/tg/Station 13

Bottom post of the previous page:

Replace sleepers with Smart-IV stands. Smart-IV stands can hold 200 units of chemicals, their output rate can be adjusted (1-5 units of chemical every 3 seconds for instance) and can be set to beep when certain chemicals in the bloodstream reach user determined thresholds. Smart-IVs only work on patients laying down. They start with 200 units of tricord.

Bam. Done. Sleepers replaced with something much better. Patients have to actually stay a while to get any appreciable chemicals, its not infinite chemicals like the sleeper, and fun can occur when MDs realize the clown has replaced their tricord/ryetalyn mix with space cola and space drugs.

Jacquerel wrote:what if sleepers only worked on people who are full of sleep toxin

That shit would be a nightmare. Sleeptox takes fucking ages to work out, and it totally negates the niche sleepers currently fill (fast healan) and shove it into cryo's territory (slow healan).

My opinion continues to be that semi-permanent debuffs are what's needed to make med docs an actual job. They need to be common enough that there's a constant supply of them to be fixed, but not so easily gained that Med isn't horrifyingly swamped in them. They also need to be easy enough to clear up that the assumed semi-competent docs can get rid of them/process people fairly quickly. So, I guess that's what Baymed is?

Of course, that'd presumably be a ridiculous assload of work to get it in-game. OR a straight port, which of course went so great the last time someone ported baymed right?

I play chemist a lot, and I watch doctors a lot.

Removing the sleepers will put a lot more work onto chemists (for better or worse), and still leaves doctor's with a thumb up their ass. You're basically proposing doctor's go from 'button pushers' to 'pill couriers', with chemistry doing all the work.

The issue is that all damage in this game is fixed via chemicals. Literally all of it.
If we ported and modified baymed to suit our server, it would mean that chemicals, and by extension sleepers, and the scourge that is click2heal bruisepacks/ointment (or patches now I supposed) will no longer be the end all.
The doctors would ACTUALLY have something to do, and if faggots have a cry about having to go have surgery for 5 minutes instead of cryo for 5 minutes, they can go do ghetto surgery in maint or whatever the fuck.

Either way you go, paramedics/first responders still have their role which is good, but their role in the medbay itself is pretty limited while chemicals can quickly heal any and all damage.

Edit: And before the inevitable horde starts about 'not wanting 30 minutes of surgery from a toolbox hit', yes, in literally every baymed discussion ever, it has been established we wouldn't port baymed AS IS, just the overall system. Also maybe people won't be willing to risk themselves to the point of near suicidal behavior if they knew full health wasn't a button away.

I think with sleeper changes until we get used to chem changes.

If you're going to remove or hinder sleepers in an effort to make doctors use their medical supplise then give doctors a better way to replenish medical supplies. Maybe they can get cellulose from botany for bruisepacks and use asteroid-sand to make ointment.

But I also agree that the problem is, to a lesser extent, a product of a very simple medical system- and it's a tricky thing to balance with regards to pacing versus relevance, as discussed here. For what it's worth, when I play doctor I usually use ointment and bruisepacks for localized damage but often find myself using the sleepers or tricord injections if you have damage spread out across the body with something like six damage per part (because it sucks trying to treat, say, across-the-body burns and brute from space exposure with friggin' bruisepacks and ointment.)

If I were to come up with something off the top of my head I'd say raise the health threshold of sleeper treatment from critical to something like 50%-70% so it's useful for minor, outpatient-type things. Or maybe make it so it's only functional in treating treating up to 10% per body part. But all of these are just workarounds to the bigger design fluke that injuries are very linear and uninteresting, and treatment follows suit.

I'm cool with sleepers being locked or even removed. If they are locked or even removed, miners will have even less of a choice of being forced to walk all the way back to medical from the asteroid; so if you change up how sleepers are add some medkit to the other two outposts to compensate

Metafive wrote:If you're going to remove or hinder sleepers in an effort to make doctors use their medical supplise then give doctors a better way to replenish medical supplies. Maybe they can get cellulose from botany for bruisepacks and use asteroid-sand to make ointment.

Goonchem allows us to make single use bruisepacks/ointments. It's an annoying clusterfuck mixing 2 premix chems and 3 dispenser chems to make one patch worth using, but it can be done. Ask your local pharmacist if silver sulfa and styptic are right for you. Not for internal use. Seek a doctor if you experience death after using these chemicals, as this may be a sign you need to git gud.

Medical crates are cheap as shit in cargo and I often order one in advance if I have a few extra points.

A first aid crate is 10 points and it comes with 4 medkits. Thats usually enough for every doctor to get at least one new medkit. Each specialty medkit is still only 10 points and carries 3 specialty medkits.

Seriously. Medkits are a dime a dozen.

Loonikus wrote:Seriously. Medkits are a dime a dozen.

That is absolutely not a good thing if we want medkits to be the primary thing that makes doctors special. If we are talking removing sleepers then basic medkits will probably need a nerf and doctors will need to get an "advanced medkit" that doesn't run out of supplies or something. This is the primary effect of baymed people want anyway, basic healing supplies everyone can get don't do very much and only doctors can dole out serious healing. It isn't too fancy until you get to bloodloss (Which is an awful mechanic. 0/10 tier) and bone breaking (Which is interesting but needs to be treatable faster and without doctors somehow).

dezzmont wrote:

fleure wrote:so baymed when

We had baymed.

Baymed is worse than /tg/med. At least you can keep playing after being punched in /tg/med

We can(and should) alter it so that it takes more than a disposals ride/petefight to get seriously injured. We can take features from baymed without a direct port.

Hmmm, on the subject of broken bones, why not splints? You attach it to the offending limb, and the bone damage heals after X time, and moving around too much will cancel the effect (like moving more than 10 tiles in a second or two or something, or moving with the run intent instead of walking). If you have multiple breaks and want them treated fast you can still get surgery, but there's another way to treat it, it's just kinda shitty.

Better yet, lower the effectiveness of premade bruise packs and ointments. That way, everyone with a medkit can heal a little while medical personnel have access to surgery, cryo, and most importantly immediate access to advanced medicine from chemistry.

Besides, if we gave MDs a special super-kit, than cargo should be able to order more, which brings us right back to where we started.

And ya, I like the idea of splints as an inferior but more available alternative to surgery.

baymed does have the red medkits that doctors spawn with instead of the normal white ones, they contain advanced bruise and burn kits and a splint. Each doctor spawns with one, 2 in storage, and science can make more packs with medical research. Perhaps to keep cargonians out of it, the crates are locked, or each crate only has one or 2 kits to keep them from hoarding them.

I wouldn't mind 'advanced' bruise packs/ointment that are at the level of current ones being gated in special MD kits, while greatly reduced ones come in standard departmental medkits. ID-locked crate for more advanced kits would be required to prevent le powergame cargo men from flooding the station with special kits.

Or we could make limited doctor supplies an obsolete mechanic.

I think the consensus is that doctors really should be limited more about medical capacity per trip out of medbay right? But at the same time limiting the total healing medbay as a whole can ever provide outside of medbay doesn't make a ton of sense. Sort of like how we don't require security to reload from cargo outside of special equipment, and instead allow them to recharge their weapons.

What if medics were given advanced medical gear for the field that can be recharged? Think star trek medical tricorders and such? I mean our medical system is already heavily medical inspired from the CMO's outfit and the hypospray to most chemicals. That way medics still can't carry infinite healing out into the world but no longer have supply and logistical issues across the entire department that serves no real function.

Have it sit somewhat ahead of current medical packs. Reduce the power of existing packs as well, and keep chemicals as the most advanced healing option. Then make it so the sleeper can be loaded with chems to allow people in medbay to rapidly deploy complex mixes and have cryo require fewer to no chemicals to operate at a baseline effect. How does that sound to people?

As for breaking bones in disposals, god no. A broken limb in baycode is the woooorst thing and should not happen because someone stunned you and disposaled you as a joke. If we want to prevent easy disposal rides we could just make it so turns deal very minor brute damage, but I think that creative disposal play is great for the atmos job and creating a fast travel across the station is a fine goal.

Ointment heal for 50 damage instantly right now. cutting that in half is 25/20 points instantly, which is on par with what kelotane does(or tricord), while the advanced kit would be on par with dermaline/current ointment.

Anyone have any complaints about this?

Snakebutt wrote:Ointment heal for 50 damage instantly right now. cutting that in half is 25/20 points instantly, which is on par with what kelotane does(or tricord), while the advanced kit would be on par with dermaline/current ointment.

Anyone have any complaints about this?

I still think recharging the medkit is a bigger improvement to some problems with medical code, but that sounds alright.

dezzmont wrote:

Snakebutt wrote:Ointment heal for 50 damage instantly right now. cutting that in half is 25/20 points instantly, which is on par with what kelotane does(or tricord), while the advanced kit would be on par with dermaline/current ointment.

Anyone have any complaints about this?

I still think recharging the medkit is a bigger improvement to some problems with medical code, but that sounds alright.

So, those scifi light scanning things that close wounds, have to be recharged? Don't see how it would work for suffocation or toxin, but it's not a bad idea at all.
EDIT: this thing

Snakebutt wrote:Ointment heal for 50 damage instantly right now. cutting that in half is 25/20 points instantly, which is on par with what kelotane does(or tricord), while the advanced kit would be on par with dermaline/current ointment.

Anyone have any complaints about this?

I still like the idea of chemistry being responsible for supplying improved medical supplies instead of giving MDs a free pass, but I could live with that too.

I just don't like the idea of medbay having free, readily available infinite medical supplies. I think it would just reproduce the same issue as sleepers had except with even less clicks.

Snakebutt wrote:Ointment heal for 50 damage instantly right now. cutting that in half is 25/20 points instantly, which is on par with what kelotane does(or tricord), while the advanced kit would be on par with dermaline/current ointment.

Anyone have any complaints about this?

Could take it the extra mile and really cripple it to ensure that for serious injuries you actually have to visit Medbay for superior treatment. That, or find a fuckton more shit. I support Medkits outside of Medbay as being means to tide you over til you get to Med, or to top you off from minor injuries, while if you got shot several times you should be limping for the doctors, not your friend his magical bruise packs.

Loonikus wrote:

Snakebutt wrote:Ointment heal for 50 damage instantly right now. cutting that in half is 25/20 points instantly, which is on par with what kelotane does(or tricord), while the advanced kit would be on par with dermaline/current ointment.

Anyone have any complaints about this?

I still like the idea of chemistry being responsible for supplying improved medical supplies instead of giving MDs a free pass, but I could live with that too.

I just don't like the idea of medbay having free, readily available infinite medical supplies. I think it would just reproduce the same issue as sleepers had except with even less clicks.

Why don't you like infinite medical supplies? The problem with sleepers is not infinite healing, it is how efficient the healing is.

What does limited mobile medical supplies add to the game? What does it remove? Medics can easily swarm a dude with current medical code is pretty effortless and it takes some real effort or incompitence to run out, so the game isn't designed to assume you will. But it is fully possible and when it happens creates problems. Supply limits are not part of medbay balance, so why care in regards to medbay outside of it in terms of "enhanced" medical options like sleepers, chemicals, and to some extent cryo.

just my two cents of how i'd like sleepers to work
like medibots, they simply treat what damage is done. you shove them in, it automatically detects what's wrong with them, and fixes it effectively. there shouldnt be any option for chems, it should just do it itself. however, there should be an option to put the person inside asleep, and if they are asleep it works faster.

Remember, goonchem can make single use ointment and bruisepacks now, so it's not like they are limited supplies anymore. The idea would be to make doctors slightly less reliant on the chemist with the advanced packs, and make the doctors more relevant because regular medkits are kinda shit.

Opinions on introducing something like this? Functionally an energy gun that heals, but has low charge, heals moderate damage, and takes a second or two to work at point blank, has a burn and bruise setting. Probably has just enough charge to bring one person out of crit from one type of damage, perhaps 10 uses of 10 damage heals? CMO has one in inventory on round start, one more in each secure locker and the CMO's locker, so there's 4-5 on the station, enough to equip medbay if they want to use it.

Oh my god, this thread is about feedback on sleepers, not another fucking Baymed discussion. Please stop talking about Baymed and take it to another thread so the rest of us can talk about sleepers in peace.

I think the idea of a reloadable medbay that just came forth should probably be split up into its own thread.

That goes double for that post of Riley's I deleted but shouldn't have. Sorry! I'll edit this post in a second to contain it.

EDIT: A second is apparently two hours around here. Some stuff came up in IRC.

Riley wrote: There are steps you could take to make the process more ergonomic.

Smoother loading/unloading of meds in the Chemistry smart fridge, for example.
I've always wanted to just empty pill bottles into it, but end up stuffing the bottle in wholesale.

Another nice change would be to make the surgery console actually useful.
When you select a procedure via drapes, it could detect your choice and display all the steps for the current surgery, as well as your progress.
This would cut down on wait times from loading the relevant wiki page, and ideally result in less Doctors mumbling 'I don't know how.' when someone runs in screaming about blindness.

"Oh my god, this thread is about feedback on sleepers" and the effect they have on the entire medical system as a whole, since its basically a self-contained reproduction of every relevant medical feature and why that is a bad thing. Why is that a bad thing? Might have something to do with how the medical system even works in the first place.

If you just want to remove the sleepers without actually addressing any underlying problems then make the PR already and get ready for the bitchfest.

MisterPerson wrote:Oh my god, this thread is about feedback on sleepers, not another fucking Baymed discussion. Please stop talking about Baymed and take it to another thread so the rest of us can talk about sleepers in peace.

I think the idea of a reloadable medbay that just came forth should probably be split up into its own thread.

That goes double for that post of Riley's I deleted but shouldn't have. Sorry! I'll edit this post in a second to contain it.

Changing sleepers has a dramatic change on all of medical and makes problems with it extremely apparent. We really can't discuss sleepers without discussing their greater place in medical gameplay because they currently are the strongest tool that medics nominally have exclusive access to.

If we are absolutely limited to only talking about sleepers while ignoring other aspects of medical, then the answer becomes "No change, because changing just sleepers and covering our eyes and ears to greater discussions would make the game much worse."

Proposed alternatives to sleepers, including more complex systems for medical in general, are fine. You can talk about how the underlying system is the problem, which is both on topic and true. The thing about baymed is that it would just turn the thread into another "let's discuss the merits of baymed" thread which isn't useful feedback at all. This isn't my first rodeo with that shit.

I would absolutely suggest trying to write a takeaway of "if you're not going to change the medical system, here's what should be done with sleepers" and then starting a new thread for what kind of new system should be put in place. If you want, you can keep the new system idea here, but I'm just saying it'll get more attention and be more likely to actually happen if it's in its own thread on ideas because ideas is more popular than feedback.

dezzmont wrote:Why don't you like infinite medical supplies? The problem with sleepers is not infinite healing, it is how efficient the healing is.

The problem is efficiency? I thought the problem was that administering heals is boring and doesn't require any skill of the person administering heals.

Making rechargeable medkits seems like a bad move IMO, it makes Medbay no longer a critical area to control. Med blew up? Whatever, 3 EMTs got out with their laser-medkits! In rev, Med will be a less critical place to swarm, because all the healing gear save for cloners can wait until an MD goes to get drunk or an EMT fucks off outta there or whatever, at which point they can go hide in a locker and occasionally show up in Med to recharge or whatever. That's stealthy and IMO bad because the overt 'take over medbay' thing gets shit happening for all the players involved.

Other IMO shit:
- Don't fuckin' make disposals rides smash your shit up, disposalcoasters are awesome and fun.
- I am ppretty okay with default packs getting nerfed, they're pretty robust. In addition to having their heals reduced, are they gonna stay instant heals, or will they become over-time heals?


Uh I feel like I should herpaderp up a list of possible suggestions for injury and ailments and whatnot, but I'm not sure if that would be useful, since I wouldn't know about how easy they'd be to implement and whatnot.

Herpaderp list of ideas thrown around so far:

Baymed
Loading the sleeper with chems
ID locking the sleepers
Merging sleepers with cryo
Sleepers only work when sleeping
Removing sleeper
Nerfing medkits, gating improved ones behind medbay only
Sleepers automatically detecting damage and dispensing the correct chems, removing even the need to push buttons
Medical lathe that shits out bruisepacks
Sleeperchems cause leporazine hunger
some kind of crazy smart chemical-IV bag thing
Rechargeable gun-type healing item for fixing small wounds without using any resources (also a cool star trek reference)
Lasting injuries like broken bones that cannot simply be healed with a medkit or chemicals, reeks of baymed but does have merit for making medical more exciting and relevant.

Balut wrote:

dezzmont wrote:Why don't you like infinite medical supplies? The problem with sleepers is not infinite healing, it is how efficient the healing is.

The problem is efficiency? I thought the problem was that administering heals is boring and doesn't require any skill of the person administering heals.

Making rechargeable medkits seems like a bad move IMO, it makes Medbay no longer a critical area to control. Med blew up? Whatever, 3 EMTs got out with their laser-medkits! In rev, Med will be a less critical place to swarm, because all the healing gear save for cloners can wait until an MD goes to get drunk or an EMT fucks off outta there or whatever, at which point they can go hide in a locker and occasionally show up in Med to recharge or whatever. That's stealthy and IMO bad because the overt 'take over medbay' thing gets shit happening for all the players involved.

Other IMO shit:
- Don't fuckin' make disposals rides smash your shit up, disposalcoasters are awesome and fun.
- I am ppretty okay with default packs getting nerfed, they're pretty robust. In addition to having their heals reduced, are they gonna stay instant heals, or will they become over-time heals?


Uh I feel like I should herpaderp up a list of possible suggestions for injury and ailments and whatnot, but I'm not sure if that would be useful, since I wouldn't know about how easy they'd be to implement and whatnot.

You are right, healing doesn't require any skill, but pretty much any change to medical supplies will not alter that unless we create mandatory field surgery. The main problem with field healing is twofold in my opinion, it isn't interesting and while it is efficient it requires a lot of inventory juggling. That said the situations where you do field heals are generally more exciting than using the sleeper, so encouraging their use would be beneficial.

Rechargable medkits would actually make medbay more critical to control, assuming the chargers are located there and not compatable with gun chargers, because it would mean once medbay is gone healing becomes super limited. If anything supply based medical is what allows you to ignore medbay, as you can just jam 8 medkits into your bag and say goodbye to those white halls for the rest of the round, and screw the entire medical team in the process, and this is the optimal way to be a field medic.

Frankly, instead of just brainstorming ideas, I think everyone should decide what exactly it is that they want from sleepers. What role do you think they should play, if any?

I just listed down basically every idea we've had so far. Why don't we trim down the ones that would take too much work to implement or are just stupid, and put the rest to a vote to see where everyone is?

Because votes are useless. Also, limiting ourselves to just the ideas listed so far is a bad idea.

We've had 4 pages of ideas, and a lot of them are starting to loop back into eachother. Nerfing medkits and giving the old ones back to doctors only seems like a pretty popular change, but that isn't even a sleeper change.

Why even bother asking on the forums if you're gonna remove it anyway? Not that they had any use now that this goonchem mess broke them anyway.

https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/7129

Don't forget these changes will effect antags. Don't make it too hard for someone to heal up.

A baystyle med system, by which I mean basically anything that requires surgery,or some other specific operations to fix particular, severe levels of damage fixes the problems of medbay and chem entirely.

Right now you have X damage of Y type. You use healing item/chemical Z and it's fixed.

If you had to heal your brute damage from your gun shots then bandage/stich up your bullet holes to stop the bleeding, setting broken bones etc. Then suddenly you have a much more interesting system, that is less click2heal.
Then obvious you can have the ghetto solutions to every problem, in case you are unable to get proper medical assistance. So shit like ripping a sleeve off your jumpsuit to use as a bandage, using wire to stich your wounds like a crazy fucker, or cauterising it altogether with a motherfucking welding tool, at the expense of burns. Break your arm? Splint that shit with a metal rod/plank plus some bandage/ripped jumpsuit/wire to make it usable until you can get it properly fixed. Also peglegs for when dismemberment comes in. Yarr.

I play chemist a lot, our current system, be it tg or goon chem, our current medical system is gay as fuck. Sleepers personify this, they are literally click to heal, and when upgraded can heal pretty much anything, at any level.

My big question is how is this going to affect mining? I seem to remember everyone saying that mining shouldn't need more medkits, because they have sleepers. But if we're doing anything but option C, this needs to be considered.

I've never used a sleeper as miner because it requires two people to operate. The odds of that happening after round start are pretty low, much lower than a return trip with minerals with a stop by medbay.

Pretty sure the Goonchem progressive update is gonna modify sleepers and cryo anyways. Doing this now just messes with that. And by pretty sure I mean someone working on it told me.

he didn't change sleepers at all, only the chems they inject, which doesn't address the problem

goonchems are toxic when injected, or only heal in crit. They aren't compatible with goonchem on a basic level.

Yeah it's really shitty and made sleepers even worse lol

Lo6a4evskiy wrote:Frankly, instead of just brainstorming ideas, I think everyone should decide what exactly it is that they want from sleepers. What role do you think they should play, if any?

I think sleepers ought to be good, fast healing that is stuck in one place, in comparison with cryo's immobile, good and slow healing and a medkit's mobile healing. I think default medkits are too effective and bruise packs and the like should get nerfed down to like half efficacy or something.

Ideally there'd be a Baystyle system of injuries fixed via (relatively quick) surgeries or other involved, non-chemical methods. That's a big project though.

[brainstorming]
Since it seems like rechargeable medkits are the favored idea here, how about making a better healing item in general? Have it activate to swap between a 'heal' mode and a 'diagnose' mode, so you don't have to juggle your analyzer/ID and the appropriate meds.

Also, UI improvements: Though the locational shit is nice in that it makes diagnosis important and is probably more engaging than just 'loltricord', but it's kinda annoying because the readout from health analyzing is kinda hard to read IMO - all the numbers and their locations mix together, and with chat constantly moving it's a bit difficult to get a good look. Also, the icon to swap between places you aim at is kinda finicky - most of the locations are tiny and hard to click on. Can that be fixed somehow? Perhaps a locational-aiming cycle hotkey?
[/brainstorming]

dezzmont wrote:You are right, healing doesn't require any skill, but pretty much any change to medical supplies will not alter that unless we create mandatory field surgery. The main problem with field healing is twofold in my opinion, it isn't interesting and while it is efficient it requires a lot of inventory juggling. That said the situations where you do field heals are generally more exciting than using the sleeper, so encouraging their use would be beneficial.

Rechargable medkits would actually make medbay more critical to control, assuming the chargers are located there and not compatable with gun chargers, because it would mean once medbay is gone healing becomes super limited. If anything supply based medical is what allows you to ignore medbay, as you can just jam 8 medkits into your bag and say goodbye to those white halls for the rest of the round, and screw the entire medical team in the process, and this is the optimal way to be a field medic.

By skills I mostly meant having some process to do - surgery for example, as opposed to the current thing of just applying a tricord pill or some bruisepacks or whatever. Chem, Viro and Genetics all have some process to keep you busy, as opposed to MD, which is usually just recognizing what thing to apply and applying it. If you can do it fast you have some 'skill' to be proud of, whereas if not you've got the wiki open and can learn that shit after using it and stuff.

The inventory juggling is pretty annoying though.

And a fair enough point on item-based healing, I guess.



How about nerfing tricord? If healing gets more difficult that shit will just get used instead. Maybe make it only work if you're asleep? We still have the sleep verb right.

Tricord is obviously a problem, and i'm betting by goof's obsession with it is his biggest complaint. The goonmed idea of chems working in/out of crit is a really nice idea, it's just overused and makes their chems even more situational than they already are.

Why don't we make tricord heal people who are crit, and stop healing at the 5-10 mark? Rather than antitox binding with inaprov, tricord binds to inaprov meaning that your patient has to be stablized by something other than inaprovaline to use it in the first place, making it impossible to just fieldmed it out by medipen/tricord combo. Both together bind to dexalin perhaps, and move tricord down to a t1 chemical. Then DD, same recipe, doesn't bind to inaprov and heals much faster and a bit farther, stopping at 25-50 if enough is used, but no farther.

The Dermal Regenerator, an actual thing from Star Trek, is basically a handheld healing gun for fixing small cuts and bruises. I think it fills our 'regenerating medkit' role perfectly, being an X use rechargable item. Instead of recharging via rechargers (which makes MDs with eguns much more powerful), it recharges over time, perhaps at half the rate captain's/adv-egun charges, so it can't just be spammed. Has a diagnostic, burn and bruise mode, one working as your analyzer, the other curing 10-20 damage to the targeted bodypart per use. 5-10 charges at a time, fails via EMP. Should be easy enough to code, just a 0 range (if that's a thing)energy gun that does negative damage

Alternatively a medical themed charager works if we want to limit how much healing a medic can dole out based on distance from medbay, like it currently is. Also lets medics heal someone up right quick if they are in medbay, because they can just click like mad without managing inventory and recharge then and there, making them a top tier choice when in their element.

Here is the thing, I don't reaalllllly mind Paprika removing sleepers as long as Goonchem goes away and medical doctors actually get something awesome to replace it. Especially because there were a rather decent sized amount of people agreeing sleepers were problematic in some ways and that we wanted something better. Taking out cryo and looking to see what obvious gaps in medical form based on how players react is actually a pretty legit move.

If we just get cryotubes in the end, and the idea of some replacement is dropped, shit change of course. That said whatever you want to say about Paprika is that they do hover around things they change.

I had a little idea that sleepers would inject an equal amount of sleep toxin into your bloodstream at the same time each time you applied a drug. Maybe cap it at whatever the sleeper's current chem cap is so people don't stack people with a hundred units at a time. This meant while its an effective healing tool it also keeps the paitent out of comission while the healing drugs work. It also incentivizes more careful medical application. Sure you can just mash all the buttons but you'll knock out your paitent for longer than neccisary.

Currently though sleepers are effectively worthless. 20u of Saline Glucose will heal on average 17 brute and burn damage over 50 ticks. Saline Glucose heals LESS burte damage than nutriment. Salbutamol is useful against oxyloss but its not available to critted paitents. nNobody wants Epinephrine in their system. Right now I'd gladly trade the sleepers for a third cryo tank.

So currently we're effectively under option A. Medbay seems to be suffering hard. Though its hard to tell if thats from the sleeper chemicals being so weak rendering the sleepers useless or just Goonchem being rough. I don't think it'd be a good idea to remove them outright until this whole Goonchem transition is resolved.

healing patients at the cost of putting them to sleep is essentially what epinephrine does right now. No one likes it, and it's a massive griff tool. We've also seen what outright removal is doing to sleepers, because of their outright levels of ass they're nearly unusable right now.

We're dead in the water until goonchem is changed to be less... goon.

Snakebutt wrote:We've also seen what outright removal is doing to sleepers, because of their outright levels of ass they're nearly unusable right now.

This actually isn't true because goonchem is so ass that it basically destroyed every other part of medical including sleepers. We will not know how sleepers being removed will actually work out yet, as the change is far ranging enough that pure theorycraft can't actually settle this, no matter how much I love theorycraft.

There is room for experimental changes as long as you are quick to revert or patch depending on what you find, and as long as you don't do something silly like copy paste an incompatable code into our codebase like with

Snakebutt wrote:healing patients at the cost of putting them to sleep is essentially what epinephrine does right now. No one likes it, and it's a massive griff tool. We've also seen what outright removal is doing to sleepers, because of their outright levels of ass they're nearly unusable right now.

We're dead in the water until goonchem is changed to be less... goon.

Actually epinephrine is quite diffrent. It only heals between -65 and -25. So only in a narrow range. It also has a depletion rate of .2 so it sticks around twice as long as other drugs. Pairing things with sleep toxin would mean you'd only be narcoleptic as long as you were under the effects of healing chems. However a doctor running his fingers down every button because he doesn't know the right drug would give you way more sleep toxin than you needed. Also if you had mixed brute and burn then you would probably be drowsy twice as long from needing two healing chems. But still not as irritating as epinephrine.

Snakebutt wrote:Why don't we make tricord heal people who are crit, and stop healing at the 5-10 mark? Rather than antitox binding with inaprov, tricord binds to inaprov meaning that your patient has to be stablized by something other than inaprovaline to use it in the first place, making it impossible to just fieldmed it out by medipen/tricord combo. Both together bind to dexalin perhaps, and move tricord down to a t1 chemical.

I have nnnnnno idea what this means. I don't think I approve of tricord basically only being to fix crit, because emergency crit MDing is like, the most exciting part of being MD, right. I recall before now that Tricord was hilariously shitty and never used, but now it's too robust? I would instead suggest tricord be used to fix light damage - the sorta thing you give the assistant who got punched by a clown a couple times. That shit's tedious.

Also, I would suggest making the charge-up medkit take time to apply its heals. Currently existing medkits (which would be reduced in effectiveness) could be used for more immediately needed healing that needs diagnosis, or custom-made pills to just eat without diagnostic and targetted heals. That leaves the chargeables as infinite, convenient (no inventory juggling!) and presumably really effective, at the cost of taking some time.



I can't remember how stronk sleep tox is presently, but having to deal with randomly passing out for like the next five or ten minutes would be immensely shitty, don't do that.

5u tricord heals 25 of all types of damage. The whole idea of chemists leaving tricord on the desk is specifically to avoid wasting packs/better chems on assistant who got zapped on a door or victims of le fanny punch clown. I guess the issue is that if people are capable of moving on their own and chemist is bored, they stand there and eat pills until they are topped off, disregarding that most of the time said people only have tickle damage and might well be capable of sleeping it off. Nevermind that the pile of tricord leaves plenty of opportunity for antag chemists to put poison into the pills to randomly fuck people, or antag MDs to get the chemist lynched.

My suggestion was basically to have tricord work as the lazy way out of healing someone from crit, fixing people up until they can walk. Perhaps the opposite might be more sound, making it work if you are above 75 health? Any more and you've had more than a brief run through a breached hall or a single door shocking, and rightfully should get medical attention, but if it's just a bump, take some tylenoltricord and walk it off.