/tg/Station 13

Bottom post of the previous page:

It is a shame because steel point clearly put in some time on this stuff. Can we please buff lasers/give them tacticool new sprites instead? Right now being shot with a fucking laser gun hurts about as bad as being whacked with a fire extinguisher which is pretty shit

Wyzack wrote:> Our asspain will blot out the sun

> Then we will merge in the shade

Seriously though Amelius why not offer some ways you think the PR could be better other than LOLNOBALENCEISDEDWORSTCHANGE2015

Or maybe steelpoint won't give up until he can 1veverything as hos so we aren't obligated to put up with it.

Much as I would like to see ballistics and they look really good... I think laser weapons and energy weapons are thematically appropriate. Some buffs to them would be best. Hell some sort of E-Pistol at round start.... Maybe the ability to install a separate module that turns them lethal to keep the same feel? I wish I had a better solution so I'm just throwing ideas out there.

ThanatosRa wrote:Much as I would like to see ballistics and they look really good... I think laser weapons and energy weapons are thematically appropriate. Some buffs to them would be best. Hell some sort of E-Pistol at round start.... Maybe the ability to install a separate module that turns them lethal to keep the same feel? I wish I had a better solution so I'm just throwing ideas out there.

Fuck thematically appropriate.

Themes change.

God forbid we at least try it for a week.

Wyzack wrote:It is a shame because steel point clearly put in some time on this stuff. Can we please buff lasers/give them tacticool new sprites instead? Right now being shot with a fucking laser gun hurts about as bad as being whacked with a fire extinguisher which is pretty shit

I agree with this. Lasers sorely need a buff, they flat out suck. Juggs are retarded with that reflect too.

Amelius wrote:

Wyzack wrote:It is a shame because steel point clearly put in some time on this stuff. Can we please buff lasers/give them tacticool new sprites instead? Right now being shot with a fucking laser gun hurts about as bad as being whacked with a fire extinguisher which is pretty shit

I agree with this. Lasers sorely need a buff, they flat out suck. Juggs are retarded with that reflect too.

So why not try having the ballistics in for a week with this PR, then revert it if its shit.

We see common problems and balancing issues that come from it so we can have a better shot at it down the road.

Tornadium wrote:So why not try having the ballistics in for a week with this PR, then revert it if its shit.

We see common problems and balancing issues that come from it so we can have a better shot at it down the road.

So why not try having cubespace in for a week with this PR, then revert it if it's shit (never reverted)

So why not try having slowspace in for a week with this PR, then revert it if it's shit (never fully reverted, took months to do a partial revert, still shit).

So why not try having nuke op implants in for a week with this PR, then revert it if it's shit (only partially reverted, half a year after the original changes pushed through and only reverted after a 10 page thread and a ridiculous defense from Cheridan).

So why not try goofchem for a week with this PR, then revert it if it's shit (never reverted despite community outcry).

etc.

Fact of the matter, shit changes are almost never reverted, and if they are, only in part. So no, take no quarter for shit changes on a 'trial basis' (codeword for 'forever').

Amelius wrote:

Tornadium wrote:So why not try having the ballistics in for a week with this PR, then revert it if its shit.

We see common problems and balancing issues that come from it so we can have a better shot at it down the road.

So why not try having cubespace in for a week with this PR, then revert it if it's shit (never reverted)

So why not try having slowspace in for a week with this PR, then revert it if it's shit (never fully reverted, took months to do a partial revert, still shit).

So why not try having nuke op implants in for a week with this PR, then revert it if it's shit (only partially reverted, half a year after the original changes pushed through and only reverted after a 10 page thread and a ridiculous defense from Cheridan).

So why not try goofchem for a week with this PR, then revert it if it's shit (never reverted despite community outcry).

etc.

Fact of the matter, shit changes are almost never reverted, and if they are, only in part. So no, take no quarter for shit changes on a 'trial basis' (codeword for 'forever').

He said he would personally revert everything.

You will never be able to fucking test anything and see player reaction in implementation. This shit isn't all theorycrafting and "I THINK THIS IDEA SUCKS".

Just stop being a fucking baby and put the PR in for a few days to see how the player base reacts and what issues it causes.

This is an utterly insane idea in terms of balance. It upsets the balance of literally every round.

Code changes seriously almost never get reverted unless it actually fucks the game code wise.
Even when someone WANTS to revert something, as other changes happen on top, it becomes more and more difficult to actually do so.
AKA: every single code change that has been 'a trial' ever.

The guns are neat. It would be nice to have them in game. But not replacing sec default kit.

Edit: To expand, since I feel I ought to.

1: Thematic change
NT have always used mainly energy weapons. Not a balance factor but it's been like this forever basically, and makes for a clear and nice contrast between NT and the syndicate.

2: Practicality for sec use
Officers typically only have 1 taser (5 stuns), but rechargers are scattered all over the station, making it easy to rearm so long as there is power.
Ballistics means you can carry a fuckload of ammo around with you if you want. But whether you do or you don't, you eventually going to have to go back to the brig to rearm from their limited supply of bullets. And what happens if someone spaces the sec vendor with all the ammo in it? Then you're dependant on autolathes and cargo.

Also the fact alone that sec officer can carry around hundreds of bullets it they so please is a huge balance change. You go from 5 stuns per officer to dozens.

3: Antags
Antags (and sec) are balanced around sec having energy weapons. replacing them with ballistics FUCKS EVERY ROUND TYPE OVER IN SOME WAY.
adrenal and emp implants/ling powers become near useless.
Double sword/shield become useless (and if someone suggests making them block ballistics, then that's removing their only ranged counter, which is even more awful.
Being able to unload 50+ bullets into people per officer, because you have a hand gun instead of a taser is huge in the mass antag game modes especially (gang/rev/cult).
Etc etc

4: Ballistics don't go through glass
This is actually a significan balance issue in a few ways.
Lasers going through glass gives sec a big homefield advantage, since the station, and brig in particular, has shitloads of windows/glass airlocks etc.
Carp will become a hilarious nightmare, since you would have to break the window to kill them with ballistic weapons, for example.

5: The game is balanced around sec using energy weapons!
This cannot be stressed enough - I'm sure it's not impossible to make the game balanced around sec being heavily armed soldiers. I'm also sure it's not impossible to balance around sec being clowns, or only having plasma fist.
The fact is though, it will require a metric fuckload of balancing to do this, and for what? What are the specific aims of this change?
How will the game be improved by making such a big change, and why is this the easiest way to achieve those aims?

lumipharon wrote:This is an utterly insane idea in terms of balance. It upsets the balance of literally every round.

Code changes seriously almost never get reverted unless it actually fucks the game code wise.
Even when someone WANTS to revert something, as other changes happen on top, it becomes more and more difficult to actually do so.
AKA: every single code change that has been 'a trial' ever.

The guns are neat. It would be nice to have them in game. But not replacing sec default kit.

It upsets the balance in most of the rounds where it needs to be upset.

Sec needs a minor buff in some areas that these ballistics provide.

Just fucking do this one properly, hell I'll even fucking keep track of the commit and rip fucking all of it out after the trial period. It's not a replacement, it's a choice. The plan is you either pick a taser or a pistol at round start to give Sec more options.

There is no point to not at least trying it and seeing what effects it has so we can perhaps refine it for a different PR further down the road, or do we never do any testing at all and just go with whatever the most "important" people feel is best?

20 burn laser pistol sidearms for sec officers when? Also buff lasers/eguns to 25 burn

>minor buff
Z8 Marksman Rifle: Powerful semi-auto weapon issued to the Head of Security. Deals 80 damage per round and has five bullets per mag
>80 dmg

>minor buff

I like the pistols though

yo when i said i'd like lethal sidearms for sec i meant like tiny little pistol things not all of this

oranges wrote:>minor buff
Z8 Marksman Rifle: Powerful semi-auto weapon issued to the Head of Security. Deals 80 damage per round and has five bullets per mag
>80 dmg

>minor buff

That's already getting a massive reduction don't worry.

Already reduced to 50 damage oranges read the file changes.

>50 damage
>minor buff

just cut the memes

As I said on the IRC (and now github) what I want to try with the Marksman rifle is to LOWER its damage to 25 damage (or so) per bullet. HOWEVER it will deal 20 stamina damage per bullet AND the bullets will have 50 AP potential. Meaning the bullets will ignore up to 50 bullet defence on any armour.

So while the gun itself deals low damage, its guaranteed damage against most targets that have bulletproof armour.

--

I'll also be looking at antagonist armour and buffing bullet defence to match current laser defence.

oranges nothing in the PR is static, don't assume it can't be changed or anything.

Hell I even said on IRC that if this is merged (unlikely) that if I did not examine the changes after a week based on feedback that they should just ban me from github.

I just pushed a minor buff to changeling armour and the Wizards RIG for bullet and laser defence.

This isn't a dig at steel, but why the fuck is anyone ok with armour creep, when armour got nerfed ACROSS THE BOARD on almost every single item?
Why not just do the logical thing and revert that?

Ok I've closed the PR and have made a split. One PR will deal with the Pistols and the other with the other guns.

Link to the Pistol only PR: https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/11672

To think, all sec needed was a lethal setting on the taser.

invisty wrote:To think, all sec needed was a lethal setting on the taser.

Just give eguns back their tase+lase combo and be done with it any all of this is irrelevant.

Fuck you may as well remove stamina because these guns will off someone most times before they get dropped by stamina damage in a fight.

Alright so, heres some test feedback!

Some before hand knowledge you should know:
I favor ballistics over energy, I just don't like how energy guns can shoot through glass and doors, it just isn't fun.
Ballistics to me is better, you have to take cover, and actually think about your shots, with lasers its take cover, fire around the corner through the window just isn't fun..

Heres how I see ballistics helping:
Sec uses revolvers instead of tazers..
>Tazers stun for a few seconds, and its just over if you get tazed
>Revolvers stun for barely 1-2 seconds, it gives security either ample time to run up and baton you, or shoot you a few more times. (Helps fights be more balanced against sec)
>E-guns have limited shots, but do way less damage. Syndicate smg's can take out ai turrets incase it goes rogue rather quick.
>Combat shotguns seem a bit buggy, I don't suggest them being used unless dire emergency.


Because of the ballistic weapons, I and the crew killed ops which had a syndiborg, rather quickly.. Even with the disk being IN MAINTENANCE. I vote for this to be put in, it's a really great alternative!

I plan to put up the Auto Rifle PR sooner or later.

I'm not certain what to do with the Marksman rifle, in retrospect I do think its a bit odd to issue someone a high calibre weapon such as a sniper that could breach the hull, the pistols and rifles get a pass due to them being lower calibre.

There are two things I can think to do with the marksman rifle, aside from just removing it.

1:) Make it deal 25 to 35 damage, but it has 50 AP. This means it deals low damage but its damage is guaranteed to deal full damage on armoured targets.

2:) Convert it to a semi-auto shotgun for special use for the HoS or in the armoury.

I also need to do a proper revision of the armoury but that's for the Auto gun PR.

Steel i really hope this gets merged, great idea, and plus nice looking sprites.

Though the compact smg mp7 looking one, maybe re color it? People may mistake it for a tazer smg.

I'll look into the skin issue.

Here's a first pass of a new armoury design to account for the new items.

I might look, if people are concerned, into placing blast doors that only open upon red alert in front of the tac room.

Stimulants counter Stamina, Adrenals heal some Stamina.

There is counter play for this, most of the claims of this "breaking shit" have been either outright lying or exaggerating to ridiculous levels.

Try the pistol PR as a trial and see what happens.

Yeah I hope MSO can trial run the PR a few times on Sybil so we can see how it goes.

Red alert is rarely used, I'd say use a shutter do, button access restricted to Hos, captain.

Another reason for no red alert door: People couldn't hack in (antags)

A shutter button in the HoS's/Wardens Office that's restricted to the Captain, HoS or Warden sounds good.

New armory looks pretty good, Maybe put the tac room literally against the back wall or something just to make sure people can't bitch.

I still think this is all a horrible idea, but if you really want a neat HoS gun that isn't simply OP, give it a non ghetto improvised shotgun (1 shot loaded at a time) an give him a few shells like meteor shot etc.
Gives him some neat utility value, but more importantly, gives him fucking swag.

Tornadium wrote:New armory looks pretty good, Maybe put the tac room literally against the back wall or something just to make sure people can't bitch.

The tac room where it is puts a much needed blind spot in the armory for space invaders to use to their advantage. Putting the tac room back there would be a bad idea as they would be almost completely unseen and impossible to defend against (if the blast door idea were to happen) and gives the invaders a much deadlier set of weapons to steal for arguably less effort, considering they don't have to push past lockers, suit storage units, and undeployed barriers.

lumipharon wrote:I still think this is all a horrible idea, but if you really want a neat HoS gun that isn't simply OP, give it a non ghetto improvised shotgun (1 shot loaded at a time) an give him a few shells like meteor shot etc.
Gives him some neat utility value, but more importantly, gives him fucking swag.

Yeah, I read the points you made.

We already covered them in IRC and they're kind of either blatant exaggerations, wrong or out of touch with the current state of the PR.

Actually wielding into the armoury will be slightly easier due to the wall.

However actually moving to loot weapons will be a bit easier but still hard. Since all the weapons are located against the lower south wall, meaning the Warden will see. Also wielding into the Tac room will be obvious.

Saegrimr wrote:

Tornadium wrote:New armory looks pretty good, Maybe put the tac room literally against the back wall or something just to make sure people can't bitch.

The tac room where it is puts a much needed blind spot in the armory for space invaders to use to their advantage. Putting the tac room back there would be a bad idea as they would be almost completely unseen and impossible to defend against (if the blast door idea were to happen) and gives the invaders a much deadlier set of weapons to steal for arguably less effort, considering they don't have to push past lockers, suit storage units, and undeployed barriers.

I personally like it where it is, there was just so much bitching from like the same 3 people in IRC that I'd be tempted to just put it at the back wall to shut them up.

Steelpoint wrote:I'll look into the skin issue.

Here's a first pass of a new armoury design to account for the new items.

I might look, if people are concerned, into placing blast doors that only open upon red alert in front of the tac room.

> Break into armory through rwalls while the warden can fucking see you.
> Can't take a single gun without breaking glass sans the riot shotguns, which are useless when the warden can just disable you through the glass uncounterably, and it's close enough to the front that every fucking one can see you.
> Actually robust weapons are behind a SECOND RWALL OR DOOR.
> Warden can both hear and see someone breaking into the armory from space anyway.
> Antags get fucked over even more than they already are. It's probably around 500 times harder to break into this armory than the current one.

WHY!? I bet all those weapons are implantlocked too, because you may as well just be saying 'FUCK ANTAGS, LET'S MAKE IT IMPOSSIBLE TO EVEN PARTIALLY LOOT THE ARMORY WITHOUT KILLING THE ENTIRE SECURITY FORCE WITH YOUR FISTS'.

That was a first pass, I'll happily take any feedback into account for the next pass.

Steelpoint wrote:That was a first pass, I'll happily take any feedback into account for the next pass.

A good start is removing the rglass surrounding the eguns/tasers so that they can be used by invaders.

This is how it is now, by the way.

The sniper rifle should have a zoom mode, like the one on marauders. You can't move but your visual range zooms out. It would make it a unique and interesting weapon, instead of just another supergun for superHoS.

About the tac room, I'd rather have it all walled in without windows but with a camera so the warden can check it without having to open the shutters. I wouldn't touch the rest of the armory layout, it's good as it is.

Grazyn wrote:The sniper rifle should have a zoom mode, like the one on marauders. You can't move but your visual range zooms out. It would make it a unique and interesting weapon, instead of just another supergun for superHoS.

Bad idea. Think about it from the other end.

> Kill half the station as a traitor.
> Strutting along.
> Suddenly dead through your bulletproof vest/helmet and shield without any time for reaction (face it, 50 stam + 25 damage = slow enough for a second shot to hit with 99% accuracy, shoot 5 times = dead antag. Also, the antag physically wouldn't be able to see it coming, or react to it even if it were a robot with 0 ms latency).

How is this balanced?

Actually no.

If your wearing a bulletproof vest that 25 dam + 50 stam turns into 5 dam + 10 stam.

If I use the 50 AP then it goes from 80 bul to 30 bul, so that goes to 17.5 dam + 35 stam

Steelpoint wrote:Actually no.

If your wearing a bulletproof vest that 25 dam + 50 stam turns into 5 dam + 10 stam.

You were talking about adding 50 AP to it, meaning the bullet resistance wouldn't do squat.

Steelpoint wrote:If I use the 50 AP then it goes from 80 bul to 30 bul, so that goes to 17.5 dam + 35 stam

Which is 52.5 damage, more than enough to slow you to a crawl, and a second shot will knock you down, just like I said. That's like the level you're at after being hit by two disabler shots, and this is with equipment SPECIFICALLY TO DEFEND AGAINST BALLISTICS.

Also:

> HoS gets a piece of equipment almost more effective than a revolver for free.

im just going to close any PR with a sniper rifle btw, being killed by something offscreen is on par with parapenc4 or parasting.

Maybe give it a brief delay between click and shot, and it illuminates the target like a laser pointer before shooting (would make for great librarian pranks)? Basically give it all the drawbacks of a classic sniper rifle in any multiplayer game, hard damage but it's difficult to hit moving targets and they know when you're aiming for them (like BF4 with the scope glare).

I don't think I'll even include the marksman rifle.

The next PR will only feature the autorifles and the new armoury.

At best the marksman rifle might be a semi-auto shotgun. But that's not for now.

Steelpoint wrote:I don't think I'll even include the marksman rifle.

The next PR will only feature the autorifles and the new armoury.

At best the marksman rifle might be a semi-auto shotgun. But that's not for now.

Just give him the bolt action we already have.

The Pistols are currently now live on the server for testing, I urge anyone to look at how they work and give feedback.

Thank you.

Steelpoint wrote:The Pistols are currently now live on the server for testing, I urge anyone to look at how they work and give feedback.

Thank you.

Tsar is vetoing it or something in IRC.

I think we should wait to see how the test goes before we resort to drastic measures.