote:

CPTANT wrote:The light laser does 10 damage, you have to literally hit every shot on an unarmored target to even crit one person.

I think it's important to note that it's very easy to just carry around two tasers as a security officer. I already see people do it so that dual-wielding them in disable mode allows you to spray down a hallway, and I can see it being the same with light lasers. Any kind of ranged, rechargeable lethals are very powerful even if they were to do maybe 5 damage per shot.

Limski wrote:Taser quickdraw duels are fun in their own right, just saying.

John_Oxford wrote:>people who have been here less than two years suddenly proclaiming that stun combat is by far the worst thing to have ever blessed the god forsaken metal death trap of space station 13

stun combat has been more or less the same since the game came out, the games combat system has been built around it, changing it now is changing the games entire combat system.

im 100% positive none of you arm chair coders have the dedication or time to completely rewrite the game's -entire- combat system.

so let's stop being dense and stop trying to fuck with stuns

kevinz000 wrote:

John_Oxford wrote:>people who have been here less than two years suddenly proclaiming that stun combat is by far the worst thing to have ever blessed the god forsaken metal death trap of space station 13

stun combat has been more or less the same since the game came out, the games combat system has been built around it, changing it now is changing the games entire combat system.

im 100% positive none of you arm chair coders have the dedication or time to completely rewrite the game's -entire- combat system.

so let's stop being dense and stop trying to fuck with stuns

3 and when's the last time you played? :^)

BeeSting12 wrote:

kevinz000 wrote:

John_Oxford wrote:>people who have been here less than two years suddenly proclaiming that stun combat is by far the worst thing to have ever blessed the god forsaken metal death trap of space station 13

stun combat has been more or less the same since the game came out, the games combat system has been built around it, changing it now is changing the games entire combat system.

im 100% positive none of you arm chair coders have the dedication or time to completely rewrite the game's -entire- combat system.

so let's stop being dense and stop trying to fuck with stuns

3 and when's the last time you played? :^)

I saw him on the server last night.

Stickymayhem wrote:

TL;DR: I want combat to have more than "click them before they click you with a taser".

Why is this inherently bad for a game based on paranoia and the potential for quick deaths? How do you compensate for more call-outs? How does security capture the random obnoxious shitters effectively?
getting the drop on someone is still extremely lethal as you will get the first hit in before they do but it makes combat not an immediate game over because you didn't quickdraw before they did which is even easier when we have QUICKDRAW HOTKEYS COUGH COUGH NINJANOMNOM but that's off topic. you could call out before anyways, tasers don't mute you. security uses a taser per usual as they have more shots.

I want combat stuns to be relevant but not THE method of combat.

The defining attribute in SS13 combat is mobility. Reducing your opponent's mobility to 0 is always going to be the priority to secure damage. What are the alternatives? Chasing with a high force weapon is always going to be ineffective because every click is difficult. Lasering people is similarly difficult to rely on.
old tasers didn't do anything about mobility but disablers did. if ranged stuns are nerfed having a higher clickdelay actually means something far more in non-melee combat so stamina damage still does alot without being an instant win.
i'm going to do something about per limb targetting and see if i can make targetting different areas more useful and stuff.

I want stamina to be a useful combat mechanic without being an immediate game over due to the slowdown it adds that makes you basically helpless.

The entire purpose of stamina damage is to get people through windows and stop people winning just by running in circles around you. The slowdown is a good mechanic and differentiates it from instant stuns as a longer range option for controlling mobility
we didn't have disablers commonplace until long after i came to tg. back before that we had 50 tile instastuns. this isn't something that has been around forever, and i don't think being slowed to uselessness within two shots that takes like a full minute to recover is fun just like one hit stuns.

Anyway I think "One-click and you're arrested/dead" is actually a decent system. It makes combat quick, deadly and stressful. Tasers already have ways to counter-act them. Windows, the long delay allowing disarm spam, limited ammo and short range, slow projectiles are all abusable.
what long delay? it was removed. its projectiles are as fast as any other projectile. short range is a thing and the new ones will have a longer range. combat is still stressful as you will still get stunned and therefore killed it just takes more than a single hit.
I think as usual, people will debate on the forums and github, you'll make the changes thinking it has some support and then the less-vocal majority of actual players will throw a shitfit until it's reverted. We've been through this before.
which is why we're likely to have a server poll if testmerges are successful before it's considered for merging right? :^)

PKPenguin321 wrote:about to read the PR, inb4 it's stamina damage bullshit