/tg/Station 13

Bottom post of the previous page:

Cheridan wrote:

lumipharon wrote:There are other ways to get some of these changes done, without radically changing the layout of medbay.

Such as?

I literally made my suggestion in my first post. This change (ignoring genetics for a moment) is
A: making morgue smaller
B: Making chem larger

My suggestion, as stated before, was instead of moving everything around, keep the morgue where it is but make either the morgue, the mech bay (actually thinking about it, that wouldn't work so well, but you could reduce that storage room between the morgue and mech bay instead) or both a bit narrower. (Meta station also just made the mech bay smaller, and frankly it doesn't really need to be very large, just big enough to move a couple of mechs around)

This would then let you cut and paste the whole medbay foyer/secpost area slightly east, which means you can then fill the gap by making chem slightly wider.
If you want a 3rd chem slot, with this wider chemistry, you could have a north facing chem post, facing the corridor. This would mean you would have 3 chemistry posts, all with their own windoors/desks, rather then 1 between them, where the other two chemists would have to bump past the 3rd to get to it, which is awful and annoying.


Having chemistry where the morgue currently is, doesn't make any logical sense. The cloning lab deals with corpses, so is close to the morgue. Chemistry (usually) deals with injured people, who come to the lobby. With the proposed changes, you have 2 seperate lobby's, meaning if someone is looking to get healed, then rather then going to one catch all location, they have to go between two to get help. What is the reasoning behind this? What benefit is there in doing this?
Literally the ONLY reason I can think of in putting chemistry on the east side of medbay, is to let it connect to science like genetics does, because goonstation has chemistry as part of science not medical, and we're just porting their thing.

The layout of genetics as is, is already basically as good as you can expect. It's reasonably compact and right next to the morgue.
The argument that corpses should just be DUMPED DOWN DISPOSALS is quite seriously retarded. Now SS13 isn't the most realistic game, but holy shit, who the fuck would just be flushing corpses down the bin when you have a room DESIGNED SPECIFICALLY to hold them right there, which also serves as a corpse access point for other jobs?


Edit: Here's a 5 seconds in map editor alteration, to show what I mean. This gives extra space in chemistry for more tables or whatever to juggling around, or whatever the issue was with current chemistry, but the overall layout is completely the same.

lumipharon wrote:

Cheridan wrote:

lumipharon wrote:There are other ways to get some of these changes done, without radically changing the layout of medbay.

Such as?

lots of stuff

My bad, I missed your first post. You make a lot of good points. I agree that is better solution than what was proposed here. I'll talk to goof and allura about nudging the map like you suggest and maybe we can still run with some of the ideas they proposed in the process of this, like the extra chemist job slot or toxins misc testing access.

The problem with access to the misc lab, while not a bad idea, is that you'll either need to RADICALLY alter the layout of science and/or medbay, or give chemists science access. Or quite possibly both.
For reasons that still allude me, R&D no longer has internal airlocks. This means it's really easy for shitters to come into R&D and fuck about/print shit off. By extension, this would also let chemists do the same thing. Aka: walk into R&D and print off bluespace beakers for ebin bomb cap nades.

Actually now that I think about it, wasn't the reason for the airlock removal something along the lines of letting roboticists get access to it? Should our current system of extra access with lowpop make this a now redundant change?

If I had to make a choice it would be option two.

However, and I still stand by my point of view (since this was brought up months ago) that I disagree with this change. I know Allura has been pushing to get Chemistry out of Medbay for some time, and I respectfully disagree. Not to mention this is simply making things more inconvenient for everyone, since instead of the main medbay entrance having MD's and the Chemists on standby, now you have to go to one of two difference entrances for either service.

I voted option 2. My only problem with it is the inner medbay desk is in a tight mini corridor and that looks like shit and could also be problematic. Needs more space there. Also the reinforced walls should be regular walls.

Why does chemistry need purple tiles, that's dumb. Chemistry isn't a research department, but genetics is, and it has blue tiles???

Miauw wrote:Why does chemistry need purple tiles, that's dumb. Chemistry isn't a research department, but genetics is, and it has blue tiles???

This was addressed earlier in the thread (we'll vote on it later).

I was pleasantly surprised to wake up and see the quality of discussion skyrocket, thanks guys.

I don't like either of these options. If Chemistry must be expanded, Lumi's proposal makes by far the most sense. I think option 1 is worse than option 2, but since I don't want either of them I don't understand why I should vote for either of them.

I don't like option 1 for a few reasons. Genetics suddenly has no division between research and cloning, which it needs if you don't want every clone interrupting the researchers to bug them for powers. It also suddenly has no easy way to get into medbay proper, as the access button lets you out into the main corridor. Most clones require immediate cryo tubing unless the cloner has been fully upgraded. That means now a doctor will have to either hope the geneticist throws them in there, or run right around the outside of medbay to give them a basic and immediate treatment. It also confuses where bodies should go: do we store them in front of the desk, hoping to push them in, or do we store them just to the south of the lab? You'll see a split in where they go, and if they end up being stored above genetics, well, suddenly there'll be a lot less chance of early revivals through defibrillation as well.

Meanwhile, in option 1 chemistry becomes inaccessible to anyone who isn't well inside medbay. Despite sharing a wall with science, it doesn't have any access point there. Given a bunch of people want things from the chemist, including botanists, scientists, roboticists, and occasionally people like bartenders or engineers, this isn't going to be very helpful. A crowded medbay is not effective for healing and it annoys the people trying to heal inside it. Finally this option makes it very easy for chemists to hide from anyone that wants them. It's tough enough getting a response sometimes anyway from those guys and this removes the way to get their attention.

I also have some problems with option 2. First off, you've split the medbay lobby. Now people need to work out if they want stuff from chemistry or stuff from doctors when they need treatment. This varies depending on the competence of those in the round, so now you've sent sick people to go visit two locations instead of just the one. At least you could shove the security office to the left and unify those areas. Second, the genetics lab is suddenly missing a ton of monkeys. They actually use these things, it's not like virology where they're mostly decoration/testing. Genetics can reasonably expect to use four or so monkeys if things aren't going well or if they don't have chemist providing useful medicine. Certainly limiting them to just two is pretty rubbish, since it's definitely not impossible for some of the monkeys to die. Here I can't see a way for clones to get out of the lab at all, which sucks if the geneticist has left, and again there's no division between research genetics and cloning genetics. The chemistry interior window is also awkwardly placed: standing in that cramped corridor is unnecessary when you could just squeeze the security office a little by removing the bottom two tiles from it. It's not like that area needs masses of space, since it isn't used for much more than the occasional search and console use, and if it does need more space you could expand it westwards or shove it across the lobby, next to the morgue. The genetics/science/maintenance airlock is now suddenly ridiculously small at one tile large. That area I've seen used a lot, and it fills a purpose. Why make it pointless?

In both option 1 and 2, the morgue's position and layout is unnecessarily made sub optimal. The morgue is a useful room for three people: geneticists (to dump bodies), roboticists (to dump bodies), and the chef (to pick up bodies). it has a constant flow of traffic through it in a busy round and is well used, even if the trays aren't normally all full until the chef goes braindead. In both these options the roboticist totally loses their quick maintenance access there, making them even less likely to dispose of bodies properly. The geneticist also loses the swift access across a lobby: they'll now need to drag it all the way across medbay, and since most of them, as before, won't use body bags you'll see much bigger corresponding blood trails every shift. And less productive geneticists, of course. For the chef, it's just mildly less convenient as it's a longer walk, though mostly this isn't an issue. To those people suggesting disposal of bodies, that's stupid:it means the chef has much less access to them. And in case anyone suggests the roboticists get their own small morgue the problem is the same (that, and the fact that the roboticist produces a wildly varying amount of corpses, sometimes filling up a massive amount of the general morgue). Meanwhile, the morgue's layout could easily have double the amount of trays without moving anything except an atmospherics scrubber. With that in mind, why bother with the empty space? The morgue filling up isn't that unusual, whatever you might think, because sometimes the chef isn't available to take the meat.

The fact that both of these are being presented apparently in exclusion of two better alternatives (do nothing, or shrink the morgue to make current chemistry fatter) is ridiculous. To those suggesting this is a vote on which is better, and then that we'll vote on usage later, that's not the poll's question even if it is the intent. The question is "which layout should be used". Which very much suggests that it will be added if we don't make it clear we don't like either.

Great post. I think it's been consensus for a while that the separation between the clone bay and research lab should be removed, as it makes it more difficult for clones with brain damage/defects to get healed. I don't honestly think your example would be a common issue.

I must agree that Lumi's sounds like the best option. If access to the testing lab is a concern (and I would love to see this), put in an access tunnel or airlock to the room and code it to Chem access.

Hmm, you know if you move the sec post next to the new morgue you could make a combined medbay/chem waiting area and not waste those tiles for the chem-only waiting area.

Also need to put the emergency storage in a new area since it was removed by the change.

2 space monkey cage? Really?

Option 1 is better but... no.

voted for chem top.
the morgue could have another column of containers, but you'd have to move that scrubber and probably its pipes. alternatively, trim it down so you can have more room instead of an abnormally large morgue.

it pains me to say this, but if the eventual goal is to have chem have easy access to misc sci for testing, BOTH departments are going to have to be shuffled up pretty good. They literally couldn't be further from each other given the deparmental layouts right now.

It might be faster and less painful just to take some chunks out of the patient rooms/virology and make "misc med" for them.

There's a monkey cube box in Genetics on both maps for if you run out of monkeys.

The thing about the monkey pen is that genetics and the monkey pen were in 4407, which predates monkey cubes. It just keeps getting ported in map changes. If we wanted to save space we could just give you an extra cube box and remove the pen all together.

iamgoofball wrote:There's a monkey cube box in Genetics on both maps for if you run out of monkeys.

The thing about the monkey pen is that genetics and the monkey pen were in 4407, which predates monkey cubes. It just keeps getting ported in map changes. If we wanted to save space we could just give you an extra cube box and remove the pen all together.

Pen's a good place to hide bodies (turned into monkeys) for traitor geneticists, so I say we keep it.

There's too much unused room in Lumi's edit, making a room bigger without adding any more content to it is fairly pointless unless its seriously cramped. It also does not solve the issue of a more explosive chemistry department severely damaging the medbay lobby and main hallway, both of which are very high traffic areas.

Again, I see no valid reason why Option 2 is not superior to our current chemistry layout. Its a little too fortified but aside from that and a few other nitpicks its fine. Its location would be more accessible to other jobs that require chemistry while at the same time they could still serve medbay.

If there is concern that a single chemist wouldn't be able to handle public demand, I would add a second, public smart-fridge at the public desk, so that the chemists could keep it stocked without needing to be there 24/7.

All I did was make it 2 tiles wider. You could make it 1 tile wider, leave it as it is or alter it in some other way. I just did it to show that chem can be expanded without moving everything around for no particular reason. That was just my suggestion for a larger chem, since supposedly it's cramped (what do you need more room for even?)

Moving chemistry like this makes no logical sense. It turns a single lobby into two. What does this achieve? All it means is you have two locations to go to instead of one.
IF (and I do mean if) you want to split them like this, then it would be more logical to make a donut style medbay lobby. I have issues with that lobby's functionality as well, but atleast it looks nice. Option 2 has practicality issues and isn't asthetically very nice either.

Who and why would you want cloning and genetics to be in a single room? Cloning often gets heavy traffic, and people WILL take power/disability SE's from genetics if they can. Having randoms get hulk is fun for no one but the greytiders. Also having random chucklefucks wandering into your workplace for no reason, or to loot it, is seriously the most awful fucking shit.

Also as said before, chemistry is a part of medbay, not science. This isn't goonstation.
Your options are either reshuffle the two departments very heavily, or be a scientist and you can unlock everything you need for chemistry in about 5 minutes at most (you'll have to steal a condi/chem master though. Why aren't those buildable again?) then you're free to use the testing lab in your department.

Having chemistry physically closer to the botanist and science makes their lives easier, and medbay still has direct access to the chemists desk.

I enjoy option 2 because it gives the feeling that each chemist can have his own workstation a little more than how current chemistry is laid out. If one chemist wants to provide basic stuff for the public or lay out pills for everyone, they are free to use the public workstation. If another chemist wants to work on his own super-pills that take time and doesn't want to be bothered all the time, he can use a more private work station. It doesn't cut anyones efficiency and gives chemists more breathing room.

I've also said that genetics does need to be split, but thats not a change to chemistry so I'm not even sure hows thats entirely relevant. That can be fixed by elongating genetics a little more and adding R-Windows to split the rooms.

I wasn't only replying to your post, just saying that genetics is divided for a reason, so when vektor says the 'consensus' is to remove the divide, I don't know who actually wants that, or why.

Chemistry being 20 steps closer to botany (science doesn't even need it; if you haven't maxed out research or atleast have a chem dispenser with the acid you start with you're pretty bad) is a pretty shallow argument against the logical use of a single lobby. But image if you would, that we moved the morgue and chemistry like in option 2. Why would we not simply move the lobby itself to where the little chem lobby is? There is simply no logic to having them seperate, it's bad design.

In regards to chemists not wanting to be bothered, I don't know why chemistry doesn't have shutters. R&D and robotics have them, where as chem is far easier to abuse by some greytider walking by. (robotics requires materials research and time to make a mech, R&D needs pins to give working weapons, chem you can make mega death nades in 10 seconds)

We had a thread asking to have a public access fridge at chem, but someone(s) didn't like it, so nothing ever happened. It is a very good idea however, since it means chemists aren't forced to just clogging their desk with 50 pills and patches.

Edit: The 'easiest' way I can think of, for giving chemists access to the testing lab would be this.
1: Swap the location of the testing lab and xenobio. You might need to rejig the layouts/move maint shit around a little, to not fuck with them too much.
2: Make a maint access tunnel thing (like the genetics - science one) from the lower medbay maint door to the testing lab.
3: Make the medbay door medbay access and the testing lab door science OR chemistry access.

Then chemists (regardless of where they are situated in medbay) can wander down with their kill grenades, and access the testing lab without accessing the rest of science - namely the completely exposed R&D.
As a side note though, not sure if it's intended, but you can get access to toxins (specifically the valves) by going through 2 normal walls from maint, via the testing lab firing range/target storage.

Here's another QUALITY map edit, to show what I mean. Obviously this isn't perfect/exactly what it might change to, but you get the idea.

At this point really medical and science layout needs a overhaul if chemistry wants access to testing lab and genetics stay connected while keeping the morgue in a good place. While not making one tiny area of the station a huge bomb target again like we used to way back when chemistry was left of R&D and above cloning. Which both these suggestions give.

The issue is much deeper and we are forgetting some things which affected a lot of rounds back when that occured. Not to mention a great rivalry with the RD and CMO may appear again if chems become useful to science more and more as changes appear.

Especially forgetting thst maybe we could rework it so genetics is down just below cryo to the right (where the patient rooms are) and make the science and medical connection a more hallway lock deal akin to metacides secondary access points on meta.

Add at least 1 r-window to the east side of the sec records console on the checkpoint.

Remove all the windows and doors leading to genetics from the main hallway in option one. It's supposed to be difficult to break into cloning.

Also both options are shit, goonchem revert when?

I think a good question is do we need or want this change in the first place?

The main reason for this change, that goofball has stated in irc clearly, but has failed to do that here as clearly:

Chemistry in its current location getting blown up takes out:

Captains office
Bridge
Bar
Medbay lobby
Two primary hallways via air lost
The main power distribution wire
The main air distribution pipe

He feels that moving chemistry to a location where they won't take out so much when they explode from chem accidents is needed before he finishes his current PR that gives chemistry some new chemicals.

What kind of explosions can someone ""accidently"" create in Chemistry? If its large enough to blow up half the station by accident, then the question should be not on the location of Chemistry but the amount of destruction someone can accidently create.

If Chemistry really becomes that dangerous, why not combine it with Virology into one big Bio-Chemistry department.

Or with Toxins, the department that is supposed to research the properties of plasma directly (which apparently include being a catalyst to several chemicals).

Also, isn't slapping it right next to genetics going to make explosions there also annoying? Especially if people die in the wreckage?

MrStonedOne wrote:The main reason for this change, that goofball has stated in irc clearly, but has failed to do that here as clearly:

Chemistry in its current location getting blown up takes out:

Captains office
Bridge
Bar
Medbay lobby
Two primary hallways via air lost
The main power distribution wire
The main air distribution pipe

He feels that moving chemistry to a location where they won't take out so much when they explode from chem accidents is needed before he finishes his current PR that gives chemistry some new chemicals.

But Chemistry can't even cause an explosion big enough to do that without bluespace beakers.
Chem rarely gets ttv bombed, and syndie bomb is 10/10 obvious anywhere near there.

So how often does this happen? I've almost never seen chem get actually bombed.

Goof just added some new explosive stuff that's pretty fucking robust.

blackpowder is already nerfed, after I used it to gib the shit out of everyone repeatedly with a shotgun, and specifically asked for it to get nerfed in it's own PR.

With 2 large beakers, you can't even make a 2,3,5 grenade. And that's small anyway.
Pre nerf I could make bomb cap nades using the 30u bottles from the chem master in a couple of minutes. Shit was hilarious.

Big problem with both options: there's nowhere to put corpses, and the sole trolleys that could be used in fun ways (telekinesis) or a temporary storage area are gone. Where the hell do people tug them to queue for cloning, the door? So basically genetics will be even more of a loot free-for-all? Not too fond of having genetics in one single room as well, given that people will constantly be coming to and fro to the goddamn cloner it makes the area even more insecure than it was previously, and you'll have fresh clones running up to consoles and stealing all the powers while you're working to be faggots. Plus, the door would ostensibly have a release button, so genetics would effectively be made entirely all-access like what happens every round, which is goddamn dumb.

Also, there's a major problem with the poll: there's no option for 'leave it as-is'.

Vekter wrote:Goof just added some new explosive stuff that's pretty fucking robust.

If its so robust that its causing severe damage more than a few tiles away with standard sized beakers BY ACCIDENT then maybe there are some balance issues that should be looked at before implementing them. Chemistry is already almost as lethal as toxins, a department 100% dedicated to putting holes in the station.

Really I think the biggest plus that the current chemistry layout has is anyone walking into medbay has an eye on the chemists. Both the options on the poll give the chemists much greater privacy. If they're getting a buff in lethality they NEED those eyes on them. If science wants to do chemistry to test bombs build a chem dispenser, implement chem-master boards and or just give chemistry Sci access and *gasp* make them walk through the hallways to get to science.

Chemistry needs to be easy accesible to people who will often ask for some chemicals like botanists, janitors etc., therfore I vote option 2. I don't like how its shaped though, that little empty area between sec checkpoint and chemistry desk looks kind of odd.

I'd rather Lumi's proposals to the map be added, rather than any of the offered two map changes, if change absolutely had to occur.

I say this because boxstation is the result of years of tweaking and it's matured into a map that just works. It's intuitive, things are convenient, and the general layout is pleasing enough on the eye. Lumi's changes preserve that feeling while addressing the issues that caused this proposed layout change.

I agree with imblyings. Could we get a poll option for Lumi's layout?

Since that would reset the poll (same justification for not adding a 'I don't like either' option), it seems unlikely.

At this point with the clear consesnsus we have so far can we at least see if Goofball's prepared to edit his option 2 to make it more palatable to the players?

Can we get a yield on these chemistry mishaps what would bore through rwalls on the other side of the hall?

A x2 large beaker black powder nade is 1,4,7 (unless it rounds to the closest full number, then it would be 2,4,7).

This is refering to not-yet merged changes, not black powder and the like. no idea what goof has in store, but hey apparently, hes holding back on the medbay changes and just making this something for science/toxins to fuck with some how.

Can you fit a mirror into genetics somewhere, regardless of which change goes through? We might as well get something good out of these awful redesigns.

https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/8401
>Chemistry Lab for Science

So since moving chemistry is so unpopular instead the new clever plan is to just duplicate chemistry into science.
Welcome to goonstation, enjoy your stay.

I vote option 2!

This isn't goonstation goofball jesus
But seriously, moving chemistry into science as well makes no sense and is a bad idea. Think about how what you change will effect other parts of the game please. If you want chemists to be able to test grenades then connect it to the testing lab somehow, but chemist and scientist are two separate jobs and should remain as such. also this really isnt goonstation fuck

e: Elaboration on my view: Goofball, what you're trying to put into science legitimately looks like something I'd think to find on an admin z-level. Even if you toned it down a bit to one chem dispenser it would still be a god awful idea. I, and I'm sure everyone, understands that you are incredibly enthusiastic about goonchem and pyrotechnics but what you are doing is literally changing the map so that a job which isn't even related to chemistry has chemistry access so that they can test out your new toys. Please keep your chem/sci bias away from github while you're making changes if you can't make actual good changes.

PS. I had an idea for a medbay redesign. Switch current genetics with current chemistry, switch xenobio with the misc testing lab and then connect chem to the testing lab with a tunnel or something. With this design and a little bit of effort I'm fairly sure chemistry could end up connected to the testing lab while remaining in medical, you just have to fit a table to the hall in somewhere.

Connecting chem to the testing lab with a tunnel is as simple as giving chemists the relevant accesses so they can go through maintenance.

Putting chemistry dispensers in science where they're literally about as hidden as you can get without being in maintenance is just asking for villainy. How is anyone going to keep track of what they're making if it's away from anyone's obvious view? I can't see this being a good idea.

Cheimon wrote:Connecting chem to the testing lab with a tunnel is as simple as giving chemists the relevant accesses so they can go through maintenance.

Putting chemistry dispensers in science where they're literally about as hidden as you can get without being in maintenance is just asking for villainy. How is anyone going to keep track of what they're making if it's away from anyone's obvious view? I can't see this being a good idea.

Thats kind of the point. It reinforces the idea that science is supposed to make chemicals for themselves, not replace medbays chemistry. As to its security, its vulnerability is kind of a good thing since it gives traitors a greater chance to exploit chemicals and poisons. Also, is department security not a thing anymore? If your that concerned with it, patrol it from time to time.

Its getting harder and harder for me not to just post sarcasm and flames.

I'm just not seeing a reason for all these changes. A chemist who wants to test a death mix grenade can go to the HoP for science access. A scientist who wants to test chemicals can build a chem dispenser with a little RnD work. If we really want to make chemistry medsci couldn't we just give chemists standard sci access and let them use their legs and the hallways? God forbid the squishy chemist has to walk out in the dark grey halls with the peasantry. They absolutely NEED a safety tunnel straight to the testing lab so they can avoid gazing upon the assistant filth.

Latest proposed change, be sure to leave helpful and constructive criticism on how goddamn awful it would be to pull monkeys across that full length of space wasted in xenobiology.

All because goofchem.

Hey man, I just posted that to say 'there's space to fit xenobio if you move it'. Also I posted something mildly less retarded after that, but I'm sure someone that knows what they're doing could design something nicer with the space.
I'm no mapper.

Not a fan of that xenobiology layout, 3 cells facing 3 cells allows you to see what the slimes are up to much more easily. Plus 3v3 means you don't have to drag things as far, which is good because xenobiology is almost entirely about that.

Why can't you just give chemists science and testing lab access? They don't even need dispensers there.

EDIT: my comments apply to the one just before Lumi's.

My EYES ARE BLEEDING
WHAT am I looking at here?
I'll tell you: Denial, and goofball acting like paprika and trying to punish us for shooting down his chemistry to sci goon idea.
Also, thanks lumi, for unfucking it a bit.
Constructive criticism:
This is not an appropriate or needed change. Your screwing over xenobiology to add something to Science that we already have elsewhere.

Like I said, I would rather nothing change at all, but I would prefer a layout change as opposed to duplicating chem into sci.

Why would you remove a chemist's ability to do something other than synthflesh patches and charcoal pills for 1h?
If scientists want a chem dispenser they can simply make it, it doesn't take long.

OliveOil wrote:Why would you remove a chemist's ability to do something other than synthflesh patches and charcoal pills for 1h?
If scientists want a chem dispenser they can simply make it, it doesn't take long.

There's more net fun from a scientist spending 30 minutes mixing chemicals than 10 minutes doing R&D, 5 minutes building the machine, ad 15 minutes mixing chemicals. Per round. So with just 6 rounds that's 1.5 hours of additional fun. Of course it's not really a fair comparison because someone else might do R&D instead, but that's not the point.

That's also under the assumption that sciency chemical mixing is going to be a) interesting in and of itself and b) more interesting than R&D and construction. The former isn't guaranteed by any stretch and the latter is not a safe assumption for the construction, but I highly doubt you'd find anyone defending R&D. It's all up to player preference at the end of the day but I think most people would find doing something more interesting than preparing to do it.