/tg/Station 13

Posted: **Mon Apr 21, 2014 1:13 pm**

I think we can all agree that the current stun-based combat is varying degrees of shitty. We're all robust enough that I don't really need to explain how and why.

To my knowledge, TG Code tried to deal with the issue by reducing stun times across the board, alongside a global speed nerf. This was complete shit, and was universally reviled.

I'd propose an alternative, yoinked directly from baycode & derivatives - Tasers deal 70-80 holodamage per shot.

I don't know how familiar you might be with Holodamage, but basically it's the holodeck weapons. Holodamage naturally fades away over time, and is applied as normal damage. When a player is at 100 holodamage, he is knocked into psuedo-crit for a period of time until the holodamage fades away. As with real damage, when a player is at high levels of holodamage, he is slowed down considerably.

The net result is that, with holodamage tasers, you need to land more than one shot. Usually two, but rarely three. This means that you can afford to get tased once, and you might be able to get away - The One Hit Wonder is gone, but the slowdown makes a follow-up shot considerably easier. If you're caught in the open, or unable to dodge the follow-up shot, you're down for a good 20 seconds - More than enough time to close and cuff.

This would probably best be coupled with a taser capacity buff - Vanilla tasers up from five shots to ten, and stun revolvers up from eight shots to sixteen. If you need to land two hits to stun, that's half a tasers capacity.

Posted: **Mon Apr 21, 2014 1:24 pm**

Dude, that exists. Disablers. They do holodamage. They can be ordered from cargo. It's literally a holo taser.

Posted: **Mon Apr 21, 2014 1:35 pm**

Does the armory start with them?
Do they spawn in Security lockers?
Why even use them, if one-hit-stun tasers are not only standard issue, but objectively better?
Why go out of your way, dealing with another department entirely, for equipment that is worse than what you already have?

The entire point of Holodamage Tasers is a replacement for Tasers and E-Gun stun, because they're overpowered to the point of being dominant - If your ranged weapon doesn't stun or OHKO, it's shit unless it's filling a niche.
Even a Pulse Rifle, doing all of eighty damage, is more often fired on stun - The DESTROY setting is a two-hit kill, but Stun is a one-hit neutralization.

Posted: **Mon Apr 21, 2014 1:39 pm**

Psyentific wrote:Why even use them, if one-hit-stun tasers are not only standard issue, but objectively better?

What he said.

Disablers are cool. Now let's replace tasers with disablers.

Posted: **Mon Apr 21, 2014 1:51 pm**

Psyentific wrote:and was universally reviled.

Not really.

That being said, I think your idea has promise. Stun is just a shit mechanic as it is right now.

Posted: **Mon Apr 21, 2014 1:55 pm**

fleure wrote:
Psyentific wrote:and was universally reviled.

Not really.

That being said, I think your idea has promise. Stun is just a shit mechanic as it is right now.

If it's good enough for every other fork of SS13, it's good enough for us.
If it's good enough for two of the three most popular SS13 servers, it's good enough for us.

Posted: **Mon Apr 21, 2014 1:58 pm**

So long as EVERY other stun weapon in the game is nerfed to compensate, this includes C20r-SMG's, Ebows, Magic Missiles, Marauders Stun Machine Gun and everything else.

It would be a MASSIVE change to the game that would need a lot of attention and prior announcement, not something we drop on the player base and expect them to like it from the get go.

Posted: **Mon Apr 21, 2014 2:13 pm**

Steelpoint wrote:So long as EVERY other stun weapon in the game is nerfed to compensate, this includes C20r-SMG's, Ebows, Magic Missiles, Marauders Stun Machine Gun and everything else.

It would be a MASSIVE change to the game that would need a lot of attention and prior announcement, not something we drop on the player base and expect them to like it from the get go.

A quick run-down...

C-20r: Keep the stun - The C-20r, especially with new Nuke Ops, is supposed to be very overpowered.
E-Bow: Keep the stun - It's a traitor weapon whose main selling point is concealability and the stun. If you remove the stun, you make it a shittier Traitor Revolver at the same damage as a Fire extinguisher or Toolbox.
Traitor Revolver/Mateba: Keep it as-is - Doesn't have a stun, doesn't need one. I'd toy with giving it a knockdown, but then again probably not - Two hits a crit.

Stun Revolver: If the Taser/Disabler's shot capacity is increased, also increase the Stun Revolver to compensate. The current stats have 5/taser 8/SR, for a straight upgrade - You want to keep that. Common mistake is buffing taser but not buffing SR, so SR goes from a straight upgrade to a straight downgrade.
Detective's Revolver: Tricky. If you keep the OHKO, the Det's revolver is now one of the best ranged weapons in the game. If you remove the OHKO, it's now ten damage six shots complete shit. I'd keep the stun, if only because there is exactly one Detvolver. Edit: Actually, give the Detvolver taser's holodamage minus ten.

E-Gun: Holodamage, as with Taser.
Beanbag Shotgun Shell: Holodamage it. Actually, I'd add a scatter effect similar to the buckshot shells, but with a sizable amount (40? 60?) holodamage per pellet. This turns the Bartender's Shotgun and the Armory's Riot Shotguns into potent area-suppression and anti-riot weapons.

Magic Missile: Again, the main feature of Magic Missile is the stun - It does nothing else. Coupled with Wizard being designed to be overpowered (WIZARD!!), it's in keeping with the theme
Mech-Mounted UAC/2 & LBX/10: Remove stun - The UAC/2 is already very powerful, at a three-round burst of 40 brute/hit.
Mech-Mounted Taser: I'd keep the one-hit stun, if only to encourage usage of the mech-taser - Remember, it's a mech sized taser, that's gotta put out some serious voltage. Edit: Actually, make it 110 Holodamage.
Misc. Guns/Summon Guns: Don't need to touch them, on account of rarity/summonguns/adminspawn.

Posted: **Mon Apr 21, 2014 2:17 pm**

So Traitors keep their one-hit stuns but not Security?

Then no is my opinion.

I don't mind the high power antags keeping their stuns, but fuck the idea of letting traitors keep their stuns yet forcing Security to play the double/triple tap game.

Posted: **Mon Apr 21, 2014 2:21 pm**

I guess you're right on the count of E-Bows, but half the point of E-Bows is the stun. Even if you give them 80 holodamage for the doubletap game, they're still just a cheaper, quieter, pocketable, non-redtexting, ammo-regenerating Traitor Revolver - Remember that the Tvolver is a two-hit crit, and can be quickly doubletapped.

What if you swapped the Telecrystal cost? So the E-Bow keeps its stun, but is 7 TCs (Ebow/emag), but the Traitor Revolver is an unsubtle doubletapper for 4TCs?

Posted: **Mon Apr 21, 2014 2:39 pm**

Psyentific wrote:I guess you're right on the count of E-Bows, but half the point of E-Bows is the stun. Even if you give them 80 holodamage for the doubletap game, they're still just a cheaper, quieter, pocketable, non-redtexting, ammo-regenerating Traitor Revolver - Remember that the Tvolver is a two-hit crit, and can be quickly doubletapped.

Except the revolver has limited ammo with extra rounds requiring telecrystals to purchase, where-as the ebow has a larger capacity which auto-regenerates.

Posted: **Mon Apr 21, 2014 2:43 pm**

Myroc wrote:
Psyentific wrote:I guess you're right on the count of E-Bows, but half the point of E-Bows is the stun. Even if you give them 80 holodamage for the doubletap game, they're still just a cheaper, quieter, pocketable, non-redtexting, ammo-regenerating Traitor Revolver - Remember that the Tvolver is a two-hit crit, and can be quickly doubletapped.
Except the revolver has limited ammo with extra rounds requiring telecrystals to purchase, where-as the ebow has a larger capacity which auto-regenerates.

Well, yeah. My point is that, without the stun, the E-Bow is complete shit. With a two-shot stun, the E-Bow is a better revolver for cheaper. With a one-hit stun, the E-bow is dominantly powerful. There's not really any good options here.

Fake Edit: You can actually print .357 Revolver ammo from a hacked autolathe, see: The Geist Method.

Real Edit: You could remove the stun but buff E-Bow damage to something like 20 or 30, maybe 40. Probably 35 for a tripletap. That still loses the big selling point on the E-Bow, which is dat knockdown. Oh! What if you gave the E-Bow 20 toxin damage, but also made it mute the target for a good five, ten seconds? It strengthens the 'stealthy weapon' bit, without turning it into a strong combat weapon. It also gives traitors a method of making guaranteed quiet kills that isn't parapen-C4, which is definitely a good thing.

Posted: **Mon Apr 21, 2014 3:03 pm**

Steelpoint wrote:So Traitors keep their one-hit stuns but not Security?

Then no is my opinion.

I don't mind the high power antags keeping their stuns, but fuck the idea of letting traitors keep their stuns yet forcing Security to play the double/triple tap game.

That's exactly how things are working on bay, BTW. Ebow instastuns.

Posted: **Mon Apr 21, 2014 3:08 pm**

Comparing Baystation to TG Station is a bad idea, due to the massive difference in player behaviour between the player bases.

All I am seeing this as right now is a massive nerf to Security in favour of antags. I'm not a fan of that.

Posted: **Mon Apr 21, 2014 3:10 pm**

Steelpoint wrote:Comparing Baystation to TG Station is a bad idea, due to the massive difference in player behaviour between the player bases.

All I am seeing this as right now is a massive nerf to Security in favour of antags. I'm not a fan of that.

I've been playing Baycode for the past two months-ish. It's so much better. Even with a TG playerbase, especiallywith a TG playerbase, it's so much more !!FUN!!.

If you prune the features that Bay puts in because they're autistic sperglords, you're left with all kinds of nice things we should've had long ago. Like holodamage tasers. Like a functional medical system.

Posted: **Mon Apr 21, 2014 3:12 pm**

Steelpoint wrote:It would be a MASSIVE change to the game that would need a lot of attention and prior announcement, not something we drop on the player base and expect them to like it from the get go.

This is not the place for this sort of discussion.

Psyentific wrote:To my knowledge, TG Code tried to deal with the issue by reducing stun times across the board, alongside a global speed nerf. This was complete shit, and was universally reviled.

This is not the place for this sort of misinformation.

Keep the political bullshit out of these threads or they will be locked.

Posted: **Mon Apr 21, 2014 3:13 pm**

I would not be against a trial implementation of these changes to at least see how they would work with the player base. I am wary of thinking that Bay mechanics can translate 1:1 to TG Station and work perfectly.

However we should establish that a Trial test is in fact a trial (See the Stun/Movement nerf "trial").

Posted: **Mon Apr 21, 2014 3:15 pm**

Rockdtben wrote:
Psyentific wrote:To my knowledge, TG Code tried to deal with the issue by reducing stun times across the board, alongside a global speed nerf. This was complete shit, and was universally reviled.
This is not the place for this sort of misinformation.

Keep the political bullshit out of these threads or they will be locked.

It was mostly out of the thread, and I apologize for my misconception. Everyone I talked to didn't like it, so I assumed - I've never had to play on it, so I haven't formed my own opinion.

Steelpoint wrote:I would not be against a trial implementation of these changes to at least see how they would work with the player base. I am wary of thinking that Bay mechanics can translate 1:1 to TG Station and work perfectly.

Give it to NTStation - To my understanding, we're already your testbed. If Disablers are already in-game, just swap Security Officer and Warden's standard taser for a disabler and there you go.

Bay Mechanics can't directly translate - Most of them are built for a less robust environment. But, with tweaking (See: /vg/), they can greatly enhance the experience. I'd encourage anyone who cares enough to form their own opinion to go to /vg/station, or to go to one of the Baycode derivatives on the hub and try it out - Possibly Paradise. BayStation (as a community) we all agree about, but there's certain features of their code that are excellent.

Posted: **Mon Apr 21, 2014 3:18 pm**

Don't forget that Disablers require around 5 hits to knock a target down, but have 20 round's in reserve.

Posted: **Mon Apr 21, 2014 3:20 pm**

Steelpoint wrote:Don't forget that Disablers require around 5 hits to knock a target down, but have 20 round's in reserve.

Five hits? Holy shit, that's terrible. You're never going to get five hits off once they start sax'ing - You'll be lucky to get three. Buff posthaste.

Posted: **Mon Apr 21, 2014 3:22 pm**

Yeah, I'm fairly sure that we don't need a trial to know that disablers are way, way worse than tasers (doesn't stop comdoms from denying my request for a disabler crate, though). I don't think that security needs a buff, but such a massive nerf is uncalled for, too.

Posted: **Mon Apr 21, 2014 3:23 pm**

Psyentific wrote:
Steelpoint wrote:Don't forget that Disablers require around 5 hits to knock a target down, but have 20 round's in reserve.
Five hits? Holy shit, that's terrible. You're never going to get five hits off once they start sax'ing - You'll be lucky to get three. Buff posthaste.

Or you could
you know
stop them from saxxing?

Either way, I think this is a bad idea as long as sanics are kept.

Once sanics are out of the equation, I'm willing to give it a try, as long as everything else is rebalanced to fit.

Posted: **Mon Apr 21, 2014 3:24 pm**

The simple fix, then, is to buff Disablers before switching them with tasers. Two hits a knockdown, three, tops. You have to keep in mind that people are going to be sax'ing like mad after the first hit (possibly after the draw), so you want the first hit to apply enough damage to cause a slowdown.

E: Even without sanics, you won't get five hits in on a half-decent sax'er.

Posted: **Mon Apr 21, 2014 10:58 pm**

For everyone to be aware holodamage is actually now called stamina and the disabler was placed in as a test device people can use from science i believe that once you are first hit you do slowdown meaning each consecutive hit you get slower and easier to hit.

Take lasertag that now uses the stamina damage try it out with other people to see how after one or two hits you are slowed down preventing as much saxing.

Posted: **Mon Apr 21, 2014 11:18 pm**

yes call it stamina damage because then you can shorten it to "stamdam" which is fun to say.

Posted: **Tue Apr 22, 2014 3:25 am**

Consecutive hits slow you down? Huh. That's neat.

Posted: **Tue Apr 22, 2014 5:31 am**

Steelpoint wrote:Don't forget that Disablers require around 5 hits to knock a target down, but have 20 round's in reserve.

Code: Select all

/obj/item/projectile/energy/disabler
name = "disabler beam"
icon_state = "omnilaser"
damage = 34
damage_type = STAMINA
var/range = 7

It requires three hits, actually, but I agree with your point. Due to the insane speed that spacemen travel at, it's hard enough to get off one hit. It'd be nice to have the option of getting a disabler from anywhere other than an armory-access locked crate. Maybe it can be added to replace, or accompany the stun revolver in the protolathe? In Security Lockers, along with the tasers, so you can take your pick? The three-hit-to-knockout thing should stay, though, as any less is too robust, and any more is useless.

Posted: **Tue Apr 22, 2014 12:39 pm**

Add targeting? This would also let security arrest people without shooting them four times, from the threat of getting shot eight times.

Plus, hostages.

Posted: **Tue Apr 22, 2014 1:49 pm**

Autoaim is for unrobust casuals. It's a cool feature and it results in a lot of nice situations, but it takes a lot of the skill out of being a good shot.

Posted: **Tue Apr 22, 2014 2:19 pm**

True, but it also lowers the ping gap.

Posted: **Tue Apr 22, 2014 2:30 pm**

I have never once had problems because of latency. Server lag, yea, but that's for everyone.

Posted: **Tue Apr 22, 2014 3:32 pm**

I'd like to see targeting implemented in some manner, but probably not as something available for everyone. Make Targeting HUDs that go into your eye slot instead. Maybe make it an expensive RnD item (or even possibly available for purchase for operatives).

Posted: **Tue Apr 22, 2014 3:34 pm**

Myroc wrote:I'd like to see targeting implemented in some manner, but probably not as something available for everyone. Make Targeting HUDs that go into your eye slot instead. Maybe make it an expensive RnD item (or even possibly available for purchase for operatives).

Integrate with Sechud, but not Hudsunglasses. You can have eye protection or autoaim, not both.

Posted: **Tue Apr 22, 2014 5:08 pm**

Psyentific wrote:
Myroc wrote:I'd like to see targeting implemented in some manner, but probably not as something available for everyone. Make Targeting HUDs that go into your eye slot instead. Maybe make it an expensive RnD item (or even possibly available for purchase for operatives).
Integrate with Sechud, but not Hudsunglasses. You can have eye protection or autoaim, not both.

Maybe make it an augmentation?

Posted: **Tue Apr 22, 2014 5:10 pm**

Nah, thats a tad OP.

I like the Sechud one, but then you also have to deal with the ALWAYS PORTABLE FLASHERS assholes.

/tg/Station 13

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