/tg/Station 13

Bottom post of the previous page:

"Antag is not an excuse to see how many people's rounds you can ruin. There is a line at which murderboning without a semblance of thought or roleplaying will be punished. This varies from case to case, but it is unlikely you will not be aware that you are approaching it."

After a discussion in adminbus, I proposed an addendum to rule 1 as a restriction on the most severe cases of no roleplay murderbone; exploiting the most mechanically efficient systems in the game to decimate everyone on the station for the sole purpose of removing people from the round. This will not apply to hijack objectives as mass killing is a common means to that end.

Destructive tools such as atmos and the singularity that may result in many deaths would not be factored in either. They are too unpredictable and bring the round to an end as well as giving people a chance to respond by gearing up or running, whereas maximum speed ebow esword does not.

This will be in line with restrictions on antagonists camping the arrivals shuttle, attempting to cause server crashes, forced-ERP and mass recalling.

Cases like this will generally be reviewed by Scaredofshadows.

>extraordinary circumstances

I wasn't saying we shouldn't do anything. I'm saying we shouldn't over-enforce it because we have measures in place already to help players resolve it IC.

Ah, the good ol' line in the sand again.

As has been mentioned in multiple recent threads which touched on this problem either indirectly or by chance, the idea that a certain bodycount or particular intent (one which is debatable and undetectable, because hey, people will just lie) is necessary to curtail this sort of behavior is inherently flawed. An0n3 raises a particularly valid point in saying that if we have hardline restrictions they need to bleed into other areas of the game.

So where is that line drawn; who draws it? SoS? He's as fallible as the rest of us. (Note this isn't to say his decision would be inappropriate or wrong)

Regardless of the result a fair portion of the server is going to be upset about perceived restrictions on their behavior as an antagonist. While this is a valid opinion to have and superior robusting skills have always been a catalyst for some of the greatest legends on our server, (Burer, Pete, and to a much lesser extent Dante come to mind. This distinction will be important later for those who recognize these names) they neglect to understand that there's a world's difference between someone who spawns into the round and immediately attempts to rack up a bodycount with zero interaction and roleplay and those who, through just as much roleplay as robust skill, have come to be respected as titans of the station.

So with that in mind I propose that the policy shouldn't be about removing or restricting killing, it should be about preventing dickery and encouraging antagonists to participate in the round. Do not tell someone that they're unable to kill the whole station; ask them to come up with a decent IC reason for it before they start. (And before anyone points out the inherent ambiguity of "a decent IC reason," all I'm asking is that the events leading up to your glorious slaughter-spree are more in-depth than "I'm doing this because I'm an antagonist.")

That alone will go a long way towards damaging the deathmatch attitude that causes these complaints in the first place. I won't deny I'm biased regarding this though.

Subtle wrote:all I'm asking is that the events leading up to your glorious slaughter-spree are more in-depth than "I'm doing this because I'm an antagonist.")

That alone will go a long way towards damaging the deathmatch attitude that causes these complaints in the first place. I won't deny I'm biased regarding this though.

This is most of the culture battle right here. Most of the cases of rampant aimless murderboning come from "Oh I rolled antag time to get the high score!" Most of these murders aren't for needed things (though they'll definitely loot you for anything they MIGHT find useful or interesting, sometimes) but just form a chain of bodies until they run out of things to shoot. I've had cases where I've attacked a target in maint and simply couldn't stop the tide of people stumbling in to spot the body/bodies or rush to get their valids because they heard "esword in maint" and thought they could get their bloodlust down or something. Of course, my intention was to deal with one guy (detective, lets say) for an ID and to keep sec off my trail, but instead I end up with a locker full of bodies and a lot of questions about how my life came to this point and how I'm ever going to get the blood off my jumpsuit.

Aside from the usual response of git gud, there is a serious concern of a VERY slippery slope to be had if this is implemented. As others have pointed out, once an antag's hands are tied, the crew's have to be as well. I've seen the admins blue-space cannon people who chain-recall as antag for no reason other then to continue murder boning(which is fine). However, it also seems like a core change of culture, and something that TG has held for a very, very long time and will probably be met with some serious opposition.

A good example is someone checked my interface as a secborg which then lead to about 30-40 people piling into robotics to be mowed down by me. I didn't ask for that, and I probably could have spared most of them, but it was simpler, and quicker just to end them. The definition of murderbone is also far to vague, which can lead to some admins having differing opinions and a whole lot of gray zone.

Murazor wrote:Aside from the usual response of git gud, there is a serious concern of a VERY slippery slope to be had if this is implemented. As others have pointed out, once an antag's hands are tied, the crew's have to be as well. I've seen the admins blue-space cannon people who chain-recall as antag for no reason other then to continue murder boning(which is fine). However, it also seems like a core change of culture, and something that TG has held for a very, very long time and will probably be met with some serious opposition.

A good example is someone checked my interface as a secborg which then lead to about 30-40 people piling into robotics to be mowed down by me. I didn't ask for that, and I probably could have spared most of them, but it was simpler, and quicker just to end them. The definition of murderbone is also far to vague, which can lead to some admins having differing opinions and a whole lot of gray zone.

I was the AI that round. The crew were lemmings.

As long as I get to keep spawning 30 spiders on the communications console when people keep recalling it, I don't care what the outcome is of this poll.

paprika wrote:Here's the thing, when is antag killing people OOC dick or IC dick? Why is it up to admins or the host to determine that line? Is there no room to improve as traitor? What happens when you complete your objectives, just try to get the shuttle called (which is really hard to do unless you explode parts of the station or kill a lot of people)?

What about the 'escape alone' objective, which is literally IMPOSSIBLE if you aren't lucky enough to stealth lock the airlocks in escape before someone finds out they're broken and emag the console. It's almost impossible to complete this without rampant murderbone or bombs in escape.

This is not something you want to change at an administrative level, because people will claim bias and that admins are retards and don't play the game etc etc fucking etc.

If you want my opinion, this is a thing that needs to be discouraged at a code level, by increasing the price of shit (you literally cannot buy anything but esword and ebow now if you go that route, they use up all your TCs) and just fucking removing escape alone. Escape alone is shit. Replace it with something else. Whenever I get it I see it as a 'welp time to mass murder people/emag everything for fun until I get arrested and ghost' rather than a unique challenge because there's literally no creative ways to complete the objective, at all.

I've escaped alone in a way that I thought was creative at the time...

Telescienced onto the shuttle after emagging the escape doors shut and having the AI nonharmfully warn everyone into escape pods. People still herded around the shuttle like cattle, but all they could do as they fought through N02, bolted doors, and a very determined to lube everything janiborg. I guess that's just telescience fuckery, though you could achieve pretty much the same effect with a hand teleporter and some small bits of luck.

Honestly, not enough CMOs carry around their RCD fully loaded... It's disgraceful at round end with the doors locked.

Violaceus wrote:

Raven776 wrote:Honestly, not enough CMOs carry around their RCD fully loaded...

what?

He probably meant CE.

Spacemanspark wrote:

Violaceus wrote:

Raven776 wrote:Honestly, not enough CMOs carry around their RCD fully loaded...

what?

He probably meant CE.

I meant CE.

I'm echoing the slippery slope and ambiguity sentiments. Also I find a single guy killing everyone impressive and one the reasons this game is so much fun. If something totally OP let that guy do what he did I would just rebalance it rather than punish the murderboner-er. Old TK was a good example of this.

Honestly, under the circumstances, I cannot disagree with this possibility. I say yes.(of course I'd voted No way back and can't revote.)

Erbbu wrote:I'm echoing the slippery slope and ambiguity sentiments. Also I find a single guy killing everyone impressive and one the reasons this game is so much fun. If something totally OP let that guy do what he did I would just rebalance it rather than punish the murderboner-er. Old TK was a good example of this.

Old tk was amazing, i once got stripped naked in space by a traitor that had opened the strip window ages ago.

Or stole the armory from a brig cell with tk+xray

After nearly three weeks of discussion and a poll it seems like the answer is no, we should not add this.

It seems fair to just keep handling it like we've been handling it.