/tg/Station 13

There was a pretty heated argument in sybil OOC today about the merits of replacing the engine with the SM. I'm not leaning one way or the other but there were quite a few people complaining, and some mentioned having issues with how the SM replacement was merged (I don't know the specifics of the complaints).

Thread that proposed the change: https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=9863

I don't have a specific opinion beyond "I think engineering could be more interesting", this thread is more because I'd prefer the people with problems to tell it to people who can make those changes than me

Should paste the argument here then if you want people to be able to read it.

Kor wrote:Should paste the argument here then if you want people to be able to read it.

It was multiple people with multiple points, and I'd have to browse through to get all of the messages

I'd rather let the people in question submit their complaints in their own words because it's a. less work for me :^) and b. I don't want to misconstrue what they have to say

EDIT: there was a lot of negative reactions to my inital "make a post in feedback forums" because people feel coders will refuse to listen to their feedback, so I'm actually not even sure if anyone will post at this point

SM in its current state is unwhelming power production wise and entirely too safe stability wise. It should have much better power production capabilities while also having a much greater chance of catastrophe. We mostly had this with the singulo though its power production limit was hard capped at whatever you could get out of the highest stage singulo that didn't break containment. The tesla gave entirely too much power for being essentially an even easier singulo. The SM adds complexity and the ability for scaling production, but its just so stable right now you practically have to congaline people into the thing even with full emitters and no venting to get it to explode.

My complaint is that the only reason to set up the Singulo/Tesla instead of solars was speed and simplicity. The SM is much more complicated. The SM delaminates what feels like most rounds if it gets set up and it makes solars even more appealing. I have never once thought "Yes, the game is better with this in it."

I got banned for jumping in to it. Bad change

calzilla1 wrote:I got banned for jumping in to it. Bad change

WHY WAS MY PR CLOSED FOR FIXING THIS

iamgoofball wrote:

calzilla1 wrote:I got banned for jumping in to it. Bad change

WHY WAS MY PR CLOSED FOR FIXING THIS

inb4thread is derailed because people don't post why they dislike the SM and just give goof shit for being a meme machine

cedarbridge wrote:SM in its current state is unwhelming power production wise and entirely too safe stability wise. It should have much better power production capabilities while also having a much greater chance of catastrophe. The SM adds complexity and the ability for scaling production, but its just so stable right now you practically have to congaline people into the thing even with full emitters and no venting to get it to explode.

I've recently PR'd a whole bunch of changes that did pretty much exactly what you suggested. Try filling the chamber with plasma or co2 for more power and more FUN.

calzilla1 wrote:I got banned for jumping in to it. Bad change

(Several times across several rounds)

Looks like none of the people in question have posted their issues with the SM, like I said in game

OOC: Qbopper: if you won't post your complaints in a place where the people with the power to change stuff cna hear them then enjoy having the SM forever

I like the SM because it satisfies my inner autism

cedarbridge wrote:SM in its current state is unwhelming power production wise and entirely too safe stability wise. It should have much better power production capabilities while also having a much greater chance of catastrophe. We mostly had this with the singulo though its power production limit was hard capped at whatever you could get out of the highest stage singulo that didn't break containment. The tesla gave entirely too much power for being essentially an even easier singulo. The SM adds complexity and the ability for scaling production, but its just so stable right now you practically have to congaline people into the thing even with full emitters and no venting to get it to explode.

A PR increasing instability was merged 24 hours ago.

I think it's important to bear in mind we had the singulo for years and years so people will obviously be less inclined to give the SM a chance. That and the singulo has had more time to be tweaked which the SM has not (not as a "real" main engine anyway).

Atlanta-Ned wrote:

calzilla1 wrote:I got banned for jumping in to it. Bad change

(Several times across several rounds)

(Twice)

calzilla1 wrote:

Atlanta-Ned wrote:

calzilla1 wrote:I got banned for jumping in to it. Bad change

(Several times across several rounds)

(Twice)

if you knowingly did it again you have no excuse

this is off topic like I expected yeehaw

Qbopper wrote:

calzilla1 wrote:

Atlanta-Ned wrote:

calzilla1 wrote:I got banned for jumping in to it. Bad change

(Several times across several rounds)

(Twice)

if you knowingly did it again you have no excuse

this is off topic like I expected yeehaw

(And there were several other engies and I doubt one person jumping into it will fuck everything up)
Yee haw pask the whisky

The supermatter is a total hugbox of an engine that screams "HEY I'M ABOUT TO BLOW UP" for literally an hour before it blows up. We've gone from "the engine gets out too much" to "the engine has yet to get out once". For fuck's sake, once I set a bomb right next to the container and it didn't even fucking care. This is unacceptable.

Lazengann wrote:The SM delaminates what feels like most rounds if it gets set up

ShadowDimentio wrote:the engine has yet to get out once

Hmm

Jesus feckin' Christ, Timmy, there's more than enough penis to go around./catholic priest jokes

Okay, so, here's my issue with SM as it is;
No one knows what the fried hell they're doing with it. The wiki is hilariously out of date and seems to be intentionally so. The 'lol instability to satisfy my urge for <45 minute rounds' only exacerbated what is taken as a badmin masturbatory PR.
If it were an option to run concurrent or aside from the regular engines, such as what I'd seen on what was it, Delta? Great! All for that! Options are good! Or hell, even a primary, with the other two being options to set up if one wanted to do an EVA.
It's a bad engine for low pop rounds, due to the higher chance of no one knowing what the hell to do with it, and the added changes to it beyond even just the singuloose issue only exacerbates the issue. I like engineering, but when faced with this dross? Yeah, sorry, I'm setting up the solars. I wouldn't set this up even on a test server, because SM explodes. It doesn't collapse into a black hole or get supercharged into a tesla, it fething explodes.
Additionally, one argument that I heard for SM was 'o noes singuloose ebry round' or 'tesloose ebry round' is ultimately rendered moot, because now, a saboteur can just Pick and Choose what issue they want, by fiddling with the parameters. It's essentially 'what way do I want to destroy the station today' with the gas/energizer changes.
IMO, if it had been randomized, weighted towards whatever based on the position of Mars in the sky, that would be one thing. As it is, it's all of the pitfalls, none of the gameplay-side benefits.

cedarbridge wrote:but its just so stable right now you practically have to congaline people into the thing even with full emitters and no venting to get it to explode.

I've seen it loose a few times, and it just...didn't feel right. It felt like I was watching Into Darkness.

*Ahum*

I feel people are missing what I posted:

A PR increasing instability was merged 24 hours ago.

I was hesitant at first, but I'm loving the change personally. Engineers fuck with the engine all round, which is great. You should be able to optimize the engine through tinkering.

Edit: In response to the PR, I'm fine with that. I feel like the engine was a little too difficult to successfully sabotage. Engineers should have some means of recourse to prevent it from going critical, but it should be frantic.

I like it, good change.

I'm gonna drop here my idea from other thread.

Change the SM overload effect. Explosion and or singularity is just boring. I suggested a world-wide EMP wave that would drain all power from everything (except maybe AI core), bolting down all airlocks. But anything more subtle than pure destruction would be fun.

Lumbermancer wrote:I'm gonna drop here my idea from other thread.

Change the SM overload effect. Explosion and or singularity is just boring. I suggested a world-wide EMP wave that would drain all power from everything (except maybe AI core), bolting down all airlocks. But anything more subtle than pure destruction would be fun.

You're describing something similar to the Cascade that /vg/ is working on.

I miss the singularity being the only engine. However the people have spoken.

My biggest issue with the SM is it announces how close it is to blowing up thus ruining traitor ideas with the engine.

starmute wrote:I miss the singularity being the only engine. However the people have spoken.

My biggest issue with the SM is it announces how close it is to blowing up thus ruining traitor ideas with the engine.

I think the instability warning should be on the engineering channel.

CPTANT wrote:

starmute wrote:I miss the singularity being the only engine. However the people have spoken.

My biggest issue with the SM is it announces how close it is to blowing up thus ruining traitor ideas with the engine.

I think the instability warning should be on the engineering channel.

That's an excellent idea.

Tokiko2 wrote:

CPTANT wrote:

starmute wrote:I miss the singularity being the only engine. However the people have spoken.

My biggest issue with the SM is it announces how close it is to blowing up thus ruining traitor ideas with the engine.

I think the instability warning should be on the engineering channel.

That's an excellent idea.

Maybe add a check to see if there are any engineers? Otherwise +1

Didn't like the replacement for it happend so suddenly and entirely replaced the other 2. As someone who doesn't know how to use the SM if i try to learn I get the generic move outta the way and lemme do it right response like any science position.

Give engineers the warnings with the percentage total, and give a generic "Warning: Crystal Delamination Imminent" warning over the common channel when it hits 75% or so