/tg/Station 13

Posted: **Sun Apr 02, 2017 12:57 pm**

They're not fun, there's nothing to do as them, and nobody ever picks them. Golems, Lifebringers, and Syndicate roles are great and all allow you to learn and experiment. They're especially good for new players who might not want to pick Scientist or Chemist or some other role because people expect these jobs to be done quickly, thus reducing their chances to learn it without being in the way on station. All the vet and beach bum ruins do is reduce the chance of people getting to play one of the fun ghost roles.

GIT EM OUT

Posted: **Sun Apr 02, 2017 3:07 pm**

I say keep the ruins but remove the ghost role spawners. those ruins have some decent loot in them that both miners and lavaland roles can find useful. the beach bums area is the only lavaland source of booze for the mining mixed drink, and the vet ruin gives a great source for medical supplies as well as a double barreled shotgun.

Posted: **Sun Apr 02, 2017 3:36 pm**

I agree both are kind of lame, the same loot could probably be placed into thematically cooler ruins

Posted: **Sun Apr 02, 2017 3:42 pm**

Only use for those ruins is to get to the station or one of the other ruins, like Pride's Mirror

Posted: **Sun Apr 02, 2017 5:32 pm**

I like vet ruin, had some good RP as them before and it can be fun to try to survive the wastes with just things you scrounge up from your office. I also like beach bum when there are people to come by and hang out, but if you're alone then yeah it's pretty boring

Posted: **Sun Apr 02, 2017 5:58 pm**

We already have a "bartender in the middle of nowhere" gimmick area, I don't know why we need another that's twice as big [but only if you replace it with something better].

Posted: **Sun Apr 02, 2017 6:24 pm**

You're free to remove these ruins, but you need to map replacements as well.

Posted: **Sun Apr 02, 2017 8:34 pm**

We could have an ayybductor ruin that can be used to teach xenobiology and surgery. Maybe give them rules to remain neutral to everyone, even visitors, unless they interfere with your research?

Not sure about a second ruin. Maybe a crash-landed ship with some cryopods and a bunch of materials to make a base? Not sure how you might go about teaching engineering/atmospherics in a ruin.

Posted: **Sun Apr 02, 2017 9:07 pm**

>lets remove these optional roles that you are not forced to pick

??!?!?!?!?!?

Posted: **Sun Apr 02, 2017 9:24 pm**

oranges wrote:>lets remove these optional roles that you are not forced to pick

??!?!?!?!?!?

Lets remove almost totally unused content that is wasting space.

All their ever used for is meming like making xenos. Neither of them are decent tutorials

Posted: **Sun Apr 02, 2017 9:26 pm**

oranges wrote:>lets remove these optional roles that you are not forced to pick

??!?!?!?!?!?

Optional roles that are only used to:
1) ignore their intended function and really just get used as second lives to return to the station
2) ignore their intended function to meta their way to the xeno ruin to spawn antag xenos

They're optional but ultimately un-used or misused. Better ghost roles exist and these take slots from the more desirable roles.

Posted: **Sun Apr 02, 2017 10:14 pm**

Couldn't put in better words than myself. Vet hospital was Cheridan's lame attempt to be funny off the back of the long forgotten meme of 'Cancer Rat' a one time admin event which then spawned the vetinary hospital with the intent to cure/house cancer rat.

Beach bum is just lazy (really doing anything is virtually impossible, you're just in a dome, its your only source of air & enrichment), same as space bartender (I already said my piece on drink ruins for being narcisstic & pointless)

Doctors in vetinary hospital are atrocious to play as, as the entire premise of the ruin is either ruined by geography (badly placed lava/monsters/megafauna) the supporting animal roles are TERRIBLE, and all the doctors can look forward to is escaping to the station to join a pointless RP department as non-staff devoid of anything to do and then get murdered during rev or some stupid shit if they actually survive the trip by meta-knowledge cheating their way back.

I don't think syndicate base is good but its sure better than the above mentioned.

cedarbridge wrote: Optional roles that are only used to:
1) ignore their intended function and really just get used as second lives to return to the station
2) ignore their intended function to meta their way to the xeno ruin to spawn antag xenos

They're optional but ultimately un-used or misused. Better ghost roles exist and these take slots from the more desirable roles.

Oranges is being arrogant talking about something they don't even associate with, assuming quality on the basis of choice. If there are bad features that serve no purpose in existing in the moment and place (golems mine, ashies hunt) then they deserve (doctors/beach bums wander into danger mindlessly as a second life for the CMO or chef on the station)

Kor wrote:You're free to remove these ruins, but you need to map replacements as well.

Not actually, because of the ruin budgeting system will fill in the blanks.

Posted: **Sun Apr 02, 2017 10:43 pm**

It's another case of "one player abused this thing remove it"

Posted: **Sun Apr 02, 2017 10:53 pm**

I've literally never once seen these ruins actually used, EVER.

Nobody-- NOBODY wants these to stay around.

Posted: **Sun Apr 02, 2017 10:54 pm**

Saegrimr wrote:It's another case of "one player abused this thing remove it"

Nobody abused it because nobody but 2 people bothered to play it because its unfun and unimaginitive filler content.

Anonmare wrote:We could have an ayybductor ruin that can be used to teach xenobiology and surgery. Maybe give them rules to remain neutral to everyone, even visitors, unless they interfere with your research?

Not sure about a second ruin. Maybe a crash-landed ship with some cryopods and a bunch of materials to make a base? Not sure how you might go about teaching engineering/atmospherics in a ruin.

Its more helpful to look for a idea before you purport it, if you can help it.

But yes the premise of something to do, to stop you from wandering (given so many people complain about golems/ashwalkers taking loot, but thats because their roles are outside, syndicate base syndies don't steal loot)

Posted: **Sun Apr 02, 2017 11:07 pm**

Saegrimr wrote:It's another case of "one player abused this thing remove it"

But in the context of ghost roles it has nothing interesting going for it.

Ashwalkers have the combat tutorial hunter gatherer kind of shit. Golems are a science tutorial. Botany pod is a botany tutorial. Syndicate base has fun memes like syndicate comms and researching viruses.

Beach Dome: Its a pleasure dome and you have no weapons other than a pickaxe to fight goliaths, watchers and legion.

Veterinarian: One cow and mouse meme and two doctor pods. Only get used if close to the station because haha good luck mining all the way to the station

Posted: **Sun Apr 02, 2017 11:10 pm**

Space bar & hotel out in the middle of nowhere and explicitly expect you to use a teleporter to visit. Never nearly gets more than 1 person at a time because its unsustainable and has issues with people escaping and getting gibbed/admin action put against them.

Posted: **Sun Apr 02, 2017 11:21 pm**

wasted space?

Posted: **Sun Apr 02, 2017 11:24 pm**

I think we had a discussion about this before. Its literally a big "KILLROY WAS HERE" marker for personal coder notoriety by adding content with no value. Filler content.

Posted: **Sun Apr 02, 2017 11:28 pm**

More ghost roles. Less useless ghost roles.

Posted: **Mon Apr 03, 2017 2:58 am**

Does anyone else even remember why cancer rat land was added any more

Posted: **Mon Apr 03, 2017 3:00 am**

Discussion to replace is pointless until someone makes better ruins to put in their stead

Posted: **Mon Apr 03, 2017 6:47 am**

no value?

the fuck do you people think the tg in /tg/station stands for

Posted: **Mon Apr 03, 2017 7:55 am**

As I've stated multiple times in the past, there's nothing keeping vets and beach bums from leaving. It was never my intention that they'd all just fart around waiting for people to come in with sick cats or whatever. Each ruin is well stocked with equipment, especially the vets who have copious medical supplies. Some of these supplies require more effort to get than others. Bums don't have any weapons? You can disassemble the wood tables and make baseball bats. Whoa.

cedarbridge wrote: Optional roles that are only used to:
1) ignore their intended function and really just get used as second lives to return to the station

Lavaland spawners are literally second lives. They're Kor's version of Lifweb migrants, they're supposed to make their way to the station.

Posted: **Mon Apr 03, 2017 10:40 am**

oranges wrote:no value?

the fuck do you people think the tg in /tg/station stands for

People who play the game like to play games, art should be art but not devoid of being playable. Arguing the clause of traditional games, traditional games have actual features and mechanics, and usually a purpose or they won't sell well. What has any of this got to do with the brand of TG? There are so many new people on TG that the name is meaningless and we are just (that server place with the loose rules and some cool shit)

Arty/minimalist/games which you don't even play are modern. Pubbies that just want to play a SS13 server without being patronised for not upholding "TG values" is a product of going public on the byond hub and raising & attracting awareness of new players to join the community. Coders are not obliged to uphold "TG values" either as long as both groups observe and follow its rules.

Posted: **Mon Apr 03, 2017 1:28 pm**

No really does anyone else remember cancer rats

Posted: **Mon Apr 03, 2017 1:45 pm**

Cheridan wrote:As I've stated multiple times in the past, there's nothing keeping vets and beach bums from leaving. It was never my intention that they'd all just fart around waiting for people to come in with sick cats or whatever. Each ruin is well stocked with equipment, especially the vets who have copious medical supplies. Some of these supplies require more effort to get than others. Bums don't have any weapons? You can disassemble the wood tables and make baseball bats. Whoa.

cedarbridge wrote: Optional roles that are only used to:
1) ignore their intended function and really just get used as second lives to return to the station
Lavaland spawners are literally second lives. They're Kor's version of Lifweb migrants, they're supposed to make their way to the station.

Explain to me how they are supposed to find the station without metagaming? They really bring 0 value to the migrant stuff its literally just normal people. People only spawn in these roles when miners have dug tunnels to them already or they are right next to the mining base thats it.

Oh not to mention beach bum only has two oxygen tanks so everyone else pretty much gets fucked

Also my biggest issue is they are massive fucking ruins that eat up megafauna/tendril spawns

Posted: **Mon Apr 03, 2017 1:55 pm**

confused rock wrote:No really does anyone else remember cancer rats

Animal hospital PR - Cheridan - https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/16983 (No picture PR)

Beach Bum/Biodomes - Cheridan = https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/17348

Maintainer interference coding stuff JUST TO BE FUNNY HO HO HE HE LOOK AT MY JOKE RUIN HA HA HOOOOO HOOOOOOOOOOOO BOY THATS A GOOD ONE HOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO AH.

- https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/ ... -212649904

Spoiler:

Posted: **Mon Apr 03, 2017 2:03 pm**

If it was added as a shitty meme why do we need to make a cool replacement to get it to stop taking up a role I could be using to be a lifebringer?

Posted: **Mon Apr 03, 2017 2:13 pm**

Lazengann is right, we already have multiple good roles out of a very small handful of ruins that spawn multiple times, as far as variety goes, if the optional variety of non-ghost & ghost ruins of bad, people prefer to just play the good ones and actively wait until the good ghost roles appear.

People don't want to play bad ghost roles besides novelty or to be migrants as bombadil rightly points out. Geography/monsters without a pre-planned route will screw you over (metaknowledge), and one of the premises of ghost roles is that they were out of the way so you don't currently interact with the station round in a meaningful way. Prisoner ship had the same problem with Arpee antagonists causing crime on the station because they were murderers and therefore becoming significant problems for sec to find & pin down, basically a license to be human & grief regarding whether they made it back or not.

Making beach bum & animal hospital better without fundamentally changing its mechanics (syndicate base had the same issue but people are marooned there to stop them migrating with sniper rifles & syndie gear to the station, plus other small changes which means that atleast the co-ordinator ghost role can interact & help traitorous people on the station) is pointless. It needs to have a purpose other than to escape or remain static doing a service job/RP job that requires clients or one time visitors dropping in.

Posted: **Mon Apr 03, 2017 2:45 pm**

FantasticFwoosh wrote: Animal hospital PR - Cheridan - https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/16983 (No picture PR)

Are you blind?

Posted: **Mon Apr 03, 2017 2:49 pm**

Remie Richards wrote:
FantasticFwoosh wrote: Animal hospital PR - Cheridan - https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/16983 (No picture PR)
Are you blind?

There are no pictures of the ruin which was merged for a joke, roll again for a d20 and maybe the rhetorical question might make sense.

Posted: **Mon Apr 03, 2017 2:55 pm**

FantasticFwoosh wrote:
Remie Richards wrote:
FantasticFwoosh wrote: Animal hospital PR - Cheridan - https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/16983 (No picture PR)
Are you blind?
There are no pictures of the ruin which was merged for a joke, roll again for a d20 and maybe the rhetorical question might make sense.

Grow a pair of eyeballs and a brain, please.

Cheridan commented on 19 Apr 2016

@GunHog if you must truly spoil the sensation of discovery for yourself this is what it will look like in-game http://i.imgur.com/PxL0RhW.png (sans the honk turfs of course, i loaded it as its own z-level for testing)

Posted: **Mon Apr 03, 2017 4:01 pm**

Nothing is secret on coderbus, if the effort was really put in to care about secrecy then it'd be marked in , why couldn't they have just been up front about it when everyone else does the same thing with showcasing their ruins? There's nothing secret about it.

That image isn't even the completed ruin, it doesn't count because there are outside turfs too around it which also add to how horrible the ruin is, astroturf grass, a bin that spills it contents everywhere for cheap loot, a bonepile decal with a single pickaxe that basically (1 airtank and 1 pick has to be shared between THREE useless doctors, a talking cow & CANCER RAT) *last time i remember the cow & rat were made atmos independent*

Fuck. Fans & additional internals had to be added to the ruin because previously without stealing the animal crate air supply (like really who knows animal crate code?) there were no gas tanks to take outside into a airless enviroment and every time you opened the door, the entire ruin would depressurise. I mean it was already made to be completely useless, then backpedalled so people can't argue that its a useless migrant ruin and failing twice as hard.

The tutorial should be

Spoiler:

Posted: **Mon Apr 03, 2017 6:36 pm**

FantasticFwoosh wrote:Nothing is secret on coderbus, if the effort was really put in to care about secrecy then it'd be marked in , why couldn't they have just been up front about it when everyone else does the same thing with showcasing their ruins? There's nothing secret about it.

That image isn't even the completed ruin, it doesn't count because there are outside turfs too around it which also add to how horrible the ruin is, astroturf grass, a bin that spills it contents everywhere for cheap loot, a bonepile decal with a single pickaxe that basically (1 airtank and 1 pick has to be shared between THREE useless doctors, a talking cow & CANCER RAT) *last time i remember the cow & rat were made atmos independent*

Fuck. Fans & additional internals had to be added to the ruin because previously without stealing the animal crate air supply (like really who knows animal crate code?) there were no gas tanks to take outside into a airless enviroment and every time you opened the door, the entire ruin would depressurise. I mean it was already made to be completely useless, then backpedalled so people can't argue that its a useless migrant ruin and failing twice as hard.

The tutorial should be
Spoiler:

The ruin doesn't have any fans it still all goes out the door

Posted: **Mon Apr 03, 2017 8:12 pm**

Does it not? I thought it did after i went trawling through all of cheridans PR's as a smaller commit while doing updates to lavaland ruins. I wouldn't know because i don't play meme ruins and refuse to partake in the pointless exercise. Thank you for supplimenting the case that its also under-maintained garbage.

Posted: **Mon Apr 03, 2017 8:17 pm**

>You have to replace it to get it removed

Vets are now biologists. They get a medical center that they can open to the public for free healing and a xenobio area for breeding slimes. There, now your useless meme role might actually get played.

Posted: **Mon Apr 03, 2017 8:20 pm**

I still say they should be ayys with xenobio, surgery and genetics machinery tbh

Posted: **Mon Apr 03, 2017 8:32 pm**

FantasticFwoosh wrote:
Anonmare wrote:I still say they should be ayys with xenobio, surgery and genetics machinery tbh
Its more helpful to look for a idea before you purport it, if you can help it.

Silly rabbit, unless you have a ideas thread up about it, here's one i already suggested.

Also *coughs and turns page in YE OLDE BOOK OF ADMIN COMPLAINTS*

https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... 80#p275310

A case for doctors using the albiet limited tools & metaknowledge (takes two seconds for ghosts to scout out) in order to quickly become infected (notice they even approached the wall from a particular angle) leading to a admin intervening and deleting them because they rolled for free xenomorph antag.

> This only happened yesterday even while we were still discussing this issue. This point on role ruining the role is relevant as it is inevitable that the previous doctor turned xeno could have turned the vetinary hospital into a nest & actively encouraged doctors to spawn in to be ressurected as xenomorphs (which is a considerable upgrade)

Posted: **Mon Apr 03, 2017 9:00 pm**

does anyone still have fwoosh unignored other than me?

Posted: **Mon Apr 03, 2017 9:02 pm**

oranges wrote:does anyone still have fwoosh unignored other than me?

Me because I'm not a fucking ass

Posted: **Mon Apr 03, 2017 9:46 pm**

oranges wrote:does anyone still have fwoosh unignored other than me?

I always feel bad and never go through with ignoring somebody

Posted: **Tue Apr 04, 2017 7:18 am**

I don't care if im ignored, it means i've hit nerves somewhere and people don't have the capacity to not care without having to shield themselves.

Also this is extremely relevant - https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/ ... -291413419

MMI miracles map recieved a boatload of criticism on the original PR, instead of asking to raise standards of "art" oranges waved it past under the clause of 'evolving' the game.

Posted: **Tue Apr 04, 2017 11:42 am**

FantasticFwoosh wrote:I don't care if im ignored, it means i've hit nerves somewhere and people don't have the capacity to not care without having to shield themselves.

Also this is extremely relevant - https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/ ... -291413419

MMI miracles map recieved a boatload of criticism on the original PR, instead of asking to raise standards of "art" oranges waved it past under the clause of 'evolving' the game.

Like it or not oranges has better judgement on this than you, and no, you're not just hitting nerves, it's people think you're a raging shitposter that baits others for fun. I don't know why I'm even bothering to respond to you at this point, but I guess I'm dumb and I keep responding anyways and I just have to get the last word, right?
Also I don't see how that has to do with this.

Posted: **Tue Apr 04, 2017 12:20 pm**

Force merging at discretion for 'progress' over quality as priority, hence why we are moaning of low quality here. Shorthand was what i was driving towards. Just seemed to correlate with the issues here on the opposite end of not actually bad looking aesthetic ruins (constructive use of assets) with actual playability scrapped and apathetic to ghost roles (which is ironic because kor made the other two good ghost roles) github staff stamping it and letting it go through.

- A falter in judgement from oranges if you want to affirm that they have relatively good judgement. Leading us to maintain content nobody uses or sees in one of the least mandated areas of exploration & ruins which 80% of the time has no bearing on the station, and is usually only frequently found by explorers because of a shared Z level for lavaland.

- Short of removing them since they are art-ruin pointbloat blockers, it would be more constructive to remove the ghost roles altogether & subsequently decrease the cost of them. Or log how many times they are actually ever used.

- The only thing the doctors have going for them is to leave (providing a goliath doesn't smash down the wall and chase them out) and find the station, that is their mechanical purpose since there is nobody to treat or application for them to work on out there.

Kevinz do you actually have a opinion on the beach bum or vet hospital ruin or is getting that last word and telling me to go to the hut just to cause drama too tasty for you?

Posted: **Tue Apr 04, 2017 1:01 pm**

I really like that idea of replacing the vet with a xenobio ruin

Posted: **Tue Apr 04, 2017 1:02 pm**

Me too

Posted: **Tue Apr 04, 2017 1:13 pm**

A xenobio ruin seems cool on paper until they figure a way to flood the station with sentient spiders or an army of golems.

Even more so with the ease with which they can escape, I'd rather have the derelict given things for drones to use without leaving to the station rather than add a ghost role that can create more ghost roles.

Posted: **Tue Apr 04, 2017 1:17 pm**

Nobody said it had to be slime xenobiology, perhaps there is a facility to breed cows & rats.

Somehow playing pied piper and flooding the station with cancer disease ridden mice is as destructive but somehow fluffier.

Posted: **Tue Apr 04, 2017 1:48 pm**

D&B wrote:A xenobio ruin seems cool on paper until they figure a way to flood the station with sentient spiders or an army of golems.

Even more so with the ease with which they can escape, I'd rather have the derelict given things for drones to use without leaving to the station rather than add a ghost role that can create more ghost roles.

>Ease at which they can escape

What ease? They are on a lava hell planet. You could just not give them mining tools like the hydroponics ruin.

/tg/Station 13

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