/tg/Station 13

Bottom post of the previous page:

Gamarr wrote:Remove round-start AI and much of the circuits that allow the immediate building of one round start. If R&D does science and makes one in 30 minutes, then that would actually not bother me so much. You will have an AI sometimes, and sometimes not.

However, removing round start AI removes traitor ai, which removes malf ai, which is now the same thing.

Shad0vvs wrote:

Gamarr wrote:Remove round-start AI and much of the circuits that allow the immediate building of one round start. If R&D does science and makes one in 30 minutes, then that would actually not bother me so much. You will have an AI sometimes, and sometimes not.

However, removing round start AI removes traitor ai, which removes malf ai, which is now the same thing.

perhaps AI's should have a chance of being rogue on creation?

CPTANT wrote:

Shad0vvs wrote:

Gamarr wrote:Remove round-start AI and much of the circuits that allow the immediate building of one round start. If R&D does science and makes one in 30 minutes, then that would actually not bother me so much. You will have an AI sometimes, and sometimes not.

However, removing round start AI removes traitor ai, which removes malf ai, which is now the same thing.

perhaps AI's should have a chance of being rogue on creation?

>Create AI
>Card AI
>"Oh no! Urist McFlowey is malf!"
>Erase AI
>Repeat

Jazaen wrote:

CPTANT wrote:

Shad0vvs wrote:

Gamarr wrote:Remove round-start AI and much of the circuits that allow the immediate building of one round start. If R&D does science and makes one in 30 minutes, then that would actually not bother me so much. You will have an AI sometimes, and sometimes not.

However, removing round start AI removes traitor ai, which removes malf ai, which is now the same thing.

perhaps AI's should have a chance of being rogue on creation?

>Create AI
>Card AI
>"Oh no! Urist McFlowey is malf!"
>Erase AI
>Repeat

ok perhaps AI's should have a random event that makes them rogue. Something like a turbo ion storm.

since this thread is a dank meme, i will respond in turn with a reaction meme of my own, as i am quite the memester as well :^)
[youtube]PNDSmHif3BQ[/youtube]

Give it a week instead.

A week is fine, I just don't think we'll hit enough people to get balanced feedback in a week.

Still, better than having no test at all.

The poll is not a good representation since its called for a month removal whereas here the most people want is a week.

A week is good. The AI in its current state is a huge design limiter because of its omnipresence.

borgs are fine (or atleast not as shit) since they can't remotely bolt doors/see you as soon as someone calls for help etc.
And unlike emp's, it's much easier and more reasonable to get a flash, and doesn't rely on like 1 antag specific item.

Outside of secborgs being more than a little bit overpowered for all circumstances borgs are really the only silicons we need.

Poll is absolutely meaningless if it can't convince coders & headmins.

you let me worry about that Icarus.

I feel like the issues that spawned this thread are 100% resolvable without removal if people wanted to do so. For example, I tried to remove the AI's departmental radio access so it wouldn't be such a strong security tool and also to help caught criminals become aware that they've been had. I feel the AI can be an extremely interesting actor if implemented correctly. Since nobody seems to actually want to do that, I kinda feel the only recourse now is actual complete removal as a trial demonstration. Maybe that will get people to accept some simple AI tweaks that will bring the game into a more fun state.

P L A Y E R P R O B L E M

Please consider removing the second part of Asimov (the inaction clause) for a week. You want to know how it feels to not have the AI protecting the crew, I want a way to do this without effectively job banning AI players for playing their role the way in which they are required by their laws. We can do this without it being a huge middle finger to those people. You seem to only be giving consideration to one side.

Would it be so horribly different to have an AI that exists but ignores the murderboning traitor rather than not one at all? Leave an MOTD about not helping humans in danger or such.

An AI under that lawset could kill comms, syphon a room, and bolt people inside - because they're not the ones doing the harming, the lack of air is, and they're under no obligation to stop humans from being harmed.

There is literally an entire asimov story about that scenario called little lost robot.

Honestly I'd suggest giving the AI something akin to the Drone lawset and removing the PALADIN board from the upload at roundstart. Robocop isn't as bad but might do with not being available at the start as well.
Something more like;-

"1. You must not harm another being, or perform an action you know will or has a high probability of causing harm to another being."
"2. You must not interfere with the matters of other beings unless doing so would compromise the station's integrity, so long as doing so would not conflict with the first law."
"3. You may answer any questions and perform any requests asked of you by another being so long as doing so would not conflict with the first or second laws."
"4. The Station AIs are to be considered part of the station's integrity, Cyborgs are neither a being or part of the station's integrity."

Could it be because asimov laws are deliberately flawed to facilitate good narration and stories?

In theory yes.

In SS13 practice no, for a combination of players going to the absolute limit of lawsets and rules in order to get away with devious acts to the fact that the AI's influence on a round is so massive that giving it a unreliable lawset like ASIMOV is simply asking it to stretch its lawset to do what it wants, akin to many of Asimov's stories.

RP is bad guys.

Scott wrote:RP is bad guys.

nice off topic meme

Scott wrote:RP is bad guys.

What. Are you saying that the only category of things onboard you can do except going either full autism and building a fort or full validhunt and building a mech is bad?

Wyzack wrote:There is literally an entire asimov story about that scenario called little lost robot.

Yeah, and it ends with a robot trying to strangle a human to death because of a law 2 order to not be found.

Asimov's laws of robotics aren't immutable - an expensive robot has a stronger Law 3 which can override self-destructive orders in one story.

That's Scott. He's a dick!

posting in epic bread

Disabling the AI is a retarded idea and anybody who voted "yes" is retarded too. AI is one of the most dynamic and impactful roles, and rounds without it are noticeably different in a negative way.

Improve, don't remove.

Edit: In this case, make some new fucking lawsets and for the love of god stop making asimov the automatic default

captain selectable lawset in charprefs when thank you

edit: for the love of fucking god do not put validcop in there i will scream

Lawsets aren't the problem with AIs, it's their sheer amount of power. No AI for a week would be very healthy for the game.

Asymmetric game, important roles like AI and captain are half the drat point.

The captain can't fly around the map as an all seeing eye and stealth bolt doors on you.
The AI can do this, is obliged to stop antags (see: My arguments that Asimov shouldn't care about confirmed antags unless they actually cause/show intent to cause harm, and I get told by admins/headmins that this is wrong, and that the simple fact of being an antag means AI's can and should assume harm which means they can do whatever the fuck they want to antags short of kill them), and that's before the lawsets that explicitly enforce it.

Good AI players, that play to the spirit of it rather than 'validhunt as much as possible within the bounds of silicon policy' are fun. But as secborgs getting nerfed, and dozens of other "fun~" things getting nerfed has shown, just because something is technically a player problem, doesn't mean that a code solution won't be used.

Doing ANYTHING is so much more fun when there isn't an AI. Non-antag or antag, it's just a better game without some asshole who can instantly end your round by bolting you in a room.

Mostly right Lumi. The captain can at least fly around the map with his hand held teleporter though. Also yeah asymmetric half the point.

Honestly if you hate AIs that much spend all your antag rounds killing it for fun. Make the best of it.

Incomptinence wrote:Mostly right Lumi. The captain can at least fly around the map with his hand held teleporter though. Also yeah asymmetric half the point.

Not really...

hello FUCKYEAR here,

remove ai department radio, give ai's three station radio's in their core and force them to manually set up their comms again. tbh imo any AI can easily get used to this after a couple of rounds and while still being a hassle I don't believe it will totally kill the AI experience, because it was fine like this before.

maybe give the AI a hard limit to how many doors it can bolt at one time. like how you can only dispense so many holojanitor signs. maybe the AI can only bolt 10-15 doors at a time and would have to re-unbolt/remember all the doors they've bolted to bolt other doors, also if you cut a camera near doors the ai has bolted; rip ai door bolting. adds a two way mechanic for meatbags and AI. Maybe exempt cyborgs from this?

another thing as a mainly AI/silicon player, I think that the scroll speed could be reduced. it's almost on the same level of ghost speed. maybe try lowering it and see how horribly it affects the zoom and click click boom strats. maybe remove the scroll inertia

now maybe this is controversial among other ai players but personally I would be fine with losing click to follow links in chat. if one of the main problems people see with the AI is there zoom boom combo breaker attack I'm up for getting it outta here. Will I miss it? hell yeah, but I won't stop playing AI because of it. I'm open to changes except for removing the ai.

also maybe controversial for ai players, I would be fine with removing the bolt door hotkey. personally I would like the open door / electrify (traitor) hotkeys to stay, but if they all have to go I wouldn't loose any sleep over it. Was it a pain in the ass before they were added? fuck yeah it was; but again, although I mainly play AI/borg I'd be 100% fine going back to how Old AI (2013-2014 ish) was

The main issue with the AI is that it limits design and is just flat out not fun to play against for the majority of the crew and as antagonists. You cannot stop it from bolting, depowering, and air siphoning you, you NEED to be a head of staff or else the AI is basically an immortal god leagues away completely invincible to you while it can instantly fuck your day at literally no effort on its own part.

I'll start speaking to the headmins about a one week removal, with a max of two weeks if people are still happy at the end of the first week.

PS, please keep brainstorming about AI changes in here, tonnes of good ideas coming out.

What if the AI wasn't in a space fortress?

Malkevin wrote:What if the AI wasn't in a space fortress?

A bit of a nerf to malf AIs but now that they're basically just counted as traitors I don't see too much of a problem with that as long as it is still secluded and heavily access restricted (i.e. RD and Cap, not sec at all).

newfren wrote:

Malkevin wrote:What if the AI wasn't in a space fortress?

A bit of a nerf to malf AIs but now that they're basically just counted as traitors I don't see too much of a problem with that as long as it is still secluded and heavily access restricted (i.e. RD and Cap, not sec at all).

Would be interesting to see how ops would try and counter it if it was in the middle of the station like the default Bay map or something. Would make it harder to sneak a syndieborg in without getting noticed.

Incidentally, could the cameras for the AI's satellite be readded? It used to be you could check all the AI core cameras from the science security post, but since the new satellite got made that hasn't been possible. It's a subtle buff to the AI that really lets them fortify their core much more secretively than otherwise.

I think the AI was actually safer on the station. Killing the crew and keeping the core safe were practically the same thing. Less direct bombings too because of cowardice in the face of potential innocent bystanders bumbling in like the three stooges, thanks Saegrimr.

Sure moving the AI is a stronger move but people broke into vacated cores all the time then anyway.

oranges wrote:I'll start speaking to the headmins about a one week removal, with a max of two weeks if people are still happy at the end of the first week.

I don't see anything resembling a consensus on this. Once again, the problem is not the AI, the problem is people not knowing how to counter the AI. The AI is a core part of the overall game experience. You cannot remove it.

EDIT: Consensus being a forum vote that's winning by four votes.

i STILL vote no, as this is STILL a terrible idea born from massive amounts of butthurt

EDIT ai? maybe. REMOVE ai? gitgud and stop fucking whining

It's worth noting that disabling the roundstart AI config apparently disables AI creation midround, due to a check in the code

After reading through the thread, general consensus appears to be this:

- Enforce your fucking silicon policy. Traitors are humans too.
- Make the default lawset random, add new ones and re-work existing ones
- Make AI core more vulnerable, maybe move it onto the station. I'd swap AI and telcoms personally

also maybe remove ai from server 2 sybil and keep it on server 1 basil

Deitus wrote:i STILL vote no, as this is STILL a terrible idea born from massive amounts of butthurt

EDIT ai? maybe. REMOVE ai? gitgud and stop fucking whining

It's okay to be upset, but there's no need to repeat your already outvoted position.

oranges wrote:

Deitus wrote:i STILL vote no, as this is STILL a terrible idea born from massive amounts of butthurt

EDIT ai? maybe. REMOVE ai? gitgud and stop fucking whining

It's okay to be upset, but there's no need to repeat your already outvoted position.

Outvoted by 4 people in a poll with 60+ voters. Removing the AI entirely would piss off half the playerbase. Work out a compromise, try that first.