Regarding felinids/catpeople

[Screemonster]

Bottom post of the previous page:

This fight is honestly a waste of time and energy and isn't all that great or funny of a meme.

the fact that it's such a pointless argument with only cosmetic implications is why so many people are drawn to argue so strongly about it
if it actually had an effect on game balance in any way then people might have to consider whether they know jack shit about things like game balance or coding before they ventured their opinions on it, but "should people be allowed to have cosmetic ears y/n" is a very simple question that anyone can grasp

it's a classic bikeshed argument only instead of a bikeshed it's the ntr hut

[WarbossLincoln]

What the hell?!

This argument again?

Since back in 2014 the different race meme issue has been a raging garbage fire. First lizards, for a hot take plasma peps and now for a long haul the cat/felinids.

Seriously who the fuck really cares?! Let those that wanna be cat peps be cat peps. Honestly what affect does it have on your ability to have fun? I've never been a cat person but if a player that enjoys being a cat person adds to the overall gameplay and rp of a round then cool more power to them.

Can we focus our energy on worthwhile improvements and code changes?

This fight is honestly a waste of time and energy and isn't all that great or funny of a meme.

People's hate doesn't come from cats being a bad race inherently. It's because cat players fall into 2 categories.

1: background character no one notices or remembers so you don't think about them. They don't add or detract from the game.

2: Incredibly annoying person who does everything in their power to drag you into their fantasy/fetish(whichever it may be for the individual)

As a player race cat people only have 1 RP/social motif going on, to be irritating. Moths are unique and most moth players are pretty chill and fun to play with, Plasmemes are unique and have the mechanical disadvantages, Lizards have the racism angle which leads to a lot of IC interaction and conflict. Cats have nothing, so the only cats who get noticed are ones who go way out of their way to be in your face and annoying. To be loud and shriek baby talk or anime stutters. That's usually only going to be interactive or amusing for the cat people players themselves.

There's no interesting or different way to interact with a cat player. RP(such as it is on TG) around cat people is a 1-way experience where they talk at you like they have a mouth full of shit. Or they're the 1st type of cat player where they just act like any nondescript human. They aren't annoying at all but you don't remember them either.

[MMMiracles]

People's hate doesn't come from lizards being a bad race inherently. It's because lizard players fall into 2 categories.

1: background character no one notices or remembers so you don't think about them. They don't add or detract from the game.

2: Incredibly annoying person who does everything in their power to drag you into their fantasy/fetish(whichever it may be for the individual)

As a player race lizard people only have 1 RP/social motif going on, to be irritating. Moths are unique and most moth players are pretty chill and fun to play with, Plasmemes are unique and have the mechanical disadvantages, humans have the racism angle which leads to a lot of IC interaction and conflict. Lizards have nothing, so the only lizards who get noticed are ones who go way out of their way to be in your face and annoying. To be loud and shriek hiss talk or scalie references. That's usually only going to be interactive or amusing for the lizard people players themselves.

There's no interesting or different way to interact with a lizard player. RP(such as it is on TG) around lizard people is a 1-way experience where they talk at you like they have a mouth full of shit. Or they're the 1st type of lizard player where they just act like any nondescript human. They aren't annoying at all but you don't remember them either.

[Karp]

Almost every player in the game falls under unremarkable or annoying how is that unique to cat ears

[delaron]

Almost every player in the game falls under unremarkable or annoying how is that unique to cat ears

Beat me to it. So the issue is annoying players? Is there a way for that to be coded against logistically?

This was the same argument made in 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017 and now 2018. The race in question has changed but the issue was the same annoying players.

Just play your game. If they force shit on you as a non antag then escalate up, start with a "no thank you", progress to "piss off", get violent with a "kick and punch", maybe eventually crit then kill. If its a harassment issue ask for admin assistance. I think this is partially only an "issue" because we are on the internet and and meme fights are a thing to do.

The station is a big sandbox just find your corner to REEE in and leave some of the other corners alone.

*edits because I suck at typing and grammar.

[WarbossLincoln]

I don't really care what the fruit ends up doing, I'm just guessing at what's pissing off the pro-removal people. People keep rambling about "LEL IT'S JUST PIXELS", that's not why they hate them.

I think it speaks volumes how Oranges has completely subverted the power structure on tg. He has essentially declared in this thread that the only thing he answers to is MSO.

Correct me if I'm wrong but did oranges 'subvert' that? He's the head developer for /tg/ right? And there's a separation of code and administration. Doesn't that by design mean he only answers to MSO? You might not like that arrangement but that's a different conversation. Regardless of things oranges has done that people don't like his power level seems to be built directly into the structure of /tg/. If enough people hate him they should appeal it directly to MSO instead of whining in every thread he touches. You're not going to change oranges' unilateral authority over the code by complaining all over, make threads, get the 3 headmins to make a case to MSO.

[lzimann]

hey you are all stupid on this, people in charge should make a decision already and stick to it you stupid weaklings

[Ayy Lemoh]

people in charge should make a decision already and stick to it

Huh, I was just thinking about you today.

Nice advice, though.

[afelinidisfinetoo]

The community is almost perfectly divided here. It's 50/50. I'm sure oranges is losing sleep trying to find a new filter he can apply to the votes to get whichever result he personally wants at the moment.

Instead of arguing that I have the majority by one or two votes, I'm going to talk about the issue instead.
The people who oppose felinids being in the game are doing it because felinids are vaguely centered around sex appeal. The average TGstation player is an American, a creature which gets its penis mutilated at birth to deny it sexual pleasure, then grows up in a religious dominated society being told that anything casually sexual is evil. This becomes deeply ingrained in the instincts of just about every American, myself included. These people then attempt to impose their anti-sex brainwashing on the topic of people having harmless fun with vaguely sexual catgirl avatars in a space station RPG.

This is the real crux of the issue. It's the tone of all the righteous voices speaking against felinids being in the game: that felinids are ``degenerate''. It is thinly masked antisex moral outrage, against something that is only very indirectly sexual to begin with.

I direct this question to coders like oranges especially. You are not just number monkeys, you're also artists. You are doing something creative here, making SS13. Do you believe censorship is helpful to a creative endeavor? Is it better to cater to people who enjoy an idea, or to people who have highhandedly decided on ``moral'' grounds that no one should be allowed to enjoy it?

To anyone against felinids, please do not reply with lowercaps irony. Just be genuine for thirty seconds and stop being afraid of what people think of you. Explain to me why the opposition to felinids is not based on moral outrage. Why does it sound that way, and why do those involved seem concerned not with improving their personal game experience, but with meddling specifically in what others should be allowed to do? This is clear from how they are not satisfied with felinids being blacklisted on server #2, but want a global ban.

[Shezza]

The community is almost perfectly divided here. It's 50/50. I'm sure oranges is losing sleep trying to find a new filter he can apply to the votes to get whichever result he personally wants at the moment.

Instead of arguing that I have the majority by one or two votes, I'm going to talk about the issue instead.
The people who oppose felinids being in the game are doing it because felinids are vaguely centered around sex appeal. The average TGstation player is an American, a creature which gets its penis mutilated at birth to deny it sexual pleasure, then grows up in a religious dominated society being told that anything casually sexual is evil. This becomes deeply ingrained in the instincts of just about every American, myself included. These people then attempt to impose their anti-sex brainwashing on the topic of people having harmless fun with vaguely sexual catgirl avatars in a space station RPG.

This is the real crux of the issue. It's the tone of all the righteous voices speaking against felinids being in the game: that felinids are ``degenerate''. It is thinly masked antisex moral outrage, against something that is only very indirectly sexual to begin with.

I direct this question to coders like oranges especially. You are not just number monkeys, you're also artists. You are doing something creative here, making SS13. Do you believe censorship is helpful to a creative endeavor? Is it better to cater to people who enjoy an idea, or to people who have highhandedly decided on ``moral'' grounds that no one should be allowed to enjoy it?

To anyone against felinids, please do not reply with lowercaps irony. Just be genuine for thirty seconds and stop being afraid of what people think of you. Explain to me why the opposition to felinids is not based on moral outrage. Why does it sound that way, and why do those involved seem concerned not with improving their personal game experience, but with meddling specifically in what others should be allowed to do? This is clear from how they are not satisfied with felinids being blacklisted on server #2, but want a global ban.

a few false assumptions but overall very entertaining post

[afelinidisfinetoo]

I guess if you're for felinids, it's okay to reply with lowercaps irony.

[Shezza]

I guess if you're for felinids, it's okay to reply with lowercaps irony.

it was somewhat ironic, but you did make a few mistakes

for one oranges is not responsible for filtering at all

[afelinidisfinetoo]

If he's overruling votes so he can (get other people to?) do votes with different filters, I wouldn't say he isn't responsible for filtering. Anyway he can definitely affect the result to skew it toward his own desires which is what I'm saying.
But this is mostly irrelevant to what I said in that post, I just felt like roasting oranges as an aside.

[PKPenguin321]

I'm sure oranges is losing sleep trying to find a new filter he can apply to the votes to get whichever result he personally wants at the moment.

- oranges does not make the filter
- the poll is being held up because they want to do an IRV poll this time and are debating what options the poll should have
- didnt read past this part so dont @ me about the rest of your post

[oranges]

when the alt doesn't get any of the facts right

nice one

I direct this question to coders like oranges especially. You are not just number monkeys, you're also artists. You are doing something creative here, making SS13. Do you believe censorship is helpful to a creative endeavor? Is it better to cater to people who enjoy an idea, or to people who have highhandedly decided on ``moral'' grounds that no one should be allowed to enjoy it?

You have achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is no thing left to take away.

[afelinidisfinetoo]

You have achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is no thing left to take away.

You will surely "achieve perfection" by censoring whatever things nu-age moral outragers throw a recreational tantrum about. By the way I'm not an alt, I was just drawn back to SS13 by the news that it now has catgirls.

[oranges]

I'm happy to accommodate nu-age outragers, as long as there's more of them

[subject217]

what if you accommodated both groups.......or accommodated the group that doesn't parasitize other groups in order to stay...................

[afelinidisfinetoo]

I'm happy to accommodate nu-age outragers, as long as there's more of them

Okay, you posted your gay quote about perfection, here is a very straight quote by Socrates.
>"If you were setting out to sea, who would you ideally want deciding who was in charge of the vessel, just anyone, or people educated in the rules and demands of seafaring?"
Most people are not game designers. If you allow a 50.1% majority to decide the path of the game you're just gambling. Do you really think this is a productive method of game design, to brainlessly follow whatever the largest number of people want? This is exactly what has landed SS13 in such a sorry state, the fact that it has no solid leadership behind its development, just a schizophrenic spam of random ideas by hundreds of people. Further scatterbraining the direction of the game by polling players on what is and isn't good is not a step forward.

By the way, as for "You have achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is no thing left to take away.", characterizing this blatant moral censorship as some kind of beautiful reductionist game design thing is ridiculous. This has nothing to do with simplifying the game, you aren't going to start removing the gigantic tumorous masses of bullshit that have accumulated on the codebase over the years. You're post rationalizing censorship as something it isn't.

[oranges]

hey the drooling masses are better than anything I could come up with, we haven't had anything resembling actual game design ever, so I don’t' know why you suddenly expect us to have some now

[afelinidisfinetoo]

Disregard any moral outrage about "degeneracy" or "slippery slope to us LITERALLY BEING THE FURRY SERVER!" and consider in your mind whether felinids are a positive or negative for the enjoyment of your garden variety SS13 player. And you can't just refer to the split vote, because people voting no to felinids does not mean they don't enjoy them, only that they think they shouldn't be allowed, for reasons I already mentioned.

[iamgoofball]

"demanding felinids be removed is anti-sex fear mongering even though felinids totally aren't sexual i swear guys"

did you just try to compare America's horrible problem with treating the sexuality of humans in a horrible way to people getting their rocks off in a video game not intended for pornographic purposes over a furry fetish

maximum lol, also go fuck yourself you cunt who can't drop this steaming hot take on your real account

crawl back to whatever discord you're posting this in for "teh lulz"

[afelinidisfinetoo]

"demanding felinids be removed is anti-sex fear mongering even though felinids totally aren't sexual i swear guys"

Are you denying that the people against felinids are pearl-clutching outragers who are cranky that some distantly sex-appeal-related thing is in the game? That is exactly what is happening. There is also a large social element where they all try to present themselves as ``the biggest most based anti-degen'' for social kudos. A lot of TGstation's forums and PR culture is like some kind of social dynamics experiment where researchers pit rats against each other and observe how they form into bizarre pseudocliques, each of them jockeying to be loved by the others.

did you just try to compare America's horrible problem with treating the sexuality of humans in a horrible way to people getting their rocks off in a video game not intended for pornographic purposes over a furry fetish

I have no idea what point you're trying to make here. Are you trying to say that felinids should be banned because it is theoretically possible that someone might jerk their dick to them? You are pretty much proving what I said about this entire pushback against felinids being born from insane antisex brainwashing.

By the way, like I said:

To anyone against felinids, please do not reply with lowercaps irony.

Why do you continue to put up this "I do not care about anything, even grammar" act when you spend at least twelve hours per day stirring shit and attempting to curry ``based goofball!'' replies?

[Karp]

The community is almost perfectly divided here. It's 50/50. I'm sure oranges is losing sleep trying to find a new filter he can apply to the votes to get whichever result he personally wants at the moment.

I dislike the repolling immensely and i think oranges fucked up doing it but that has to be the single dumbest statement I've seen relating to this thread

Even if you're upset about the poll results being steve harvey'd by oranges he's intentionally avoided touching the PR while planning out what to do

the real secret is:

Spoiler:

there's a discussion on the admin forums about what the poll should be between everyone

This is not some evil conspiracy by oranges

[Karp]

thank you cat man i'm sorry for my rude words

Goof you can't deny that the sexualizing point and calling it a furry fetish is blowing this entire thing out of proportion

it's been a thing in otaku culture because it's cute for a long while now and most people who like things like catgirls and doggirls tend to not be furries but instead massive weeaboos and otakus

you're just calling it furry fetish fuel to strawman the argument, people arguing against anime on a 4chan derivative server would likley be laughed out

The internet punching bag boogeyman "the furries" is easier to attack than anime on a 4chan server

[iamgoofball]

Goof you can't deny that the sexualizing point and calling it a furry fetish is blowing this entire thing out of proportion

it's been a thing in otaku culture

it is a thing in otaku culture because it's sexualized you fucking dipshit stop pretending that the google image pages for catgirl doesn't fucking show you what it means to average joe if you go full VPN and disable cookies and tracking

[gum disease]

orange man bad

[oranges]

sawrge
remie

nothing lost here

[Karp]

Goof you can't deny that the sexualizing point and calling it a furry fetish is blowing this entire thing out of proportion

it's been a thing in otaku culture

it is a thing in otaku culture because it's sexualized you fucking dipshit stop pretending that the google image pages for catgirl doesn't fucking show you what it means to average joe if you go full VPN and disable cookies and tracking

Sex Sells

Things being cute and attractive sell

Call it sexualized for being attractive to people but that's the marketing for most things

These are still companies trying to sell their products in figurines etc and while it's weird it's not furry and a weeaboo thing

people still like things that might be sexualized just for what they are

it's like saying people who listen to rap are misogynistic and racist

It's fetishised yes but something being fetishised doesn't mean it's a flat out sexual fetish thing, it's like saying leather clothing is fetish fuel for creepy S&M fetishists

[iamgoofball]

It's fetishised yes but something being fetishised doesn't mean it's a flat out sexual fetish thing, it's like saying leather clothing is fetish fuel for creepy S&M fetishists

all the default examples for it have it being a sexualized fetish thing or combined with other common over-sexualized annie may tropes though????????

and considering the retards in the ss13 community quite frankly it's unacceptable to ignore this

[delaron]

The world is a big place with a vast array of life experiences. Might be worth the energy to realize how little a single person is capable of taking in when comparing the whole of what is possible.


Anyway actual on hand topic

I am having trouble understanding the issue you are trying to resolve.

Who is this benifit for?

What was is gained in the feature removal?

Is this issue against some one or a group as a whole?

Do you have logs to back up your presented issue? Is this opinion or fact?

Can someone clearly detail the need for feature removal and justify work hours (or less) to resolve the issue?

[Qbmax32]

I think it's a noble thing to delicately skirt all of my posts and instead admit you're a moral alarmist with no real arguments, goofball I am frankly more impressed with you every day. You are growing out of that old shell and blossoming into a wonderful person. I love you and hope you stay here a long time

Is it just me or does this sound like a sawrge post

[Qustinnus]

The community is almost perfectly divided here. It's 50/50. I'm sure oranges is losing sleep trying to find a new filter he can apply to the votes to get whichever result he personally wants at the moment.

Instead of arguing that I have the majority by one or two votes, I'm going to talk about the issue instead.
The people who oppose felinids being in the game are doing it because felinids are vaguely centered around sex appeal. The average TGstation player is an American, a creature which gets its penis mutilated at birth to deny it sexual pleasure, then grows up in a religious dominated society being told that anything casually sexual is evil. This becomes deeply ingrained in the instincts of just about every American, myself included. These people then attempt to impose their anti-sex brainwashing on the topic of people having harmless fun with vaguely sexual catgirl avatars in a space station RPG.

This is the real crux of the issue. It's the tone of all the righteous voices speaking against felinids being in the game: that felinids are ``degenerate''. It is thinly masked antisex moral outrage, against something that is only very indirectly sexual to begin with.

I direct this question to coders like oranges especially. You are not just number monkeys, you're also artists. You are doing something creative here, making SS13. Do you believe censorship is helpful to a creative endeavor? Is it better to cater to people who enjoy an idea, or to people who have highhandedly decided on ``moral'' grounds that no one should be allowed to enjoy it?

To anyone against felinids, please do not reply with lowercaps irony. Just be genuine for thirty seconds and stop being afraid of what people think of you. Explain to me why the opposition to felinids is not based on moral outrage. Why does it sound that way, and why do those involved seem concerned not with improving their personal game experience, but with meddling specifically in what others should be allowed to do? This is clear from how they are not satisfied with felinids being blacklisted on server #2, but want a global ban.

im not american so i can just safely ignore half this post.

on the other half; its not censorshipm, its just making sure citadel stays a downstream.

[Shezza]

The community is almost perfectly divided here. It's 50/50. I'm sure oranges is losing sleep trying to find a new filter he can apply to the votes to get whichever result he personally wants at the moment.

Instead of arguing that I have the majority by one or two votes, I'm going to talk about the issue instead.
The people who oppose felinids being in the game are doing it because felinids are vaguely centered around sex appeal. The average TGstation player is an American, a creature which gets its penis mutilated at birth to deny it sexual pleasure, then grows up in a religious dominated society being told that anything casually sexual is evil. This becomes deeply ingrained in the instincts of just about every American, myself included. These people then attempt to impose their anti-sex brainwashing on the topic of people having harmless fun with vaguely sexual catgirl avatars in a space station RPG.

This is the real crux of the issue. It's the tone of all the righteous voices speaking against felinids being in the game: that felinids are ``degenerate''. It is thinly masked antisex moral outrage, against something that is only very indirectly sexual to begin with.

I direct this question to coders like oranges especially. You are not just number monkeys, you're also artists. You are doing something creative here, making SS13. Do you believe censorship is helpful to a creative endeavor? Is it better to cater to people who enjoy an idea, or to people who have highhandedly decided on ``moral'' grounds that no one should be allowed to enjoy it?

To anyone against felinids, please do not reply with lowercaps irony. Just be genuine for thirty seconds and stop being afraid of what people think of you. Explain to me why the opposition to felinids is not based on moral outrage. Why does it sound that way, and why do those involved seem concerned not with improving their personal game experience, but with meddling specifically in what others should be allowed to do? This is clear from how they are not satisfied with felinids being blacklisted on server #2, but want a global ban.

im not american so i can just safely ignore half this post.

on the other half; its not censorshipm, its just making sure citadel stays a downstream.

>if we don't remove felinids we will become citadel downstream


floyd have you had a concussion recently?

[iksyp]

"Should we keep felinids/catpeople in the game, or remove them from the code entirely?"
literally all you need for the poll

[obscolene]

>"If you were setting out to sea, who would you ideally want deciding who was in charge of the vessel, just anyone, or people educated in the rules and demands of seafaring?"
Most people are not game designers. If you allow a 50.1% majority to decide the path of the game you're just gambling. Do you really think this is a productive method of game design, to brainlessly follow whatever the largest number of people want? This is exactly what has landed SS13 in such a sorry state, the fact that it has no solid leadership behind its development, just a schizophrenic spam of random ideas by hundreds of people. Further scatterbraining the direction of the game by polling players on what is and isn't good is not a step forward.

So you're suggesting that we don't do a poll and let the head coder decide?