/tg/Station 13

Posted: **Thu Aug 24, 2017 12:56 pm**

I have always had the feeling that the way ss13 handles round ending somewhat flawed.

Rounds that have little to no events drag on and on because there is no reason to call a shuttle. Action filled rounds on the other hand end quickly because damage to the station or crew "justifies" calling the shuttle, while these are the most fun situations.

Shuttle calling discourages any type of repairs since it is easier to just call the shuttle anyway.

Some gamemodes really encourage fast calling to "win" the round. From a victory condition perspective there is literally no reason not to call the shuttle as soon as a single cultist is found.

I have always thought that a time or goal based system would lead to better situations in the game.

I don't want to change this in ss13. I just want to discuss what you think about it.

Posted: **Thu Aug 24, 2017 1:02 pm**

I think this is always being brought up. I've played this game on and off for 7 years nearly. When there was just Goon station. This was being discussed even back then.

Personally imo? The crew should be punished in some manner for calling the shuttle when there is no need. The crew should always choose to endeavour when possible but yes, most aren't up to the task/too boring to do so. I cannot see how causing any restrictions would solve this however, there is already a time limit to when it can be called and sometimes the station really IS fucked up that badly that quickly.

Posted: **Thu Aug 24, 2017 1:05 pm**

How could you possibly punish them for pressing the "game is over" button, because now the game is over there's nothing to punish.
And if you intend to stop that button from working once pressed like that, bad news, people will just alt-f4/hit the cross/suicide/ghost

Posted: **Thu Aug 24, 2017 7:43 pm**

I think you might've misunderstood what I meant. I don't think there should be a rule IC or OOC to actually punish early calls. I just wish the collective playstyle of the server was geared towards punishing the heads (if they are the ones who called early 4noraisin because 'I'm bored') IC. The crew should fight back an early 4noraisin call because well, they want their paycheck no? It's not a matter of me wanting set rules in place more just a personal wish that playstyles were slightly different.

Sorry for the confusion.

Posted: **Thu Aug 24, 2017 8:14 pm**

Rustledjimm wrote:I think you might've misunderstood what I meant. I don't think there should be a rule IC or OOC to actually punish early calls. I just wish the collective playstyle of the server was geared towards punishing the heads (if they are the ones who called early 4noraisin because 'I'm bored') IC. The crew should fight back an early 4noraisin call because well, they want their paycheck no? It's not a matter of me wanting set rules in place more just a personal wish that playstyles were slightly different.

Sorry for the confusion.

That only amplifies the problem of the shuttle not getting called in boring rounds.

Posted: **Thu Aug 24, 2017 8:15 pm**

Yes. In fact, it's so well known, Kor actually designs planet station (not that it will ever be finished) around those criticisms.

Posted: **Thu Aug 24, 2017 8:33 pm**

I actually find extended to be the most fun rounds. I can do my job/my own thing without being killed, blown up, succ'd etc.

Like today me and a few built the 17 emitters SM engine, it was fun. More fun than I've had in a long time even as an antag.

Sure I had to recall the shuttle like 5 times but the Captain was being a cunt anyway.

Posted: **Thu Aug 24, 2017 9:46 pm**

Rustledjimm wrote:I actually find extended to be the most fun rounds. I can do my job/my own thing without being killed, blown up, succ'd etc.

Like today me and a few built the 17 emitters SM engine, it was fun. More fun than I've had in a long time even as an antag.

Sure I had to recall the shuttle like 5 times but the Captain was being a cunt anyway.

To be honest if you like building things without antags why don't you just go play a game that is focussed on building your own things, like minecraft, factorio or space engineers?

Posted: **Thu Aug 24, 2017 10:54 pm**

Posted: **Fri Aug 25, 2017 2:30 am**

CPTANT wrote:
To be honest if you like building things without antags why don't you just go play a game that is focussed on building your own things, like minecraft, factorio or space engineers?

This thread is basically both of us going 'YOU DON'T PLAY THE WAY I PLAY REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE'.

Posted: **Fri Aug 25, 2017 6:14 pm**

The problem is that if you make the round impossible to end early, you must also remove situations that cause the station to become utterly uninhabitable before the round is endable.

Nobody likes it when some guy reading off their notes fast-makes six maxcaps and vaporizes medbay, the bridge, escape, engineering EVA and a main corridors, then you have to wait for the shuttle to "refuel" and *then* you have to wait 10-15 minutes once that point is reached for the round to end despite the fact that there is no point in continuing at that point.

You can't have powerful early game tools like SM singuloes or toxin maxcaps (or whatever the latest way to kill 60% of the station population and make the station untraversavle and unusable) AND mandatory minimum round length increases.

Posted: **Fri Aug 25, 2017 6:25 pm**

Not-Dorsidarf wrote:The problem is that if you make the round impossible to end early, you must also remove situations that cause the station to become utterly uninhabitable before the round is endable.

Nobody likes it when some guy reading off their notes fast-makes six maxcaps and vaporizes medbay, the bridge, escape, engineering EVA and a main corridors, then you have to wait for the shuttle to "refuel" and *then* you have to wait 10-15 minutes once that point is reached for the round to end despite the fact that there is no point in continuing at that point.

You can't have powerful early game tools like SM singuloes or toxin maxcaps (or whatever the latest way to kill 60% of the station population and make the station untraversavle and unusable) AND mandatory minimum round length increases.

Or you actually try to repair shit and survive in a hostile environment......

Posted: **Fri Aug 25, 2017 6:34 pm**

Trying to repair shit and survive is a lot of fun imo. There is a reason Engineering is one of my favourite departments.

But several max caps all at once or a singulo?
Nope, bye bye station that shit ain't repairable. Even I will admit shuttle needs to be called asap in those situations.

Posted: **Fri Aug 25, 2017 6:49 pm**

Yeah when the engineers are mostly all dead because bombed while they sat around waiting to have a purpose and EVA is a cloud of vapour, "trying to repair shit" isn't possible for 90% of the crew, so they get to sit in whatever air pocket they may have for 20 minutes then they either die trying to get to the shuttle or don't. I'm sure the problem here is that they aren't sitting down bitching on Tcomms (if commas are still in one piece) for long enough, let's extend the wasted time!

Posted: **Fri Aug 25, 2017 6:53 pm**

>Repairing anything
>When you can just reset the station in 15 minutes
>And also try your luck at grief lottery

Posted: **Fri Aug 25, 2017 7:42 pm**

I feel like, as referenced in the "stupid reasons for calling the shuttle" thread, this really is an opportunity for admins to take the role of centcom in this situation. Depending on the severity of the reason, the admin in charge could ask for more information in reports or outright deny the shuttle call if it's ridiculous enough. Though, unfortunately, that calls for admins to do more work. Still, I think that perhaps sending in supply shuttles with materials to fix any sort of engineering problem (caused by bombs, wizards, etc) would go a long way to extending rounds. I would have to imagine that centcom is probably mad about having to evacuate so many people that they probably would crack down on the rising cost of emergency shuttle fuel anyways.

edit: The fact that people are bored (ergo, calling the shuttle) can only really be dealt with through creative means. This can really only be done through players or admins creating creative roleplaying situations, or the community itself getting better at roleplay.

Posted: **Fri Aug 25, 2017 9:23 pm**

I think people are looking at this backwards. If a bomb/singulo/whatever has torn half the station apart and created an unfun situation, forcing them to keep playing isn't going to make the situation fun somehow. The game is round-based; it doesn't matter if the round ends in 10 minutes or 10 hours. Everything is transient. If that discourages you from rebuilding, that's fair, but that's also on you. And if that fact discourages pretty much everyone, maybe rebuilding isn't even a realistic option at all. And if that's the case, then we really need to rethink how much damage is caused in general.

That being said, tying ending the round to a voluntary "emergency" exit is completely idiotic design, especially if we're going to have extended in the mix. There should absolutely be a victory condition for the crew that makes all antags redtext.

Posted: **Fri Aug 25, 2017 9:32 pm**

Actually it would be pretty interesting if completing station goals (or something similar) would let the crew "win".

That way crew have something to work to and antagonists get something to sabotage.

Posted: **Fri Aug 25, 2017 9:46 pm**

how about if the shuttle is called and recalled over and over the comms terminals either disable the function of calling or blow up?

Posted: **Fri Aug 25, 2017 9:51 pm**

CitrusGender wrote:I feel like, as referenced in the "stupid reasons for calling the shuttle" thread, this really is an opportunity for admins to take the role of centcom in this situation. Depending on the severity of the reason, the admin in charge could ask for more information in reports or outright deny the shuttle call if it's ridiculous enough. Though, unfortunately, that calls for admins to do more work. Still, I think that perhaps sending in supply shuttles with materials to fix any sort of engineering problem (caused by bombs, wizards, etc) would go a long way to extending rounds. I would have to imagine that centcom is probably mad about having to evacuate so many people that they probably would crack down on the rising cost of emergency shuttle fuel anyways.

I do this from time to time but players always bitch about it. *shrug*

Posted: **Fri Aug 25, 2017 10:39 pm**

I like the idea of station goals causing automatic red-text for antags. The station goals since they were brought in are rarely even touched but it could create a nice new dynamic for crew vs antags. If the crew actually start getting close to completion of a station goal the antags need to find a way to sabotage it if they have completed their objectives. It gives the crew a focus to work towards, something which some players seem to require to not be shitters, just as the antags have.

Posted: **Sun Aug 27, 2017 2:23 pm**

Rustledjimm wrote:I like the idea of station goals causing automatic red-text for antags. The station goals since they were brought in are rarely even touched but it could create a nice new dynamic for crew vs antags. If the crew actually start getting close to completion of a station goal the antags need to find a way to sabotage it if they have completed their objectives. It gives the crew a focus to work towards, something which some players seem to require to not be shitters, just as the antags have.

The interesting thing I can immediately think of is that this would make shuttlerushing an antagonistic behaviour, so the crew would be discouraging it and become suspicious of anyone doing it.

I'd also like to point out that some of my most favourite rounds of all time involved struggling my way through a damaged, depowered station for an hour with little to no resources available to me, gathering allies, not being sure if any of them were the bomber, avoiding fires and monsters in the shadows etc. That cannot happen with our current culture.

Posted: **Sun Aug 27, 2017 2:31 pm**

because why repair the station or actually beat the traitors/lings/cult/whatever when you can just call the shuttle and roll for antag again
there is an extremely large amount of people that pretty much just suicide if they don't get traitor rather than doing their job, making the game fun with a gimmick, or [gasp] actually roleplaying instead of memeing in netspeak

(i will admit i am guilty of this sometimes)

Posted: **Sun Aug 27, 2017 2:36 pm**

AnonymousNow wrote:
Rustledjimm wrote:I like the idea of station goals causing automatic red-text for antags. The station goals since they were brought in are rarely even touched but it could create a nice new dynamic for crew vs antags. If the crew actually start getting close to completion of a station goal the antags need to find a way to sabotage it if they have completed their objectives. It gives the crew a focus to work towards, something which some players seem to require to not be shitters, just as the antags have.
The interesting thing I can immediately think of is that this would make shuttlerushing an antagonistic behaviour, so the crew would be discouraging it and become suspicious of anyone doing it.

I'd also like to point out that some of my most favourite rounds of all time involved struggling my way through a damaged, depowered station for an hour with little to no resources available to me, gathering allies, not being sure if any of them were the bomber, avoiding fires and monsters in the shadows etc. That cannot happen with our current culture.

The people currently shuttlerushing are sec/captain, who can't be antags, and good luck "discouraging" the people with all the guns.

Posted: **Sun Aug 27, 2017 2:47 pm**

Yes, that would be currently; it would likely change if this idea was introduced.

And the agency of the people with guns in the game is likely an issue worth discussing elsewhere.

Posted: **Sun Aug 27, 2017 8:21 pm**

I would say security are shuttlerushing for a reason.

For security rounds can be a battle of attrition. The longer the round goes on for often the more likely an officer is to die and permanently. The loss of a single good officer is a huge blow to an already not huge security force. Also the longer the round goes on for the more likely it is for an antag to have completed their objective.

However, say if the station goal is completed then the crew win automatically? Security have a goal other than just catching antags. Protect the goal. Protect the crew building the goal and flow of resources to it. I think this could possibly, I do say possibly as we have no idea how the server population would react, change how security acts. Instead of just being a GIT DAT ANTAG and chasing them dangerously through maintenance they can set themselves up in an area the goal is being constructed, have officers in locations where resources come from (science, cargo etc.) to ensure flow of resources to the goal.

I think it's an idea worth looking into no?

Posted: **Tue Aug 29, 2017 4:06 am**

STATION OBJECTIVE GREEN TEXT ROUND ENDING 2017

Posted: **Wed Aug 30, 2017 4:28 pm**

Posted: **Wed Aug 30, 2017 10:12 pm**

I feel like it is, but I also feel like it's kind of an intrinsic part of the game as a whole now. There are ways to mitigate the way it's used, but in general, I think it's a necessary evil.

Posted: **Sat Sep 30, 2017 10:19 pm**

Look at it this way, a prison that does not allow people to leave (contrary to being a detainment center) is literally a concentration camp.

If you don't let us leave bored admins will work us to the bone and kill us all to end the round with events of increasing severity.

Posted: **Sat Sep 30, 2017 10:58 pm**

Warning: long as fuck.

Spoiler:

Posted: **Sat Sep 30, 2017 11:46 pm**

That's a lot of words to badly compare two things.

Posted: **Sun Oct 01, 2017 1:01 am**

Got a better one, Pubby?

Posted: **Sun Oct 01, 2017 1:19 am**

AnonymousNow wrote: The ship comes into port, and the passengers mill around irritably, talking about how they'd like to get back to their cruising soon, when an order comes over the PA for everyone to leave the ship, due to health and safety regulations. There's outrage as people demand their time aboard, bewilderment as people wonder how they got into this situation, upset at the fact that, even if money isn't a factor, many of the people there simply don't have the time to start another cruise, as you wish to do.

This is a pretty big downside of shuttlecalling as a mechanic - if you have limited time, say, one hour and a half, you might find yourself on station with the shuttle called at 30 minutes. You aren't going to get that rainbow slime this round, or you might, but won't enjoy it; then it's 15 minutes until endgame. And after that, you don't have time to pursue that objective into another round.

Posted: **Sun Oct 01, 2017 1:35 am**

make it incredibly easy to repair the station, increase progression speed and speed of the game in general, then remove the escape shuttle. restart round vote is automatically entered every hour, and the round will not end unless the vote passes.

the vote can pass with or without admins on, and it will automatically do it regardless of circumstance.

make construction, repairs, ect extremely fast and with one or two steps maximum, add more content revolving around station integrity (shields, auto cannons that can shoot down syndicate interceptors, breach detectors that seal off breached areas automatically, repair drones that automatically seek and repair to stabilize hull breaches)

make department progression extremely fast, RnD can be maxed out with combat shotguns in 20 minutes with moderate experience, all cargo items are half price, security has equipment closer to a PMC than mall cops. engineering has a synthetizer that takes air and or plasma and magically turns it into materials. they also start out with a huge fuck ton of materials in storage along with rare engine types, along with two engines of the same type.

then in order to make this all make sense and not make everyone bored.

game types can now be mixed, and ran at the same time.

so you can now have a blob, xenos, and nuke ops at the same time.

they'll be in brackets, so there will be a gap between events that have smaller antags, like ninjas and borers that aren't exactly super harmful to the crew.

in between these brackets, the crew will repair any damage done to the station.

done. get oxford'd

Posted: **Sun Oct 01, 2017 7:30 am**

One thing I've always wondered is why air-tight bulkheads (like firelocks) aren't a thing. If there was a breach on a space station they'd lock the area down airtight so more air doesn't escape. However in SS13 people just... leave the entire main hallways open to a breach.

An air alarm registering too low pressure should lock the area down.

Posted: **Sun Oct 01, 2017 3:12 pm**

Rustledjimm wrote:One thing I've always wondered is why air-tight bulkheads (like firelocks) aren't a thing. If there was a breach on a space station they'd lock the area down airtight so more air doesn't escape. However in SS13 people just... leave the entire main hallways open to a breach.

An air alarm registering too low pressure should lock the area down.

Nanotrasen has an artificial level of stupidity in regards to things like this, as part of the game's design and intent; if things were too secure, too safe, they could become stale. The elements of danger being a thing to work against are important, but currently there doesn't seem to be much of an impetus to work against them when the shuttle is already on its way.

Posted: **Tue Oct 03, 2017 3:50 am**

It's long noticed to be intentional and have shit design in the map/station but all this gets is damaged that spreads everywhere too fast, takes forever to repair, and promptly makes not many want to bother.

Things are stale for other, more numerous reasons, rather than the station being made of paper. Chicken and egg perhaps: the shuttle is on the way because the damage is always too severe and because of windows fucking everywhere with no actual damage compartmentalization that works, the station hemorrhages air like a sieve.

Posted: **Tue Oct 03, 2017 4:31 am**

It's really easy to patch up the station thanks to all the powercreep RCDs received over the years, not to mention tools like the experimental welder. Problem is air drain over a long round will eventually make the station unlivable unless someone goes through all the effort to set up a lavaland siphon farm.

But as easy as basic repairs are, it's still easier to press the zero-consquence reset button with the added bonus of getting another antag roll.

Posted: **Tue Oct 03, 2017 9:37 am**

I think the answer is to have some way to encourage station goals. Not the station goals we have, just ... something. Its 5:35 and I have classes so I'm a bit groggy and wanted to put my 2 cents in

Posted: **Tue Oct 03, 2017 1:34 pm**

The Clowns Pocket wrote:I think the answer is to have some way to encourage station goals. Not the station goals we have, just ... something. Its 5:35 and I have classes so I'm a bit groggy and wanted to put my 2 cents in

this is literally the only post you've ever made that had some substance and I agree with and it might be because you posted it while tired

Posted: **Tue Oct 03, 2017 7:20 pm**

There's a Catch-22, though. HRP servers actually have shuttle calling essentially disabled (admins can and will recall the shuttle in most cases), so the rounds drag on far after most players have died. This is attempted to be remedied by a "crew transfer" every hour after the first which ends the round without the station being destroyed. Unfortunately, this doesn't solve the fact that rounds are fucking long.

However, this server, for example, has shuttle calls happen far too early. I understand that oftentimes, it's the best way to "win" the round, by leaving the station when antags show up. But we've gotten to the point where engineers don't really have a job besides making sure that nobody fucks up SM crystal, and setting up solars. I agree that we should attempt to keep the rounds going a little bit longer, or at least dissuade trigger happy captains from calling immediately.

Posted: **Tue Oct 03, 2017 8:40 pm**

i think it's a combo of most people not finding engineering fun and everyone being absurdly trigger happy to reroll for antag

i have no idea how to fix either of those problems

Posted: **Tue Oct 03, 2017 8:44 pm**

Qbopper wrote:i think it's a combo of most people not finding engineering fun and everyone being absurdly trigger happy to reroll for antag

i have no idea how to fix either of those problems

The engineering is harder to fix. Maybe have the station in more disrepair at roundstart, so if nobody does engineering, it makes it nearly impossible to get things done, although that might not help anyways. I personally find engineering pretty fun, as long as I get new stuff to build with from science.

As for the antag reroll, either make extended come up more often to try and stop rerolls (as in, they have a higher chance to get an extended round than another antag round), or just stop developing antags besides fixing bugs. If antags stop getting more fun tools than the rest of the station, then people will care less about getting them.

Posted: **Tue Oct 03, 2017 11:44 pm**

DiamondSentinel wrote:As for the antag reroll, either make extended come up more often to try and stop rerolls (as in, they have a higher chance to get an extended round than another antag round), or just stop developing antags besides fixing bugs. If antags stop getting more fun tools than the rest of the station, then people will care less about getting them.

this is my wet dream what the fuck

realistically, though. the majority of players seem to come here for that sort of gameplay, so it would alienate a lot of people to make such a radical change

Posted: **Tue Oct 03, 2017 11:46 pm**

alienate them so i can play again

Posted: **Wed Oct 04, 2017 7:10 am**

One way to approach this could be to utterly remove the whole concept of the escape ship.

The reasons why are a moot point, out of range, thrown forward in time, major war going on, etc. The point is that the crew are isolated and alone.

At this point you have semi-random station goals that are major tasks unto themselves that would require the entire crew to coooperate to accomplish, a teleported, ship, comms array, etc. Finishing the goal would end the round.

You then increase the ambient threat to the station, regular meteor strikes, radioation storms, monster attacks, etc.

Finally you have a end game event that occurs if the crew have yet to finish the goal, or the antagonists have yet to end the round. Could be a NPC invasion or the station being blown up. Something to drive the round forward and act as a major threat to avoid.

Posted: **Wed Oct 04, 2017 8:49 am**

Steelpoint wrote:One way to approach this could be to utterly remove the whole concept of the escape ship.

The reasons why are a moot point, out of range, thrown forward in time, major war going on, etc. The point is that the crew are isolated and alone.

At this point you have semi-random station goals that are major tasks unto themselves that would require the entire crew to coooperate to accomplish, a teleported, ship, comms array, etc. Finishing the goal would end the round.

You then increase the ambient threat to the station, regular meteor strikes, radioation storms, monster attacks, etc.

Finally you have a end game event that occurs if the crew have yet to finish the goal, or the antagonists have yet to end the round. Could be a NPC invasion or the station being blown up. Something to drive the round forward and act as a major threat to avoid.

Yeah these are basically the principles I am using for a little ss13 inspired game I started making in unity.

Posted: **Wed Oct 04, 2017 8:58 am**

Not like it matters because it won't ever get finished.

Posted: **Wed Oct 04, 2017 2:01 pm**

Qbopper wrote:
DiamondSentinel wrote:As for the antag reroll, either make extended come up more often to try and stop rerolls (as in, they have a higher chance to get an extended round than another antag round), or just stop developing antags besides fixing bugs. If antags stop getting more fun tools than the rest of the station, then people will care less about getting them.
this is my wet dream what the fuck

realistically, though. the majority of players seem to come here for that sort of gameplay, so it would alienate a lot of people to make such a radical change

Believe me. I love the ideas too.

My point with both of my suggestions is just that there's not really a realistic change we can make to the game without getting a new playerbase.

However, with the playerbase we have, I don't think we'll ever have trouble keeping players. People will keep coming back because it's the familiar, even if it starts to become less fun. Nightmares and new Clock Cult (to say nothing of the players in-game) are horrible, but I'm still playing on the server, because it's familiar.

/tg/Station 13

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