Let's talk Double-Esword

[Armhulen]

Bottom post of the previous page:

Throw the baton, 50 50 I think

[Oldman Robustin]

75% block rate to non-energy attacks

100% reflect rate for energy stuff

I up'd the block rate from 50% to 75% a year ago because they were unused and an esword+chair was better in most situations than a double esword. Which was hilarious, but pretty dumb (if you still want to meme it up with a single esword, grab a chair/roman shield/riot shield, the block chance stacks)

Then dismemberment got added.

Then eswords being able to smash open doors/machinery/structures got added.

Now they're quite strong.

But Joan just removed leg dismemberment = stun, so its harder for a double memesword user to knock you down with the swords, meaning that a stun baton is a pretty fair match for the swords now.

I could bring the block rate down a tad, but I still think 50% was too low, 50% meant that most unarmed players were an even match for your 14TC "valid me" weapon.


Edit: The balance story does go 2 ways as well. We've added a ton of potent throwing weapons and shotguns are more common than ever. Shotguns are a great way to counteract RNG because its all but guaranteed that after 3-4 blasts enough of the pellets will have gone through to badly slow/wound them and leave them much more vulnerable to further attacks. Double esword users are completely reliant on being full speed so a bola/throwing tiles/thrown spear/etc. are great at fucking the sword user.

I don't think this playstyle is all bad, it creates a problem with a more nuanced solution than just "SHOOT HIM WITH TASER, HIT HIM WITH BATON". I feel the same way about hulk. I think stuff like the revolver and ebow are far more cancerous than a strong melee weapon that is incredibly loud and obvious to anyone nearby. I'll take on a sword user anyday over *POP**POP**DEAD* or *TCH**STUNNED*xINFINITY.

[ShadowDimentio]

Don't touch it, it's perfect.

[confused rock]

I call it the dual esword not double fuckin nerd

also just throw corpses at the esworder its not hard if he isn't already well into his murder rampage a sec officer can just flashbangarang

[cedarbridge]

Edit: The balance story does go 2 ways as well. We've added a ton of potent throwing weapons and shotguns are more common than ever. Shotguns are a great way to counteract RNG because its all but guaranteed that after 3-4 blasts enough of the pellets will have gone through to badly slow/wound them and leave them much more vulnerable to further attacks. Double esword users are completely reliant on being full speed so a bola/throwing tiles/thrown spear/etc. are great at fucking the sword user.

Not exactly.
https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... 69#p250469

[Armhulen]

but it's almost exactly. Spears, bolas, batons can now stun on throw... it actually makes throwing things at the desworder really strong.

[cedarbridge]

but it's almost exactly. Spears, bolas, batons can now stun on throw... it actually makes throwing things at the desworder really strong.

So the part where 1/5 bolas failed to get through block on a stationary target doesn't really scream "really strong" to me but maybe I just have different standards for robustness.

[Armhulen]

i missed the bola part and I hate that it can block bolas. I thought i read earlier in the thread that even if it blocks the bola the bola goes on? if that's the case, spears and pneumatic cannon are still decent

[Steelpoint]

Firstly I just tested in game and both Spears and Floor Tiles are also subject to the 75% block rule.

Secondly whoever said Bolas still apply their effect even if the sword blocks it is patently wrong, as I demonstrated during my testing (see prior page) the Bola's fall under the same 75% chance to block rule.

Also I really question the validity of using Shotguns on Duel Esword users, in the best case scenario it took me on average four to five point blank shots to down a user and that's assuming I'm allowed to remain within two tiles of the target for all the shots AND all my pellets hit their mark. Admittedly this was with the Rubber Shot rounds and not lethal rounds, perhaps lethal ammo has a different outcome?

[ShadowDimentio]

Acquire skill

[kevinz000]

There isn't much to say really. If you can't defeat a dual esword murderboner then:

get gud

[Steelpoint]

Skill seems to be code word for luck, and a lot of it.

[ShadowDimentio]

Protip: There's no luck involved in not engaging the dual esworder by running away.

People forget that running away is a thing you can do in this game.

[Steelpoint]

Protip: There's no luck involved in not engaging the dual esworder by running away.

People forget that running away is a thing you can do in this game.

Except for the one group of people who's job is to not run away from danger.

I don't mind a challenge, but a good challenge needs to have some way to possibly overcome it.

Right now that seems to be having a lot of luck on you're side. Either by hoping the person is not wearing any form of headware that blocks their eyes or by hoping you can bypass their 75% block rate with your Stun Baton.

The only weapon Security has that is marginally effective on a sword user is the DragNET amusingly, though you have to aim in front of the user and hope they run over the weapon.

[ShadowDimentio]

>Engaging an obstacle when you know you don't have gear needed to overcome it

Steel you're a fucking idiot and have nobody to blame but yourself if you do this. Make a flamethrower and get good you filthy casual.

[Doctor Pork]

Make it run off a battery and have it be susceptible to ion attacks.

[cedarbridge]

>Engaging an obstacle when you know you don't have gear needed to overcome it

Steel you're a fucking idiot and have nobody to blame but yourself if you do this. Make a flamethrower and get good you filthy casual.

>you don't have the gear needed
>actively arguing against providing gear needed to combat it

You can stop now.

[ShadowDimentio]

Yeah because there's more than a few things that'll fuck an esworders life up if you throw it at them, you lot are arguing from the stupid position of "Well WHAT IF they don't have that stuff?"

Well then you get dunked. Do not pass go.

[Armhulen]

it's not like the desworder is going to sprout a third arm and grab the spear you threw at him, so I dunno. I think the real cancer is that they can unsheathe it and lob a leg off right away, and then you're slowed and there's no hope. Seriously, this whole conversation has been about a desworder who runs around the station with it on at all times.

[Steelpoint]

Do Double Energy Swords, and Energy Swords in general, still have that flat chance to stun someone per attack? I recall the swords had around a 50% chance to outright stun someone if you hit them irrespective of any present armour or counter defence.

I'll admit that the best tool Security has against a Double Energy Sword user is the DragNET. If you can successfully bait the user into walking over a trap then the situation is significantly less lethal to the Security side, although they are still dangrous but at least they now move at a walking pace.

Interestingly on more testing any weapon that has to physically hit the Sword user is subject to the 75% rule, including spears, bolas, tiles and the kitchen sink.

[cedarbridge]

Yeah because there's more than a few things that'll fuck an esworders life up if you throw it at them, you lot are arguing from the stupid position of "Well WHAT IF they don't have that stuff?"

Well then you get dunked. Do not pass go.

Exciting and interesting gameplay.

"How do I counter X?"
"You don't."

[J_Madison]

I up'd the block rate from 50% to 75% a year ago because they were unused and an esword+chair was better in most situations than a double esword. Which was hilarious, but pretty dumb (if you still want to meme it up with a single esword, grab a chair/roman shield/riot shield, the block chance stacks)

That's incompetent game balancing and understanding of mechanics, especially because you're an experienced player, you should have known better. It also seems you didn't do any playtesting to see just how ridiculous off a buff you gave it.
You've made the only counters unconventional, non-sec weapons which totally defeats the point of alternative weapons and the history of SS13 combat.

The block rate is to the point that full magazines of riot shotguns aren't going to knock down or kill (buckshot) their target.

https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=8959

[kevinz000]

and i'm here wondering how any of you can be considered security mains if you can't take down a dualsworder with security equipment
flashbang. pepperspray. energybola. shotguns. temperature gun. fuck it, use a stunbaton. that doesn't work, improvise and find a body to toss at them. det's revolver if you can get one.
emphasis on the flashbang.

[DemonFiren]

and i'm here wondering how any of you can be considered security mains if you can't take down a dualsworder with security equipment
flashbang. pepperspray. energybola. shotguns. temperature gun. fuck it, use a stunbaton. that doesn't work, improvise and find a body to toss at them. det's revolver if you can get one.
emphasis on the flashbang.

Bolas especially.
I make sure to always bring those on patrol, and I'm one of the least robust players in existence.

[Steelpoint]

You're better off asking for a DragNET since normal bolas are subject to the 75% block rate.

[DemonFiren]

Are energy bolas normal?

[Steelpoint]

Are energy bolas normal?

No they get a 100% deflection, but you can fire them onto the ground in front of the user and they'll function as a normal bear trap.

Its the best way to immobilise a Esword user.

[kevinz000]

use a fucking flashbang, traitors only grab protection if i'm on security so you should be fine.
:HONK:

[Steelpoint]

Fair point but flashbang protection is not very difficult to acquire.

Also it varies depending on who is using the DEsword, if its someone who's given up any pretence of subterfuge then its a very viable tactic, but if its a more subtle player using the Esword sparingly (akin to whiping it out and sneak attacking, not running around with it out all the time) then its usefulness is diminished.

At the end of the day my position is more that I would enjoy if the Stun Baton was more reliable in hitting a Sword user. That's all I really have to say on the issue.

[Lumbermancer]

>Engaging an obstacle when you know you don't have gear needed to overcome it

Except we had gear to overcome it but someone decided to take it away, which is the whole point of this fucking thread. You're not welcome here anymore, go or I'll ban you.

[Super Aggro Crag]

Somebody code a chemical that chemists can make that destabilizes energy swords and can coat a weapon to pass through the block when you throw it.

[oranges]

Yeah because there's more than a few things that'll fuck an esworders life up if you throw it at them, you lot are arguing from the stupid position of "Well WHAT IF they don't have that stuff?"

Well then you get dunked. Do not pass go.

Exciting and interesting gameplay.

"How do I counter X?"
"You don't."

>how do I counter x
>list of things to counter it with
>but what if I don't have them
>you die
>wow that's so boring an unoriginal wewowowowowow why can't we nerf it?

What the fuck are you taking

[Whoisthere]

Okay so if spears, bolas and other shit are mostly blocked, I agree that double esword should be nerfed, mainly because only having a flamethrower/dragnet/beartrap capable of stopping desword noslips sunglasses is probably not good but then also:

My point, the one I am pushing forward, is that I belive Security should have a single item that can hard counter a Duel-Energy Sword, and on the side the Energy Shield.

Why? Sec shouldn't be a hard counter to everything.

[Lumbermancer]

>list of things to counter it with

Floor tiles are hardly a counter, more like fighting chance.

[captain sawrge]

Don't remove it because it's strong but remove it because it's incredibly fucking dull

[Doctor Pork]

Don't remove it because it's strong but remove it because it's incredibly fucking dull

Speaking of boring shit tator items, has anyone heard of a little ditty called an Ebow?

[InsaneHyena]

> wtf, I can't kill an antag in single combat with no preparation, when he has a tool designed for overt murder. Please nerf traitor until they are as strong as a single sec officer!
Really makes you think, doesn't it?

[Lumbermancer]

I was prepared, I had stun baton.

[Incomptinence]

I don't question that powerful antagonist weapons are important to the game.

I don't see why near immunity to attacks with the only unblocked counters being pepper spray and flashbangs both of which you are made near immune to under current code by looting like one ambushed luckless officer is superior to past powerful weapons.
The best counter proposed is probably syringe guns which we also gave a perfect counter in hardsuits mind. At that number of closed avenues it's pretty much justified suicide bomb time.

Like holoparas had a co op charm and while the blocked damage sources at least were guaranteed to transmit in part to the host.

All this is making near perfect assassination tools like parapens/parasting look fair and balanced really I think this is the weakest iteration of the eb and flow of antag power yet.

It will hurt a random coder's feelings and be struck down to popular support to be replaced by something worse yet again because we need these goofs to DRIVE ROUNDS.

[InsaneHyena]

I was prepared, I had stun baton.

Honestly have no idea if you're being sarcastic or delusional.

[Incomptinence]

Since flashes serving as a same sort melee counter role were apparently never good enough to be carried by anyone making borgs INVINCIIIIIIBLE they have a bit of a point.

The sword can be put away at any time leaving them hands free to use a plethora of guns gained by killing people when near immune to any and all guns. We have come full circle and made traitors beyond secborg durable and still maintaining full human flexibility.

[Doctor Pork]

> wtf, I can't kill an antag in single combat with no preparation, when he has a tool designed for overt murder. Please nerf traitor until they are as strong as a single sec officer!

more like tool designed to be a boring waste of time for everyone else involved until the person with the murderboner DOES die and the shuttle is immediately called at earliest availability while everyone else spends the round getting their limbs put back on including the people who were screaming their codewords all the way into crit
OR
they kill everyone (including the powerless AI because lolenergyturrets), recall the shuttle 8 times, and camp central primary hallway for new arrivals until admins call it
OR
get dunked immediately and all of a sudden Johnny McValidhunt has their very own x2esword to fuck up all the other people trying to be a traitor, if traitor see options one and two

Kor said it best himself.

It's a dumb weapon propagating dumb cancerous playstyle

The point is that there is ZERO way x2esword amounts to a fun round DURING TRAITOR for anyone but the murderboner. However, I've seen plenty of crazy stuff happen with Nukies thats pretty entertaining. Maybe just make it a nuke ops only deal?

Edit: changed a few things to make more sense, cut me slack im tired

[Lumbermancer]

I was prepared, I had stun baton.

Honestly have no idea if you're being sarcastic or delusional.

Oh you mean like how it used to be a counter but is not anymore?

[Oldman Robustin]

Maybe some changes can be made for the throwing weapons then but I don't know how anyone can complain about the 2x esword "playstyle" when you have alternatives like the revolver and ebow. I'd watch a 2x esword traitor any day over *tiny sprite appears in hand**click**other guy is dead*.

[onleavedontatme]

Batons used to go through shields because they were coded before shields were, and therefore never took them into account.

Now they can be blocked by shields. It wasn't a balance change so much as a bug fix.

[Doctor Pork]

Maybe some changes can be made for the throwing weapons then but I don't know how anyone can complain about the 2x esword "playstyle" when you have alternatives like the revolver and ebow. I'd watch a 2x esword traitor any day over *tiny sprite appears in hand**click**other guy is dead*.

The problem isnt just x2esword. Ebow is second worst because lolinfiniteharmingstun, and at least the revolver you have to reload and you can can get tazed/batoned/lasered with both giving you a big incentive to not be a huge cock when using them.

[InsaneHyena]

I want to roflstomp traitors, who invested into fighting, with my default gear just by myself

Your every post is like a bad joke. Do you even realize how absolutely ridiculous you sound? And while I'm at it, there's also this guy.

Speaking of boring shit tator items, has anyone heard of a little ditty called an Ebow?

> Let's remove double eswords, traitors don't melee weapons.
> Let's remove ebows, traitors don't need stuns.
What's next? Let's remove parapen, being suddenly rendered helpless is unfun and boring. Let's remove bombs, they're just a tool to remove people from the round and forcecall the shuttle. Let's remove singulo beacon, it encourages murderboner.

[Doctor Pork]

> Let's remove double eswords, traitors don't melee weapons.
> Let's remove ebows, traitors don't need stuns.
What's next? Let's remove parapen, being suddenly rendered helpless is unfun and boring. Let's remove bombs, they're just a tool to remove people from the round and forcecall the shuttle. Let's remove singulo beacon, it encourages murderboner.

Dank strawman, but I'll go ahead anyway.

No they don't need melee weapons with an insane reflect percentage and melee deflection.
No they don't need a infinite stungun that causes fucking rad damage.

Parapens are good, because you actually have to do some work to get close and have some sort of plan. Bombs are fun because they do a lot of damage while allowing the perpetrator to get away anonymously. Singulo beacon actually makes the engine getting out not the same boring shit that happens every time someone lets the engine out and if the Singulo is out that's already a guaranteed shuttle call unless engineering is quick and competent.

You're arguing that because some other shitty items exist we cant remove any of them while also arguing that if we remove the shitty ones we need to also remove any and all of the good ones. And frankly that's pretty fucking delusional.

[InsaneHyena]

No they don't need melee weapons with an insane reflect percentage and melee deflection.

Yes, they do, they're alone against the whole station. And if they have double esword, chances are they don't have other tools against the hordes of validhunting assistants out to get them.

No they don't need a infinite stungun that causes fucking rad damage.

Yes, they do, it's literally a slightly improved taser.

Antagonists do not exist to be on the equal ground with the rest of the crew.

[Doctor Pork]

No they don't need melee weapons with an insane reflect percentage and melee deflection.

Yes, they do, they're alone against the whole station. And if they have double esword, chances are they don't have other tools against the hordes of validhunting assistants out to get them.

No they don't need a infinite stungun that causes fucking rad damage.

Yes, they do, it's literally a slightly improved taser.

Antagonists do not exist to be on the equal ground with the rest of the crew.

BUT MUH HORDES OF GREYSHIRTS BUT MUH INFINITE REGEN 3 STORED SHOT HARM TASER

They already have 20TC to spend on guns, ammo, and hardsuits, tools, and not to mention implants. How much handholding do we have to do for traitors? Git fucking gud. If you want to go loud that's fine, if you need a unbalanced crutch just to get funky with your murderbone maybe you should toggle off traitor.

We shouldn't hugbox murderboners to make them feel like special little unkillable all powerful snowflakes. If that was a thing everybody wanted every round would be a wizard round.

[Steelpoint]

But in the same notion Traitors don't need items that do most of the work for them.

Bombs, singulo beacons and parapens are good items because they all require preparation and effort to use. Weapons like the Revolver or Sketchin are good because they have a limited ammo supply and don't confer insane defensive bonuses onto the user.

I dislike Double Eswords because of the insane defense they grant the user. Ebows I also dislike because its a literal infinte pocket stun with no warning and minimal effort required to employ.

A powerful item should either be very dangerous to use (see revolver due to it attracting a lot of attention and not granting any defence) or require a moderate amount of effort to employ (see singulo beacon that requires the user to hide a beacon somewhere on the station AND then somehow cause the Singlo to be released)