/tg/Station 13

Posted: **Mon Jun 29, 2015 6:40 pm**

Bottom post of the previous page:

Yeah, as much as you posture cjs you don't ever try to make your point on github, or even Coderbus IRC

I mean you have some good ideas and feedback, but you should be making them where it'd be the most visible and have the largest impact.

Posted: **Mon Jun 29, 2015 7:20 pm**

Also, before you say "But I have posted on github, and it was rejected!"
The issue tracker is to post bugs and stuff, not a place to yell about how terrible something is.
If people were saying how bad of an idea macrobombs were in the feedback thread before the PR was merged, none of then came and said anything on the comments of the PR. Those comments are the place you put feedback on something before it's merged. While the thread may have a link to the PR, the pr often doesn't have a link to the thread.

Posted: **Mon Jun 29, 2015 10:40 pm**

Ikarrus wrote:Yeah, as much as you posture cjs you don't ever try to make your point on github, or even Coderbus IRC

I mean you have some good ideas and feedback, but you should be making them where it'd be the most visible and have the largest impact.

Probably because the last time he posted on github he posted several shouty walls of text and so was told to take those to the forum instead so code quality comments didn't get cluttered with design comments.

Posted: **Mon Jun 29, 2015 10:44 pm**

t b h
b
h

i wouldnt want cjs to offer any advice in terms of coding in any form at all.
he is the wrong type of person to take criticism from, because he's a massive fucking powergamer.

Posted: **Mon Jun 29, 2015 11:04 pm**

See 2nd paragraph of https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... 747#p47759 for my views on direction.

The truth is nobody wants the code to have a direction. They'll say they do, and they want it to have their direction, of course. But if they don't agree with that direction, it's time to rev up the shitpost engines.

The code always reaches an equilibrium. Something new'll get added and it'll be useless, or OP or neglected. And someone'll fix it at some point. In this particular case of macrobombs they were nerfed in like a freaking day.The "wild ride" you want off is called Game Development, and it's why games go through alpha and beta testing. SS13 happens to be using the increasingly-popular Perpetual Beta model. It's not even as bad as it used to be on SVN, where shit would crash the server or someone would port baymed half-assedly and the whole server would bleed to death from papercuts they couldn't heal.

Posted: **Mon Jun 29, 2015 11:10 pm**

You know what they say,

If you like hot dogs.... don't see how they're made.

Posted: **Mon Jun 29, 2015 11:13 pm**

Well obviously you would like your own mess Cheridan.

Posted: **Mon Jun 29, 2015 11:15 pm**

palpatine213 wrote:Also, before you say "But I have posted on github, and it was rejected!"
The issue tracker is to post bugs and stuff, not a place to yell about how terrible something is.
If people were saying how bad of an idea macrobombs were in the feedback thread before the PR was merged, none of then came and said anything on the comments of the PR. Those comments are the place you put feedback on something before it's merged. While the thread may have a link to the PR, the pr often doesn't have a link to the thread.

Goof literally made the feedback thread before the pr was merged, explicitly for, you know, feedback.
Unless you want everyone to copy paste everything they say in BOTH the feedback threads and the pr, then I dunno what you expect.

Posted: **Mon Jun 29, 2015 11:33 pm**

perpetual beta is okay in my books

Posted: **Tue Jun 30, 2015 12:01 am**

Ricotez wrote:wow it's almost like tgstation is an open source project that people code for in their free time and not a tightly developed game that is worked on around the clock by a dedicated studio

Posted: **Tue Jun 30, 2015 8:05 am**

But its also a game that people play and enjoy in its current state.

Whats so hard about writting a planning document, waiting a week or two for feedback on it and then coding it.

Posted: **Tue Jun 30, 2015 8:36 am**

If it's a small change, what's the point?

If it's a big change, all the other PRs made in the meantime by people who are just coding to pick( fix bugs , add fun stuff and don't care about the mythical coder hierarchy) will conflict badly with any serious rewrites, and maintainers are extremely unlikely to not merge this stuff while three-five of the twenty-odd coders sit in a piratepad screaming at each other because they have differing opinions.

Posted: **Tue Jun 30, 2015 8:47 am**

Except... you won't get merge conflicts because you won't have started coding the damned thing until after the design doc has been hashed out, if anything you'll get less conflicts because the review process isn't getting held up by "are we sure this is a good idea" questions.

If goofball had done a feedback thread before coding minibombs we all could've told him what a terrible idea it was.

Posted: **Tue Jun 30, 2015 11:29 am**

And after the design document is hashed out, and you start coding, the entire mess of people coding still won't come to a grinding halt just for the benefits of whatever retarded project you've badgered out, and you'll still be contending with conflicts.

Any long coding process will have to deal with conflicts, and demanding a unified cohesive effort from thirty-odd people with different ideas and opions on the game, with no overriding theme, with massively differing levels of coding ability, scattered across the world to stop making everything else related to whatever massive system you're changing, for a period of time of up to, say, a month, is unreasonable.

Even the featurethanksremie freezes, which everyone agrees are necessary and are bound to exactly a month long, not "whenever we finally get it ready" are unrespected and largely ignored, with "fixes #8550, which is a feature request but OooOoOoO issue closed!" and [DNM] and "It was important, honest!". And they only demand a cessation of feature coding, not a near-complete shutdown of the github until R&D has been refactored or whatever

Posted: **Tue Jun 30, 2015 11:30 am**

Not-Dorsidarf wrote: Even the code freezes ... And they only demand a cessation of feature coding, not a near-complete shutdown of the github until R&D has been refactored or whatever

that's because these are FEATURE FREEZES, not code freezes.
of COURSE things other than features are allowed through during a FEATURE freeze.

Posted: **Tue Jun 30, 2015 11:32 am**

I think you missed the entire point of that paragraph, Remie.

Edit: I may have written the wrong word somewhere in that lot

Posted: **Tue Jun 30, 2015 11:52 am**

I think you're missing my point too.

Don't forget, I followed the design doc - feedback- code process, whilst overhauling a game mode. There was something like over a thousand lines of code changed, and I didn't have that many conflicts to deal with

But my point is, if you write a design doc first and ask people to comment on it you can quickly find issues with it or even just have other people go "no... thats a crap idea"

Posted: **Wed Jul 01, 2015 2:11 am**

Ikarrus wrote:Yeah, as much as you posture cjs you don't ever try to make your point on github, or even Coderbus IRC

I mean you have some good ideas and feedback, but you should be making them where it'd be the most visible and have the largest impact.

My experience posting there have been even more negative than posting in Feedback in terms of acknowledging/recognizing problems.

The people who often add these shittiest of shit changes are also those most inclined to ignore people like me, or most of the playerbase for that matter.

I mean seriously, go look at StonedOne shitposting in my Blob thread below this one. If I complain about something being absurdly strong = "Oldmans just mad he can't powergame to beat it". If I complain about something being too weak = "Oldmans just mad he can't use it to powergame".

Whether its the site admin, headcoder, or whoever, most people suck at responding to the substance of any feedback. I'm pretty sure Cheridan fought against every active Feedback poster in justifying removing their implants and locking their hardsuits. Plus, as I stated before, navigating github to actually identify PR's that are going to significantly alter game balance is really awful. There are 70 goddamn pull requests right now and most of them are "added bed for Ian, added pixel to scanner", but so many of them have horrendous titles that I can't easily identify what constitutes a truly important change.

Then on top of that, the fucking posts are often illegible. Either because they refer to code in lieu of explaining what the fuck is being changed or the poster is just shit as elucidating what they're change does.

Let's look a this PR from the legendary coder Goofball:

"Krav Maga is a fighting style good for 1 on 1 combat. It's obtainable from the traitor uplink in the form of gloves for 10tc. It's got 3 combos, a Leg Sweep, a Quick Choke, and a Head Elbow."

The post goes on to add details, but at no fucking point actually explains what the fuck a leg sweep, quick choke, or head elbow actually fucking do. For all I know leg sweep throws you into the singularity, quick choke insta-crits you, and head elbow gibs you. Jesus fucking christ how am I supposed to give feedback on this garbage.

The economics of the relationships between coders and players makes much more sense for CODERS to curate their most important goddamn changes and pass them along to feedback before merging, with polls carrying some weight beyond "I need to know what % of the playerbase to tune out".

Posted: **Wed Jul 01, 2015 2:54 am**

Malkevin wrote:But its also a game that people play and enjoy in its current state.

Whats so hard about writting a planning document, waiting a week or two for feedback on it and then coding it.

If it's so easy why don't you pitch in and make that change happen as a member of coderbus instead of standing here telling them to do it for you?

Who, among all of us who have ever been here or still remain, could possibly get everyone together and lead the direction of the game in the way you describe?

You've invented this ficticious position of a code czar that is so easy to do. Who do you think could actually do it though? Where is this game director/cat-herder that everyone will trust and go along with rather than bury under a mountain of shit?

I think if it was ever possible for someone to take the reigns like that it would've happened ages ago.

Posted: **Wed Jul 01, 2015 6:47 am**

Oldman Robustin wrote:Let's look a this PR from the legendary coder Goofball:

"Krav Maga is a fighting style good for 1 on 1 combat. It's obtainable from the traitor uplink in the form of gloves for 10tc. It's got 3 combos, a Leg Sweep, a Quick Choke, and a Head Elbow."

The post goes on to add details, but at no fucking point actually explains what the fuck a leg sweep, quick choke, or head elbow actually fucking do. For all I know leg sweep throws you into the singularity, quick choke insta-crits you, and head elbow gibs you. Jesus fucking christ how am I supposed to give feedback on this garbage.

Frankly, I'm impressed you managed to miss the big 'ol image at the very top of the PR, dominating the PR and commanding attention that explains all that for you. You really can't blame anyone but yourself for that, man.

e: turns out the images were added after this. regardless, the point stands that they are there.

Posted: **Wed Jul 01, 2015 6:49 am**

Maybe the image was added afterwards as a response to people wanting to know more? Maybe it was not.

Sadly Github does not record if you've edited your posts for other people to see.

Posted: **Wed Jul 01, 2015 6:52 am**

Oldman Robustin wrote: Let's look a this PR from the legendary coder Goofball:

"Krav Maga is a fighting style good for 1 on 1 combat. It's obtainable from the traitor uplink in the form of gloves for 10tc. It's got 3 combos, a Leg Sweep, a Quick Choke, and a Head Elbow."

The post goes on to add details, but at no fucking point actually explains what the fuck a leg sweep, quick choke, or head elbow actually fucking do. For all I know leg sweep throws you into the singularity, quick choke insta-crits you, and head elbow gibs you. Jesus fucking christ how am I supposed to give feedback on this garbage.

The economics of the relationships between coders and players makes much more sense for CODERS to curate their most important goddamn changes and pass them along to feedback before merging, with polls carrying some weight beyond "I need to know what % of the playerbase to tune out".

Hi, at the time of this being posted I was taking a shit and was launching DD so I could take images of the move lists. I've had images in the OP of the movesets for the last few hours.

Posted: **Wed Jul 01, 2015 7:04 am**

Oldman Robustin wrote:I mean seriously, go look at StonedOne shitposting in my Blob thread below this one. If I complain about something being absurdly strong = "Oldmans just mad he can't powergame to beat it". If I complain about something being too weak = "Oldmans just mad he can't use it to powergame".

I just want you to know, its not that your complaining that causes me to respond that way, its the way you do it.

You just seemed so frustrated and so mad about something you didn't understand, what else could have caused that?

If you could only learn the difference between criticism and throwing a tantrum we could move forward.

Posted: **Wed Jul 01, 2015 7:18 am**

MrStonedOne wrote:
Oldman Robustin wrote:I mean seriously, go look at StonedOne shitposting in my Blob thread below this one. If I complain about something being absurdly strong = "Oldmans just mad he can't powergame to beat it". If I complain about something being too weak = "Oldmans just mad he can't use it to powergame".
I just want you to know, its not that your complaining that causes me to respond that way, its the way you do it.

You just seemed so frustrated and so mad about something you didn't understand, what else could have caused that?

If you could only learn the difference between criticism and throwing a tantrum we could move forward.

On the other hand you are a massive shit to him half the time.

Just sayin'

Posted: **Wed Jul 01, 2015 8:02 am**

An0n3 wrote:
Malkevin wrote:But its also a game that people play and enjoy in its current state.

Whats so hard about writting a planning document, waiting a week or two for feedback on it and then coding it.

If it's so easy why don't you pitch in and make that change happen as a member of coderbus instead of standing here telling them to do it for you?

"Hurrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr"

Maybe you've forgotten how you accused me of trying grab power for actually asking you if that plan was viable.
Maybe you've also forgotten that I'm not a member of coderbus, I can't even post on github on account of being blocked.

It IS possible for someone to be the coding Benevolent El Presidenti Dictator, its just that:
a. It will be a lot of hard work
b. There will be a lot of kicking and screaming from the opposition.

Maybe for those reasons the only person who was able to do that was TLE, being the man who paid the server bills, was the head of admins and policy, and the head of code and head designer.

Oldman Robustin wrote: The people who often add these shittiest of shit changes are also those most inclined to ignore people like me, or most of the playerbase for that matter.

This is true, I certainly know I ignored you and only you.

Maybe there's a reason people ignore you?

Posted: **Wed Jul 01, 2015 11:37 am**

This thread is going down the shitter real fast.

xXx420unrailzxXx:
A lot of players are unhappy with the direction the game is heading and feel powerless to do anything about it because to them it seems like their opinions and complaints are only acknowledged by the coders when there's a shitstorm going on.
This is either due to a lack of transparency ('Did he read my post why I think this is a bad idea?') or ignorance ('He read it, but didn't give a fuck.').
Overkill example: the macrobombs thread in the feedback forum.
People were like 'Yay, sounds good for nuke ops!' 'Interesting. Let's try it.' Then goof mentions it's also available on all uplinks and suddenly the general opinion of the feature has turned towards a concerned 'pls no', with people giving legitimate reasons for their doubts. It didn't matter. Granted, the 1tc macrobombs bug has helped to demonstrate the awfulness of macrobombs, but people in the feedback thread knew an undetectable, instant max cap bomb would be disastrous in any scenario. The PR was still hammered through within two days.

Yes, I know, the game wouldn't go anywhere, if every player's wish is granted. We would still be running around at sanic speeds, spraying tasers down entire hallways.
Yes, I know, the coders are in no way whatsoever obligated to pamper all players' needs. Players do not pay them for their coding. But that doesn't mean the coders are entitled to ignore player input so that they can fulfill their vision of what the game is supposed to be and skullfuck every player in the process. Coders have a huge impact on the game and with that comes a need for accountability. Being able to say 'You can't tell me what to do, because I do it for free!' should not grant immunity when what they do affects a lot of other people.

There need to be more feedback threads started by the coders (just copy pasta your PR OP) for major additions that change game balance. If the thread has not turned into PLEASE-DO-NOT-ADD-THIS waterfall of begging tears after maybe up to a week (meaning: NOT two days), sure merge that stuff.
The forum is much better suited for discussion than github, plus it would keep the PRs cleaner and easier to read when most of the commenting about anything not code related is done on the forums.

Posted: **Wed Jul 01, 2015 12:06 pm**

Iamgoofball's features need a five-day merge limit, frankly. He can get back behind all the little, unsexy things that don't fuck up the entire game instead of having every change speedmerged as far as I'm concerned.

Posted: **Wed Jul 01, 2015 12:31 pm**

Not-Dorsidarf wrote:Iamgoofball's features need a five-day merge limit, frankly. He can get back behind all the little, unsexy things that don't fuck up the entire game instead of having every change speedmerged as far as I'm concerned.

then nothing would get merged because of conflicts
inb4 'good' or 'then he will leave'
that isn't a nice thing to say.

ultimately, the only place you'll get your feedback seen easily is on the PR. it is not hard to make even a throwaway email to post there. be the change you want to be, etc.

thread is stagnating at this point.

Posted: **Wed Jul 01, 2015 12:37 pm**

420weedscopes wrote:
Not-Dorsidarf wrote:Iamgoofball's features need a five-day merge limit, frankly. He can get back behind all the little, unsexy things that don't fuck up the entire game instead of having every change speedmerged as far as I'm concerned.
then nothing would get merged because of conflicts
inb4 'good' or 'then he will leave'
that isn't a nice thing to say.

ultimately, the only place you'll get your feedback seen easily is on the PR. it is not hard to make even a throwaway email to post there. be the change you want to be, etc.

thread is stagnating at this point.

Gee, I guess the rest of us who frequently have to wait up to ten, or even twenty days for their PRs to be merged don't code at all and we secretly quit immediately, huh?

Posted: **Wed Jul 01, 2015 3:24 pm**

Not-Dorsidarf wrote:
420weedscopes wrote:
Not-Dorsidarf wrote:Iamgoofball's features need a five-day merge limit, frankly. He can get back behind all the little, unsexy things that don't fuck up the entire game instead of having every change speedmerged as far as I'm concerned.
then nothing would get merged because of conflicts
inb4 'good' or 'then he will leave'
that isn't a nice thing to say.

ultimately, the only place you'll get your feedback seen easily is on the PR. it is not hard to make even a throwaway email to post there. be the change you want to be, etc.

thread is stagnating at this point.
Gee, I guess the rest of us who frequently have to wait up to ten, or even twenty days for their PRs to be merged don't code at all and we secretly quit immediately, huh?

My shit gets merged so fast compared to the other prs because I'm really proactive about mergebegging and getting the PR merged.

If you throw up a pr and disappear of the face of the earth and never remind a maintainer your pr exists, it's probably not gonna be merged for awhile.

Posted: **Wed Jul 01, 2015 5:16 pm**

GunHog did constant mergebegging for me for a particular PR of mine, the PR was open for over two months anyways.

Your things get merged fast because you give up that ass, goof, admit it.

Posted: **Thu Jul 02, 2015 5:38 am**

My last memory of Malkevin was "he almost added some terrible changes to cult".

Now I'm really wishing there were more people like him. I hated his idea but he had the goddamn decency to post on Feedback and get shut down BEFORE just getting it merged and letting people bitch about it for years before someone else takes up the mantle and tries to move it in another direction that may or may not fix things.

As for the "this is haaaard" argument, I see way too much of this attitude. Of all the complex problems that SS13 has been able to address in handling its communities and rules, I think we can manage to not shit up the code and ruin a couple game modes every year. I'd offer more details but the finer points of how that administration hierarchy works here is fucking illuminati-tier material. I have no fucking clue who has authority over coderbus, how coderbus is organized, how coderbus determines its leaders, etc.

Yes, a perfect oversight system made up of unpaid volunteers is never going to happen, but literally anything is better than the current method of "we'll throw shit at the wall and see what sticks, and if it doesn't stick... we leave it there for several months to a year and let someone else clean it up!"

MrStonedOne wrote:
Oldman Robustin wrote:I mean seriously, go look at StonedOne shitposting in my Blob thread below this one. If I complain about something being absurdly strong = "Oldmans just mad he can't powergame to beat it". If I complain about something being too weak = "Oldmans just mad he can't use it to powergame".
I just want you to know, its not that your complaining that causes me to respond that way, its the way you do it.

You just seemed so frustrated and so mad about something you didn't understand, what else could have caused that?

If you could only learn the difference between criticism and throwing a tantrum we could move forward.

To the extent that there's actual anger in anything I'm saying, it's because of the way things are run. If I post long walls of text involving well-reasoned even-keeled analysis I guarantee you about three people will read it, and at best someone will say "hey he's got a point" before being distracted by the round of exchanged insults/hyperboles/shit-throwing. Nothing about this community rewards that type of effort, I'm not even faulting us for it, it's the reality of posting on a forum about 2d spessmen games run by unpaid volunteers. But in recognition of that I've decided that I'd rather be an asshole who can draw attention to things rather than not.

It's also perfectly reasonable to respond to me like I'm an asshole, throw some hostility back - because that's what I'm doing. What I'm not doing (at least to my But tossing out petty bans and making "Lel Oldman is powergayman" comments, especially as the site host, is an indicator that you're on a whole different tier of awfulness. You're not even responding to the salt-bathed substance of my posts, you're just going for some ancient meme I earned that is about as relevant as camera bugs and blind sting in these conversations. If you had even a tenuous grasp of what a complete clusterfuck chemblob is, you'd have some respect for my post and not just use it as an opportunity to play peanut gallery.

Posted: **Thu Jul 02, 2015 5:48 am**

Actionb wrote:This thread is going down the shitter real fast.

xXx420unrailzxXx:
A lot of players are unhappy with the direction the game is heading and feel powerless to do anything about it because to them it seems like their opinions and complaints are only acknowledged by the coders when there's a shitstorm going on.
This is either due to a lack of transparency ('Did he read my post why I think this is a bad idea?') or ignorance ('He read it, but didn't give a fuck.').
Overkill example: the macrobombs thread in the feedback forum.
People were like 'Yay, sounds good for nuke ops!' 'Interesting. Let's try it.' Then goof mentions it's also available on all uplinks and suddenly the general opinion of the feature has turned towards a concerned 'pls no', with people giving legitimate reasons for their doubts. It didn't matter. Granted, the 1tc macrobombs bug has helped to demonstrate the awfulness of macrobombs, but people in the feedback thread knew an undetectable, instant max cap bomb would be disastrous in any scenario. The PR was still hammered through within two days.

Yes, I know, the game wouldn't go anywhere, if every player's wish is granted. We would still be running around at sanic speeds, spraying tasers down entire hallways.
Yes, I know, the coders are in no way whatsoever obligated to pamper all players' needs. Players do not pay them for their coding. But that doesn't mean the coders are entitled to ignore player input so that they can fulfill their vision of what the game is supposed to be and skullfuck every player in the process. Coders have a huge impact on the game and with that comes a need for accountability. Being able to say 'You can't tell me what to do, because I do it for free!' should not grant immunity when what they do affects a lot of other people.

There need to be more feedback threads started by the coders (just copy pasta your PR OP) for major additions that change game balance. If the thread has not turned into PLEASE-DO-NOT-ADD-THIS waterfall of begging tears after maybe up to a week (meaning: NOT two days), sure merge that stuff.
The forum is much better suited for discussion than github, plus it would keep the PRs cleaner and easier to read when most of the commenting about anything not code related is done on the forums.

One of the few posts here I enjoyed reading, even if I don't agree on every point.

Also agree that Github should not be seen as an appropriate place to seek GAMEPLAY feedback. You codefuckers need to accept that the circlejerk you've got going on in there reflects a very tiny sliver of the playerbase that often has a very tiny sliver of experience playing antag/leadership/security - let alone playing the actual game for a stupid amount of hours to the point that you can accurately anticipate what even a modest change will do to gameplay.

It should be a basic common sense principle to reach out to feedback forum before merging balance changes/features/whatever, rather than "TWO OTHER GUYS WHO DONT PLAY THINK MY IDEA IS NEAT MERGE MERGE MERGE MERGE". The sooner you reach out, the sooner you get can a feel for player's attitudes before spending time and energy investing into a big change that you will then defend with blind hostility just because you've now inextricably tied your ego to your pull request.

It shows a pretty clear lack of respect for the playerbase when you're doing shit that turns the game upside down for us, and yet we're the last to find out about it.

Posted: **Thu Jul 02, 2015 6:03 am**

Maybe if people would stop posting balance issues in the issue tracker, we'd stop trying to resolve them?

On the other hand, as far as heirachy code goes, I don't know how coderbus works either, except for the fact that in general, the grumpier you are the more likely to be a maintainer.

Posted: **Thu Jul 02, 2015 9:03 am**

Oldman Robustin wrote:My last memory of Malkevin was "he almost added some terrible changes to cult".

Now I'm really wishing there were more people like him. I hated his idea but he had the goddamn decency to post on Feedback and get shut down BEFORE just getting it merged and letting people bitch about it for years before someone else takes up the mantle and tries to move it in another direction that may or may not fix things.

How ironic then that you were the wire brush down my urethra that made me stop coding.

Posted: **Thu Jul 02, 2015 11:47 am**

Malkevin wrote:
Oldman Robustin wrote:My last memory of Malkevin was "he almost added some terrible changes to cult".

Now I'm really wishing there were more people like him. I hated his idea but he had the goddamn decency to post on Feedback and get shut down BEFORE just getting it merged and letting people bitch about it for years before someone else takes up the mantle and tries to move it in another direction that may or may not fix things.
How ironic then that you were the wire brush down my urethra that made me stop coding.

dude
get that checked out

Posted: **Thu Jul 02, 2015 3:30 pm**

duncathan wrote:
Oldman Robustin wrote:Let's look a this PR from the legendary coder Goofball:

"Krav Maga is a fighting style good for 1 on 1 combat. It's obtainable from the traitor uplink in the form of gloves for 10tc. It's got 3 combos, a Leg Sweep, a Quick Choke, and a Head Elbow."

The post goes on to add details, but at no fucking point actually explains what the fuck a leg sweep, quick choke, or head elbow actually fucking do. For all I know leg sweep throws you into the singularity, quick choke insta-crits you, and head elbow gibs you. Jesus fucking christ how am I supposed to give feedback on this garbage.
Frankly, I'm impressed you managed to miss the big 'ol image at the very top of the PR, dominating the PR and commanding attention that explains all that for you. You really can't blame anyone but yourself for that, man.

e: turns out the images were added after this. regardless, the point stands that they are there.

What point is that? That I was absolutely correct in my complaint that most PR's are indecipherable as to what they're actually proposing?

Posted: **Thu Jul 02, 2015 5:37 pm**

If you make a thread on feedback/ideas and someone shitposts on it, I strongly encourage you to report it. There's still a lot of that shit floating about and not enough people are reporting it.

Posted: **Thu Jul 02, 2015 5:43 pm**

Sorry, I'll say that again more clearly. While you are correct, they weren't there and that is perfectly reasonable cause for concern, the explanation was eventually added. About an hour after your post was made, goof said, so that particular example isn't perfect. I agree though, a lack of explanation isn't good at all. Maybe there should be more emphasis on the "describe your PR thoroughly" bit of coding standards.

Posted: **Thu Jul 02, 2015 5:44 pm**

I want to lock this thread because of rule 7:
7.Please be respectful of other users. You can disagree with someone without being a hostile douchebag.

But I wont as long as after this post no more personal attacks or hostilities occur I want this discussion. Although if anyone is really delivering any such hostilities I will have to decide between locking this thread or warning people specifically depending on how severe it gets. I personally believe there are issues but the hostile attacks should stop and a discussion about specific issues should not spiral into the former.

Everyone here is to play and help develop the game to be more fun for themselves either directly or indirectly.

Posted: **Thu Jul 02, 2015 5:45 pm**

Just delete anyone who shitposts/attacks someone instead of locking the thread.

Posted: **Thu Jul 02, 2015 5:47 pm**

That is what I would prefer but if it gets out of hand while one of the mods aren't active I dont want to delete a whole page at that point it would be better to lock and make a new thread after a short while.

Posted: **Sat Sep 05, 2015 10:30 pm**

Put major changes up for discussion before merging.

It's that fucking simple.

Don't shove shit down our throats and turn it into an uphill battle to tell you whatever you've added is shit.

Don't sneakily change shit for no good reason. Let the community discuss a change before forcing it.

The majority of changes now do not improve the gameplay at all, and it's because Coderbus circlejerks bullshit and then tosses it to us, the player base, without discussion or input.

It is an open source game. Stop avoiding discussion on changes that you want to make.

Posted: **Sat Sep 05, 2015 10:52 pm**

Tunder wrote: It is an open source game. Stop avoiding discussion on changes that you want to make.

You're aware Pull Requests exist right? their entire functionality is to discuss the change before it's merge or closing.
We don't push straight to master, even for hotfixes, meaning a PR always exists, it's a rule + the 24hrs rule, you have a window to discuss.
So as far as I can see it the only one avoiding anything is YOU.

Posted: **Sat Sep 05, 2015 11:08 pm**

Remie Richards wrote:
Tunder wrote: It is an open source game. Stop avoiding discussion on changes that you want to make.
You're aware Pull Requests exist right? their entire functionality is to discuss the change before it's merge or closing.
We don't push straight to master, even for hotfixes, meaning a PR always exists, it's a rule + the 24hrs rule, you have a window to discuss.
So as far as I can see it the only one avoiding anything is YOU.

I have a Github.

Github is shit.

We shouldn't have to come to you to discuss changes you want to make to the game. This forum is the base of operations for the community, not Github.

Everyone posts here. Discuss the changes here. it's that simple. You can make polls and get feedback much simpler in a normal forum than on Github, which has limited scrolling comment functionality.

You hide on Github to avoid having to explain and defend your changes, and your hugboxing is producing poor results because so few of you regularly play the game anymore and you don't get feedback from normal players, you hide on Github and refuse to use the forums, where all of the noncoders are.

Posted: **Sun Sep 06, 2015 12:24 am**

Tunder wrote:
Remie Richards wrote:
Tunder wrote: It is an open source game. Stop avoiding discussion on changes that you want to make.
You're aware Pull Requests exist right? their entire functionality is to discuss the change before it's merge or closing.
We don't push straight to master, even for hotfixes, meaning a PR always exists, it's a rule + the 24hrs rule, you have a window to discuss.
So as far as I can see it the only one avoiding anything is YOU.
I have a Github.

Github is shit.

We shouldn't have to come to you to discuss changes you want to make to the game. This forum is the base of operations for the community, not Github.

Everyone posts here. Discuss the changes here. it's that simple. You can make polls and get feedback much simpler in a normal forum than on Github, which has limited scrolling comment functionality.

You hide on Github to avoid having to explain and defend your changes, and your kickin' rad place to be is producing poor results because so few of you regularly play the game anymore and you don't get feedback from normal players, you hide on Github and refuse to use the forums, where all of the noncoders are.

The people who bother to make the MINIMUM amount of effort to go to the Github and see the PRs, are listened to, and take part in the discussions.
It is not our fault if you refuse to take part.

Posted: **Sun Sep 06, 2015 12:45 am**

Remie Richards wrote:
Tunder wrote:
Remie Richards wrote:
Tunder wrote: It is an open source game. Stop avoiding discussion on changes that you want to make.
You're aware Pull Requests exist right? their entire functionality is to discuss the change before it's merge or closing.
We don't push straight to master, even for hotfixes, meaning a PR always exists, it's a rule + the 24hrs rule, you have a window to discuss.
So as far as I can see it the only one avoiding anything is YOU.
I have a Github.

Github is shit.

We shouldn't have to come to you to discuss changes you want to make to the game. This forum is the base of operations for the community, not Github.

Everyone posts here. Discuss the changes here. it's that simple. You can make polls and get feedback much simpler in a normal forum than on Github, which has limited scrolling comment functionality.

You hide on Github to avoid having to explain and defend your changes, and your kickin' rad place to be is producing poor results because so few of you regularly play the game anymore and you don't get feedback from normal players, you hide on Github and refuse to use the forums, where all of the noncoders are.
The people who bother to make the MINIMUM amount of effort to go to the Github and see the PRs, are listened to, and take part in the discussions.
It is not our fault if you refuse to take part.

I DO go on Github, and thus realize that it is a poor medium for feedback. There is no polling option, and there is no ability to directly reply to posts. It is a poor man's imageboard, and completely dysfunctional when it comes to discussing code before it is merged.

If you are merging code in the game that we play, we shouldn't have to climb Mt. Olympus to appease the pantheon every time we want to discuss changes.

If you want to affect this community, you need to come to where the community is, we should not have to come to you. Otherwise you will continue to commit shit code that breaks the game/was poorly designed/lowers the server quality of life/the playerbase doesn't want and eventually we'll get fed up.

One day before a merge is simply not enough time, major changes should be put on the forum for a week to discuss and poll.

Posted: **Sun Sep 06, 2015 12:51 am**

Tunder wrote:
Remie Richards wrote:
Tunder wrote:
Remie Richards wrote:
Tunder wrote: It is an open source game. Stop avoiding discussion on changes that you want to make.
You're aware Pull Requests exist right? their entire functionality is to discuss the change before it's merge or closing.
We don't push straight to master, even for hotfixes, meaning a PR always exists, it's a rule + the 24hrs rule, you have a window to discuss.
So as far as I can see it the only one avoiding anything is YOU.
I have a Github.

Github is shit.

We shouldn't have to come to you to discuss changes you want to make to the game. This forum is the base of operations for the community, not Github.

Everyone posts here. Discuss the changes here. it's that simple. You can make polls and get feedback much simpler in a normal forum than on Github, which has limited scrolling comment functionality.

You hide on Github to avoid having to explain and defend your changes, and your kickin' rad place to be is producing poor results because so few of you regularly play the game anymore and you don't get feedback from normal players, you hide on Github and refuse to use the forums, where all of the noncoders are.
The people who bother to make the MINIMUM amount of effort to go to the Github and see the PRs, are listened to, and take part in the discussions.
It is not our fault if you refuse to take part.
I DO go on Github, and thus realize that it is a poor medium for feedback. There is no polling option, and there is no ability to directly reply to posts. It is a poor man's imageboard, and completely dysfunctional when it comes to discussing code before it is merged.

If you are merging code in the game that we play, we shouldn't have to climb Mt. Olympus to appease the pantheon every time we want to discuss changes.

If you want to affect this community, you need to come to where the community is, we should not have to come to you. Otherwise you will continue to commit shit code that breaks the game/was poorly designed/lowers the server quality of life/the playerbase doesn't want and eventually we'll get fed up.

One day before a merge is simply not enough time, major changes should be put on the forum for a week to discuss and poll.

If you visited the Github or chose not to cherry pick your statements here you'd know that the ACTUAL Major changes don't get merged in one day, they tend to stay up for atleast 5+ days.
Github is used as it's where all the discussion of code happens outside of Coderbus, it's the literal closest place to the codebase, and it's tools for commenting on code changes are much better than the forum However yes, polling is arse, Gitlab has a system to automatically count the number of thumbs up (+1) and thumbs down (-1) a PR has for a rough scale of reaction, It's the only feature of Gitlab I wished we had with Github.
On the forums, we don't have control over posts, and so can't stop OBVIOUSLY knee-jerk reactions to things from spiralling into week long threads that circle around and end up nowhere, with control over the Issue reports we can filter down redundancy (Duplicate issues) and such.
As for "Climbing to mount Olympus" it's one URL, you obviously have one link/bookmark/shortcut/URL to get to these forums, so why is the Github one INFINITELY hard to reach according to your claims of it being the distance from earth and the palace of the gods?
Github allows us to get -good- feedback, where would you rather us go? Singulo? No, OOC? God No, the Forums? Some of us do! but it's no surprise people tend to stick to what they're most familiar with, people have invested in Github because it's required to push their changes to the game, so they're obviously more willing to stick around and interact there.

Posted: **Sun Sep 06, 2015 1:40 am**

github isn't that bad

Posted: **Sun Sep 06, 2015 1:50 am**

Thing about github PRs is that you're commenting on code that already exists, so the coder is going to fight tooth and nail to get it merged atleast mostly intact.

As opposed to making a thread saying "Hey I'm thinking of making x changes", which gives an opportunity for people to go "hell no thats fucking dumb"

Posted: **Sun Sep 06, 2015 2:00 am**

Tunder wrote:There is no polling option

http://www.strawpoll.me

Tunder wrote:and there is no ability to directly reply to posts.

Tunder wrote:If you are merging code in the game that we play, we shouldn't have to climb Mt. Olympus to appease the pantheon every time we want to discuss changes.

I made a guide on how to make issue reports, and it includes a "making a github account" section.

Tunder wrote:One day before a merge is simply not enough time, major changes should be put on the forum for a week to discuss and poll.

Something that we could make is a robot to automatically make a forum thread with the PR description/commits in the OP each time a PR is made.

/tg/Station 13

Can we change how coderbus operates?

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