[PAID CODE] Families Gamemode Feedback Thread

[iamgoofball]

Bottom post of the previous page:

15:49 < Iamgoofball> Antur, do we have a clean way to disable/enable jobs
15:50 < Iamgoofball> im gonna disable security during Families to just avoid the mess

There we have it. My hope of this mode turns to dust.

If you have to scrap an entire department to make the game mode work there is something seriously wrong with it.

What the fuck? You've been asking and demanding "remove security, change security, make security a gang", so I'm going to try out a different method and see how it plays? Like, you know, how the entire development process has been for this gamemode? Can you calm down and think before doomscreeching?

modedit: removed pointless whining about admin conspiracies

[BeeSting12]

mod edit: removed

not really feedback on the mode but how the fuck do you expect this to get a) merged and b) into rotation if you refuse to take feedback and instead just screech roleplay and the playerbase will adapt. youve been doing this for almost two pages despite multiple people telling you it won't work.

[iamgoofball]

this post is still correct though. not really feedback on the mode but how the fuck do you expect this to get a) merged and b) into rotation if you refuse to take feedback and instead just screech roleplay and the playerbase will adapt. youve been doing this for almost two pages despite multiple people telling you it won't work.

I've addressed the actual feedback. People telling me the playerbase doesn't adapt to new things forget that we got them to adapt to goonchem ports

[Grazyn]

Disabling sec roles to make gangs work is an old chestnut but then there's the problem of leaving an undefended cache of guns and gear so whoever loots it first wins. This is why Robustin was forced to make the entire brig disappear at roundstart in addition of disabling the jobs.

[Wyzack]

Gotta ask goofball, how much shitty valids and people making the rounds bad on purpose out of spite are you willing to tolerate before you concede that the /tg/ playerbase can't handle this? I think the idea is really damn cool and what I wanted from the original gang mode but I really think there is merit to the idea that people just love their mindless clicker killing too much to engage in anything at all that doesn't involve valid kills or winning.

[Dr_bee]

15:49 < Iamgoofball> Antur, do we have a clean way to disable/enable jobs
15:50 < Iamgoofball> im gonna disable security during Families to just avoid the mess

There we have it. My hope of this mode turns to dust.

If you have to scrap an entire department to make the game mode work there is something seriously wrong with it.

This is one of the many reasons gang mode was scrapped. Robustin resorted to BLOWING UP SECURITY AT ROUND START to try and make his shitty TDM game mode work.

This is clearly based on goonstation gang mode and it has the same problem, and only worked with serious admin oversight that cant really work on /tg/.

So unless you hard code incentives to keep people alive for sec there is no reason for them to do so and they will murder anyone in a gang uniform. Consider giving sec the goal of keeping a percentage of the crew alive so the cops can pad their arrest statistics and give sec greentext, they might consider NOT commiting summary execution.

This version of gang has the distinct advantage of not being a shitty conversion mode as well as not handing out murderboner weapons for peanuts. It just needs incentives to encourage not murdery gameplay.

[asskek]

Goofball
You need any spriting work done?

[Ayy Lemoh]

Remove the armory but make a new job called "Gun Dealer"

he can spawn guns for space credits at his whim but can only buy some in bulk shipments
also if any of his stuff gets stolen and no one goes to the comms console to send the message "raid" the person who stole it gets banned

add this

You know what would be a good thing to do considering how some headmins in the election wanted this one particular thing that is in this gamemode? Not ending all testing of this immediately because this can help us see if roleplay can work. The most I've seen get done to bring back rp was literally 'you can't be called this or else we'll fucking ban you.' Goofball is literally doing more to bring back roleplay than most of what I have seen or can even remember. RP events are nice and all however that's not bringing back rp. That's just a dedicated event.

Also, as far as I know, only one other person has made a gamemode and that was fucking Carbonhell, i think, who is a hippie headmin. Goofball is not stealing shit if no one else is taking the opportunity. Also, you're not Naksu. If you think Goof is trying to get a quick crashgrab then voice your concerns, sure, however you don't get to make the end decision. Naksu is the arbiter of whether or not the gamemode is fine and its his money. If Naksu thinks 'eh, I think it is a good gamemode' then that's it.

Not every gamemode has to be special anyways and the idea is gangs. Not a cult worshipping a god, not a bunch of trained soldiers going to war, nor is it the devil coming down to ss13 because he's looking for a soul to steal. At best, Goof can make some machines and cosmetics. Not a lot compared to the other gamemodes out there.

EDIT:
just thought i should add - this isn't me defending the actual gamemode and thinking it should stay. I have never even seen it in action or tried it. I'm just considering RP plus I think it's dumb to say 'he stealing with dis cashgrab' despite the fact that the bounty will end soon and almost no gamemodes have been made so it's not really stealing. At worst even if it is an actual cashgrab, it's not stealing unless im just not seeing the other multiple gamemodes being made.

[somerandomguy]

Spoiler:

Remove the armory but make a new job called "Gun Dealer"

he can spawn guns for space credits at his whim but can only buy some in bulk shipments
also if any of his stuff gets stolen and no one goes to the comms console to send the message "raid" the person who stole it gets banned

add this

You know what would be a good thing to do considering how some headmins in the election wanted this one particular thing that is in this gamemode? Not ending all testing of this immediately because this can help us see if roleplay can work. The most I've seen get done to bring back rp was literally 'you can't be called this or else we'll fucking ban you.' Goofball is literally doing more to bring back roleplay than most of what I have seen or can even remember. RP events are nice and all however that's not bringing back rp. That's just a dedicated event.

Also, as far as I know, only one other person has made a gamemode and that was fucking Carbonhell, i think, who is a hippie headmin. Goofball is not stealing shit if no one else is taking the opportunity. Also, you're not Naksu. If you think Goof is trying to get a quick crashgrab then voice your concerns, sure, however you don't get to make the end decision. Naksu is the arbiter of whether or not the gamemode is fine and its his money. If Naksu thinks 'eh, I think it is a good gamemode' then that's it.

Not every gamemode has to be special anyways and the idea is gangs. Not a cult worshipping a god, not a bunch of trained soldiers going to war, nor is it the devil coming down to ss13 because he's looking for a soul to steal. At best, Goof can make some machines and cosmetics. Not a lot compared to the other gamemodes out there.

EDIT:
just thought i should add - this isn't me defending the actual gamemode and thinking it should stay. I have never even seen it in action or tried it. I'm just considering RP plus I think it's dumb to say 'he stealing with dis cashgrab' despite the fact that the bounty will end soon and almost no gamemodes have been made so it's not really stealing. At worst even if it is an actual cashgrab, it's not stealing unless im just not seeing the other multiple gamemodes being made.

The only other person I've seen making a mode is dapocalypse, and theirs are even more of a cashgrab seeing as the ideas are stolen from reddit

[PKPenguin321]

goof's proposed changes to the mode have made me more hopeful for it. here's to hoping it turns out to be really fun and enjoyable. if it doesn't, then goof, please don't just abandon it like what happened with old gang and try different things to make it fun. what i mean by that is that you're coming at this from a "break lots of existing gamemode cliches" angle which isn't innherently bad, but you're doing a LOT of things differently at once and i'm worried that maybe too many different things will hurt the mode overall (like for example: not discouraging conversion is a cliche breaker, and so is not being able to tell who is on your team, but if it turns out that these two things together don't play well, i hope you'll give undoing one or the other a try to see what works better).

hoping this goes well!

[WarbossLincoln]

Some thoughts:

I agree that this mode as is has too much self antagging and grief for this server. The click until sideways mentality of TG is too strong to just let people run wild when anyone can become an antag at any time at will.

That being said, I like the idea and I'm sure we can come up with some tweaks.


Ways for gangs to get points. And a limitation, a gang member can only get points if they are wearing gang colors at the time.
+ killing a rival gang member
+ stealing shit. have an area around the sign up location for a gang that adds up value of items in it, like the pirate vault. Encourage gangs to steal shit. This will also encourage gang-civilian conflict
+ Gang bounties on goods. The gangs have certain randomly generated items that are worth a lot more points that round like a cargo bounty. That would diversify what gangs are doing instead of them just robbing the vault and science shit. You could organize 3 or 4 gangsters to break into the CE's office because the blueprints are worth 10x as much this round or something like that.

lose points
- killing a civilian. This would be to discourage murdering civilians just because you can. It would be worth it when you're killing a civilian because you got caught stealing something valuable from a civilian. If the blueprint is worth a lot this round and the CE catches you stealing him you might have to off him over it.
-- killing a security officer. Fluff wise this brings even more heat down on your gang than killing a civilian. Game balance wise it's also to discourage an all out deathmatch between gangs and sec every single round.

I know that determining who killed someone is tough or possibly impossible though. You could tell if someone dealt the killing blow. You should also be able to tell who the last person who struck someone is if they die later. Like if someone dies go back until they were at 0 HP and see the last person who hit them. If you kill someone without making any kind of attack against them then you got away with it and it doesn't hurt you gang.

Issues:
Security shouldn't be allowed to be gangsters at all because they're just going to sign up on one side to get more valids and bring their weapons with them.

How do we avoid it turning into a deathmatch?

1 Security needs a reason to not just murder all gangsters.

2 Gangs need a reason to not just murder all sec and civilians. I think part of that would be losing points to your gang for doing that. So it's only worth killing them when there's something to gain or in defense.

An idea: would it be possible to trigger some kind of critical mass event when there's too much chaos and death on the station? I don't know what the exact conditions would be, maybe X% of people dead. In this situation every non gangster and unimplanted crewman becomes members of a team "antag". One where the civilians band together to wipe out the gangs and sec who are causing chaos. This would punish gestapo sec and murderbone gangs. That way if the round devolves into a deathmatch, it really is a deathmatch and everyone gets to be involved. Now both sec and the gangs know that if they push things too far and too deadly then every single member of the crew is going to be directed to kill them all. That's kind of realistic, gangs IRL are constantly trying to see what they can push to get more money and power without going so far that the police are forced to show up in military force and deal with them.

Some mentalities that we should work into the round and players. Gangs should be allowed to work together when they're threatened as a whole. If sec decides they need to eradicate the gangsters then the gangs should put their differences aside and fight sec over each other until it's settled.

I think we should use normal escalation rules but treat the entire gang as an individual. Gang member kills a sec officer, now there's a valid reason for sec to start hauling in or shooting any member of that gang. But they don't have license to kill members of a gang that's only done some petty crime. The blue gang just wrecked the kitchen, beat up the chef, and stole all the kitchen knives? Now any civilian can retaliate against the blue gang if they think they can win.

[Dr_bee]

General point loss from everyone for every death would be a simple way to do it, you can fluff it as the gang's lawyers charging more to get them off for every murder when the cops come. Gang member deaths would be point neutral to members of other gangs but would still be a penalty to both the gang who lost the member and security.

[iamgoofball]

While I rework the core gameplay loop, I'm going to put this on the backburner and focus on a project that should be more successful in modern SS13, while I wait on good assets and hash out the Families 2.0 design.

[WarbossLincoln]

General point loss from everyone for every death would be a simple way to do it, you can fluff it as the gang's lawyers charging more to get them off for every murder when the cops come. Gang member deaths would be point neutral to members of other gangs but would still be a penalty to both the gang who lost the member and security.

I think the idea would be that the more deaths the more pressure security has to do something, both off and on the station. So you'd lose points because eventually centcomm would do something about it if you go nuts.

I don't think security would have points, or if they did they wouldn't lose them on gang member death. Cops IRL don't give a shit if a bunch of shithead gangbangers kill each other.

Maybe after a certain amount of death it auto triggers a death squad or something.

[Dr_bee]

General point loss from everyone for every death would be a simple way to do it, you can fluff it as the gang's lawyers charging more to get them off for every murder when the cops come. Gang member deaths would be point neutral to members of other gangs but would still be a penalty to both the gang who lost the member and security.

I think the idea would be that the more deaths the more pressure security has to do something, both off and on the station. So you'd lose points because eventually centcomm would do something about it if you go nuts.

I don't think security would have points, or if they did they wouldn't lose them on gang member death. Cops IRL don't give a shit if a bunch of shithead gangbangers kill each other.

Maybe after a certain amount of death it auto triggers a death squad or something.

The point of the penalty to sec on gang member death is to encourage them to keep the peace between gangs and not go full gestapo murder squad, what cops do IRL doesnt matter.

[francinum]

I'll hold any opinions about the mode itself until after goof gives up economy, but some general things.

If you need to rely on a gamemode-specific clause in the rules, then you aren't coding a gamemode, you're coding a base for a glorified admin event.

Speaking on that, for what reason should I not join a gang and just never wear my colors, and just stab the shit out of people wearing their colors? Are the colors even removable?

[oranges]

stay in your own server DMCA admin