/tg/Station 13

Posted: **Tue Jan 12, 2016 3:58 pm**

Bottom post of the previous page:

Are you serious? We finally get an actually dangerous virus, and everyone secrets enough

to cure their own heal viruses. I have never used this as a Traitor, but I have combated its use as a Virologist. People were not afraid to take my injections. They did not threaten to lynch me (well, only one did) for doing my job, and I did not feel as if I wasted my round making something powerful for the crew to enjoy only for nearly everyone to decline.

They WANTED my help. They SCREAMED for my help. They came to ME to take MY big, scary needle. Even the clown player, which is normally a greifing pain in the butt, laid there barfing and dying at my door. I drug her to my lab and used her to produce the vaccine. I did what very few virologist players actually get to do: THEIR ACTUAL JOB. It was FUN. I am normally hated and shunned just for existing. That round, Medbay was a disaster zone and a partial graveyard. I like to think that without there being a virologist that round, most of those people would have died, some may have died several times over.

It is difficult to have fun as a Virologist player when everyone suspects and distrusts you, when they pass up powerful beneficial viruses because they do not want "aids". Virologist players finally have a chance to provide a meaningful contribution to the crew, and you want to take that away. Disgusting.

Posted: **Tue Jan 12, 2016 4:10 pm**

So if I'm right then this is a airborne disease?

In my opinion I think the problem here is not the virus but that how poorly our infection system works.

Correct me if I'm wrong but wearing standard internals won't fully protect you from a airborne infection am I right? If someone takes reasonable steps to isolate their air supply then there should be no cause for infection.

Posted: **Tue Jan 12, 2016 4:17 pm**

Gun Hog wrote:Are you serious? We finally get an actually dangerous virus, and everyone secrets enough to cure their own heal viruses. I have never used this as a Traitor, but I have combated its use as a Virologist. People were not afraid to take my injections. They did not threaten to lynch me (well, only one did) for doing my job, and I did not feel as if I wasted my round making something powerful for the crew to enjoy only for nearly everyone to decline.

They WANTED my help. They SCREAMED for my help. They came to ME to take MY big, scary needle. Even the clown player, which is normally a greifing pain in the butt, laid there barfing and dying at my door. I drug her to my lab and used her to produce the vaccine. I did what very few virologist players actually get to do: THEIR ACTUAL JOB. It was FUN. I am normally hated and shunned just for existing. That round, Medbay was a disaster zone and a partial graveyard. I like to think that without there being a virologist that round, most of those people would have died, some may have died several times over.

It is difficult to have fun as a Virologist player when everyone suspects and distrusts you, when they pass up powerful beneficial viruses because they do not want "aids". Virologist players finally have a chance to provide a meaningful contribution to the crew, and you want to take that away. Disgusting.

Posted: **Tue Jan 12, 2016 4:19 pm**

Steelpoint wrote:So if I'm right then this is a airborne disease?

In my opinion I think the problem here is not the virus but that how poorly our infection system works.

Correct me if I'm wrong but wearing standard internals won't fully protect you from a airborne infection am I right? If someone takes reasonable steps to isolate their air supply then there should be no cause for infection.

They do.

Here's the vectors of infection for Fungal TB:
Airborne - countered by internals or sterile masks.
Consumption - cannot be countered.
Contact with infected blood pools - countered by wearing sealed clothing (biosuits, spacesuits, hardsuits).

Posted: **Tue Jan 12, 2016 4:20 pm**

I guess remove infected blood as vector, and it should be reasonably balanced?

Posted: **Tue Jan 12, 2016 4:21 pm**

So why is this virus so devastating? I know I've failed to play the game a lot recently but wouldn't people just put on their internals the moment the word "virus" was uttered into a radio?

Even if its a combination of Airborne and other transmissions like Blood you just need to exercise caution. If you run around without Internals, get infected, then die from it then you have no one to blame but yourself for being careless.

Posted: **Tue Jan 12, 2016 4:24 pm**

What does consumption even mean? If its just there as a ggnore way of infecting everyone no matter what then I concede that.

If that's the case then remove the consumption portion and go from there.

Posted: **Tue Jan 12, 2016 4:25 pm**

As far as I know it means "you ingested something containing the virus". That is to say, it went directly into your body through your mouth and stomach.

Posted: **Tue Jan 12, 2016 4:27 pm**

But wouldn't that be impossible considering the big gas mask/mask blocking your mouth?

My point stands, if 'consumption' is just a ggnore way of infecting you no matter what then it should be removed ASAP and damn the feature freeze.

The Blood and Airborne transmissions seem fine for a 20tc item, especially since the Traitor themselves also has to risk infection.

Posted: **Tue Jan 12, 2016 4:30 pm**

According to the code tuberculosis's only infection vector appears to be airborne.

Posted: **Tue Jan 12, 2016 4:36 pm**

Well, if you eat something the virus is sprinkled all over or drink a bottle full of infected blood, you deserve the guaranteed infection.

There's no way of preventing infection if you consume it. That was the point, I believe.

Posted: **Tue Jan 12, 2016 4:38 pm**

None of that changes the fact that the virus is simply bullshit and I'll face smash that "cure all diseases button" if it's ever released ever.

Posted: **Tue Jan 12, 2016 4:48 pm**

remember when one of the major jobs of the CMO was to coordinate the treatment of virus outbreaks? remember when people had a reason to ever use biosuits? just because people are incompetent doesn't mean the game has to be designed to cater to the rampant incompetence. seriously, doctors in the black plague era put forth more effort than some rounds I see

Posted: **Tue Jan 12, 2016 4:49 pm**

NikNakFlak wrote:None of that changes the fact that the virus is simply bullshit and I'll face smash that "cure all diseases button" if it's ever released ever.

How about "it is apparently meant to be airborne-only spread and every single crew member spawns with an internals box, plus gasmasks are available literally everywhere"?

Posted: **Tue Jan 12, 2016 4:52 pm**

DemonFiren wrote:I guess remove infected blood as vector, and it should be reasonably balanced?

Actually, I can't. Well, can and can't.

Can't - smart people can still spray/splash infected blood and infect people that walk near it.
Can - remove the virus causing blood vomiting.

Steelpoint wrote:So why is this virus so devastating? I know I've failed to play the game a lot recently but wouldn't people just put on their internals the moment the word "virus" was uttered into a radio?

Even if its a combination of Airborne and other transmissions like Blood you just need to exercise caution. If you run around without Internals, get infected, then die from it then you have no one to blame but yourself for being careless.

Blood splatters and blood vomiting cause mass infection since people run around in public during a pandemic and get themselves infected, rather than secluding themselves to safe environments.

Steelpoint wrote:What does consumption even mean? If its just there as a ggnore way of infecting everyone no matter what then I concede that.

If that's the case then remove the consumption portion and go from there.

DemonFiren wrote:As far as I know it means "you ingested something containing the virus". That is to say, it went directly into your body through your mouth and stomach.

Correct, consumption involves getting the vector into your body in some way. By food, drink, injection, blood donation, being shot by a infected dart/syringe.

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I think the biggest factor must be the blood vomiting, which causes landmines of infection in the form of blood splatters on the floor (which the janitor should be cleaning up. that's why he has a biosuit).

This quite accurately reflects the mass panic people have during a bioterror attack and reminds me of the corrupted blood incident in WoW. It's really interesting to see how a simple shout over the radio has most people (that are unaware of what actually do to) charge into public locations where they're more likely to be infected than to lock down their workplaces and create a containment plan.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corrupted_Blood_incident

Posted: **Tue Jan 12, 2016 5:03 pm**

If this goes then I would like to see viro buffed to compensate, it is piss weak right now

Posted: **Tue Jan 12, 2016 5:36 pm**

I find it most amusing is that the reason this is a problem is due to a combination of general player incompetence as well as the failure for several roles to do their job.

This is the one time for jobs like the CMO and Virology (medbay in general) as well as the Janitor to shine, yet they seem to be bumbling around until the admins decide to erase the virus.

What do you expect is going to happen when the few jobs that can directly counter the infection are utterly incompetent?

Posted: **Tue Jan 12, 2016 5:43 pm**

I'm almost willing to say this is the medical equilivant of Security failing to catch a idiot murderboner who proceeds to wipe out half the station, where in people rush out to fight the traitor only for them to get cut down.

Not even subtle, he'll be screaming on the radio every twenty seconds yet half the crew will ignore him or walk into him unprepared.

Posted: **Tue Jan 12, 2016 5:47 pm**

It's not incompetency out of laziness though.

It's incompetence from inexperience.

Actual round ending diseases have been gone for a long time, and most of the playerbase doesn't know how to handle it if and when one does show up

I for one welcome the return of something dangerous like this.

Posted: **Tue Jan 12, 2016 5:50 pm**

True.

I'd say let it stay for now and wait for people to adapt to it, viral infections were very rare even in the past let alone today.

Posted: **Tue Jan 12, 2016 5:54 pm**

If we're gonna have round ending diseases they should come from random events and maybe viro work.

Having a lazy "station crisis" button for traitors isnt good, its why macrobombs are out.

I'm sure you had fun curing an out ourbreak but would you have fun doing that every round? Would the victims?

Posted: **Tue Jan 12, 2016 6:10 pm**

Takeguru wrote:It's not incompetency out of laziness though.

It's incompetence from inexperience.

Actual round ending diseases have been gone for a long time, and most of the playerbase doesn't know how to handle it if and when one does show up

I for one welcome the return of something dangerous like this.

I like this virus a lot.

My argument would follow along with the "Incompetence from inexperience" statement. Why aren't CMO's in the round, players who are "confident enough to know everything about medical

", declaring a state of emergency and telling everyone to stay indoors / equip internals / have AI open eva / ect.

Gun Hog has it right when he says this is piss easy to cure /if/ you know what you are doing. And WJ is right when he says that this actually gives virologists something FUN to do that isn't "oh hey i made a stim/heal virus CMO please endorse it so people use it"

If you're angry about being laid low by F.T. then encourage others to be more knowledgeable in how they handle themselves with the disease. Don't immediately jump on the remove kebab option.

Posted: **Tue Jan 12, 2016 6:23 pm**

I was a traitor in that round J mad decided to unleash shit.

>plant a macrobomb by medbay
>frame the chaplain
>go afk for maybe 8 minutes
>come back and I'm passed out on the floor unconscious, vomiting blood
>get to medbay
>suicide after 10 minutes of people trying to fix me

This is goon levels of retarded virus'.

Posted: **Tue Jan 12, 2016 6:50 pm**

To be clear, I'm generally against traitors having easy-mode versions of stuff that can be gotten from the station, which includes tuberculosis as well as stuff like syndicate implants, mulligans and even EMP kits, and if I had my way it'd all be removed.

That said, the virus itself is not a problem.

Posted: **Tue Jan 12, 2016 8:15 pm**

Having a round fucking virus making ONE JOB fun does not make it a good idea.

That's the same logic as people macrobombing the shit out of the station and one engineer screaming 'we can rebuild!' while the rest of the crew is stuck in the parts of the station that won't kill them for the next 30-60 minutes.

And as I said before, regular viro made viruses are pleny strong enough as is - if youre only releasing 1 virus instead of a dozen you're simply doing it wrong.
The only issue with making custom viruses is how much time goes into doing it.
In that regard, this is identical to macrobombs vs tank bombs - you can ass fuck the station with 6 tank bombs, but that takes time and effort. Macro bombs canbe done by anyone, anwhere, and requires zero effort or time.

This is dumb.

Posted: **Tue Jan 12, 2016 8:29 pm**

lumipharon wrote:Having a round fucking virus making ONE JOB fun does not make it a good idea.

That's the same logic as people macrobombing the shit out of the station and one engineer screaming 'we can rebuild!' while the rest of the crew is stuck in the parts of the station that won't kill them for the next 30-60 minutes.

And as I said before, regular viro made viruses are pleny strong enough as is - if youre only releasing 1 virus instead of a dozen you're simply doing it wrong.
The only issue with making custom viruses is how much time goes into doing it.
In that regard, this is identical to macrobombs vs tank bombs - you can ass fuck the station with 6 tank bombs, but that takes time and effort. Macro bombs canbe done by anyone, anwhere, and requires zero effort or time.

This is dumb.

Custom viro virusses are piss poor compared to how much time they take to make even if you release multiple. Releasing the virus crate requires almost zero effort and is almost as deadly in contrast.

The custom "bad" symptoms are just not strong enough. Virologist is a one trick pony and the trick they do isn't that spectacular.

Making bombs is also easy as fuck compared to making good virusses, and with virusses you have a random element no matter how good you are.

Posted: **Tue Jan 12, 2016 10:31 pm**

lumipharon wrote:Having a round fucking virus making ONE JOB fun does not make it a good idea.

That's the same logic as people macrobombing the shit out of the station and one engineer screaming 'we can rebuild!' while the rest of the crew is stuck in the parts of the station that won't kill them for the next 30-60 minutes.

Except this literally never happens, because A) no engineer ever rebuilds and B) nobody ever doesn't call the shuttle in this situation anymore. The game has almost completely abandoned the idea of actually fixing station problems, and it's a shame.

Posted: **Tue Jan 12, 2016 10:34 pm**

I think this must be the source of conflicting playstyles. I came from a SS13 server and I learned by fixing the round instead of resetting it. It's kind of sad when something as simple as a syndicate bomb causes the shuttle to be called, rather than 20 sheets of metal putting 11 TC to waste.

Posted: **Tue Jan 12, 2016 10:52 pm**

bandit wrote:
lumipharon wrote:Having a round fucking virus making ONE JOB fun does not make it a good idea.

That's the same logic as people macrobombing the shit out of the station and one engineer screaming 'we can rebuild!' while the rest of the crew is stuck in the parts of the station that won't kill them for the next 30-60 minutes.
Except this literally never happens, because A) no engineer ever rebuilds and B) nobody ever doesn't call the shuttle in this situation anymore. The game has almost completely abandoned the idea of actually fixing station problems, and it's a shame.

That's exactly my point.

People are saying that this virus is fine because one guy on the station gets something to do while the rest of the crew gets skullfucked by a biblical plague.
This is directly comparable to people saying macrobombs are ok because it gives engineers something to do.

Posted: **Tue Jan 12, 2016 10:59 pm**

No one counts 8station as a legitimate server

Posted: **Tue Jan 12, 2016 11:06 pm**

maybe I'm out of line here but on basil, even when it's full of pubbies as it is now; pretty much every time something happens people fix the station instead of instantly calling the shuttle

Posted: **Wed Jan 13, 2016 6:48 am**

lumipharon wrote:That's exactly my point.

People are saying that this virus is fine because one guy on the station gets something to do while the rest of the crew gets skullfucked by a biblical plague.
This is directly comparable to people saying macrobombs are ok because it gives engineers something to do.

The rest of the crew getting skullfucked by a biblical plague is their own fault for not following basic precautions and instead leeroying their way toward Typhoid Mary. The sort of quarantine situation that could result would actually make for some fairly decent RP that breaks up the monotony of the round, it's just that few people even come close to trying.

Also, macrobombs were indeed shit, but that's not the reason why.

Posted: **Wed Jan 13, 2016 1:07 pm**

Except you can't avoid getting infected by this shit, everyone who has it will be KO'd so they won't yell about it on comms, so if you don't catch it airborne, you'll just unknowingly walk over a random tile of blood because there's blood everywhere on the station normally.

Posted: **Wed Jan 13, 2016 1:14 pm**

It seems that the biggest problem is that people do not know how to handle it. It is still a fresh feature, and no one has ever dealt with a potent virus before. It presents an entirely new scenario the likes of which no one on our current medical system has had to handle. Players simply need time to learn how to adapt. The medical players need to learn how to instate a quarantine, virologist/CMO players learn how to make vaccines from cured patients, and chemists how to dilute and distribute the vaccine on a mass scale. Security players must learn how to enforce a quarantine, and the remaining non-antagonist players must learn to listen to Medical's orders when a plague breaks out.

It requires coordination on a scale only seen by team antagonists, the crew during a blob/malf attack, and security players. People will have to learn how to work together and handle a problem.

Posted: **Wed Jan 13, 2016 1:20 pm**

And yet all that is achieved by a single button press from a common antagonist. Do you not see the issue here?

Posted: **Wed Jan 13, 2016 1:58 pm**

Yeah if it took actual effort to get a virus of this stupidity (this shit isn't even lethal it just floors you for 10 minutes and then you can't ghost out because lol KO'd) I'd be fine with it because it's not just lel fuk da round REROLL

Posted: **Wed Jan 13, 2016 2:05 pm**

What if the Virus required some items before hand from certain area's of the station before it could be let loose?

Lore wise we can argue this is a stolen max-security virus sample taken from a NT Station, and that to open it is a three step process of acquiring a unique item and activating it with the container in any order.

You may need, for example, three separate and unique head level ID cards to be scanned to unlock the three locking mechanisms, excluding your own (if you spawn in as a head of staff). Or something similar.

You could reduce this by spending more TC's to brute force one lock mechanism. So for 10 TC's you get the container, for 15 you can remove one lock and for 20 you remove two locks.

Either way your going to need to kill at minimum one to three head's of staff to unlock the container, but the more TC's you spend the less cards you need but the less TC's you have left over to spend on equipment to acquire said ID cards.

Posted: **Wed Jan 13, 2016 2:11 pm**

Honestly like I said above what I'd do is make it be a 10 TC viro card. The card would do nothing on its own, but when slotted into the PANDEMIC machine it would multiply the effects of the viruses put out by it by two. Good and bad, aka people vomit blood like a fucking waterhose but all it takes to cure it is sugar and brute patches.

Posted: **Wed Jan 13, 2016 3:44 pm**

We could get job specific traitor items like goon, lots of potential fun and new content.

Posted: **Wed Jan 13, 2016 3:46 pm**

Job specific traitor items basically broadcast that you're the traitor, unfortunately.

Posted: **Wed Jan 13, 2016 3:56 pm**

LiamLime wrote:Job specific traitor items basically broadcast that you're the traitor, unfortunately.

Like an emag. Anyway, nobody would be FORCED to buy them.

Posted: **Wed Jan 13, 2016 3:59 pm**

No, what I mean is - If you're the clown and the crew finds a clown car (clown traitor item) anywhere on the station - close to you, far away from you, anywhere - the crew will instantly know that the clown is the traitor.

If someone finds an emag somewhere, all that tells them is that there is a clown somewhere on the station, it doesn't tell them anything about who the traitor is.

And to pre-emptively respond to cries of "metagaming, ban he" or whatever the current meme is, that's not enforceable and I personally think it's unreasonable to expect all players to ignore an obvious sign like that.

Posted: **Wed Jan 13, 2016 5:25 pm**

Job-specific items doesn't work for the reasons above, but items that benefit some jobs more than others do. A Cargo Technician will get more use out of an emag than an Engineer; a Roboticist would like a binary key more than an Assistant; and so on. They're still useful as other jobs, but the synergy is more obvious sometimes. Adding a virologist-specific item wouldn't work - but adding one that only helps virology might. (Or just add its functionality to the radioactive health analyzer, since nobody uses that anyway.)

Posted: **Wed Jan 13, 2016 5:26 pm**

LiamLime wrote:No, what I mean is - If you're the clown and the crew finds a clown car (clown traitor item) anywhere on the station - close to you, far away from you, anywhere - the crew will instantly know that the clown is the traitor.

If someone finds an emag somewhere, all that tells them is that there is a clown somewhere on the station, it doesn't tell them anything about who the traitor is.

And to pre-emptively respond to cries of "metagaming, ban he" or whatever the current meme is, that's not enforceable and I personally think it's unreasonable to expect all players to ignore an obvious sign like that.

I understand that and partially agree, but here is how I see things:

Currently, there are many options available for traitors. I dont think we should reduce them.
But, if we add new items, traitors who understand the consequences (being horribly murdered if the contraband is found) can still choose to use this stuff.
More content means more fun.
Also, since HoPs can open job slots, jobs are less unique now than how it used to be.

Posted: **Wed Jan 13, 2016 5:35 pm**

There was a fungel turburculo outbreak once. I was fatmos tech so I cut wall into janitor closet and stole his biopants until I got vaccined

Posted: **Wed Jan 13, 2016 5:56 pm**

leibniz wrote:More content means more fun.

Oh god no, that's most certainly not the case in general.

I think the way Goonstation solves this is by having everyone get the traitor item of their job + one from a random other job. I sort of missed the obvious solution in my previous post, whoops

Posted: **Wed Jan 13, 2016 7:25 pm**

LiamLime wrote:
leibniz wrote:More content means more fun.
Oh god no, that's most certainly not the case in general.

I think the way Goonstation solves this is by having everyone get the traitor item of their job + one from a random other job. I sort of missed the obvious solution in my previous post, whoops

In this case, it looks fun to me
http://wiki.ss13.co/Syndicate_Items#So_ ... ittle_time

Posted: **Wed Jan 13, 2016 9:12 pm**

Job specific traitor items give your job away yet are seriously useful, more so than items that can be bought by any traitor.

At least that's how it is on goon. Also that they can be found in the crates that take all of your TC.

Posted: **Wed Jan 13, 2016 9:36 pm**

Job specific tator items 'giving you away' implies you leaving them lying around for people to find, or release viro exclusive traitor virus/botanist exclusive killer cabbage etc and sticking around at your job to get caught.

I don't see the problem here, especially conidering most jobs have more than one slot on top of that.

Posted: **Wed Jan 13, 2016 10:46 pm**

Meant for things like clown, where roundstart slot space is one.

Posted: **Wed Jan 13, 2016 11:10 pm**

Well yeah, for jobs like the Clown, the clown had the clown car. Now I don't know if any of you have ever actually experienced the horror known as the Clown Car, but it is a murderous honkstrosity of horrific proportions. When you spawn that thing in you ARE NOT GOING TO BE QUIET. You are going out to hit and kidnap as many people with your car as possible before driving directly into a gibber/the singularity. Getting caught isn't really something you worry about when you spawn that shit in.

tl;dr job specific traitor items are a good idea

/tg/Station 13

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